Forum (#3148) - Plus/4 World



	Home Search Games Tapes Covers Cheats Maps Software New Stuff Hall Of Fame HVTC Game Endings Solutions Remakes Publications Magazines Effects Top List Members Groups Features Plus/4 Encyclopedia Hardware Tools Options Forum Home Search Games Tapes Covers Cheats Maps Software New Stuff Hall Of Fame HVTC Game Endings Solutions Remakes Publications Magazines Effects Top List Members Groups Features Plus/4 Encyclopedia Hardware Tools Options Forum	Login

Back to forum

Reply to this topic

Go to last reply

Posted By

Csabo
on 2002-12-23

Fantastic Four

The Questprobe series released by Adventure International in 1984 had three parts:

1) The Incredible Hulk
2) Spiderman
3) Fantastic Four

Does anyone have the third one? Have you heard about it? BTW, here's a nice shot of the box of Spiderman: http://home.wanadoo.nl/cip/Html%20pagina/CASS-Spiderman.htm

Posted By

JamesC
on 2002-12-25

Fantastic Four

was never released for the C16/Plus4 to my knowledge.

However here is an Ebay Canada link to a C64 set of disks, of which contains the C64 version of Fantastic Four. It was released by ShareData, who released a lot of 'budget' software for various platforms in the mid 80's.

Ebay Link

Posted By

Csabo
on 2002-12-25

Re: Fantastic Four

I guess you are right, I haven't heard of this game either, but these guys here say that it existed for the C=16: AdventureLand Link. It is strange that they did release the first two and not the third one.

Posted By

JamesC
on 2002-12-25

Scott Adams Graphic Adventures

Well, here in the States, only Hulk was released, and that was through Commodore for both the C64 and Plus/4. The 264 series was discontinued here before AI released Spiderman. The Spiderman that you may be familiar with was released in Europe only, and AFAIK not by Commodore but by AI.

Posted By

Csabo
on 2002-12-25

Re: Hulk

That's a rare one: two different versions of the same game released commercially... I've added a screenshot and a note to the 'other' Hulk. Both are in the database. Should I add "Released by Commodore", and was the year also 1984?

Posted By

MIK
on 2002-12-25

Re: Hulk

The Hulk was re-released in the UK under the AMERICANA lable, but copyright was still held by Scott Adams.

Posted By

JamesC
on 2002-12-26

Csabo -->

It was just as quick for me to add those notes as it would be for me to tell you "yes, do it!"

Posted By

Csabo
on 2002-12-26

Thanks

You know honestly I still sometimes forget that other people can add information

Posted By

JamesC
on 2003-05-18

Fantastic Four (Questprobe 3)

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (evil laugh)!!!!!!!!!!!!

I found something that doesn't exist........ hehahahahaha..... will let you know if I can make it work.

Posted By

Mosh
on 2003-05-19

Is this?

Is this the Spiderman you are talking about?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3024551274&category=11991

Posted By

JamesC
on 2003-05-19

Yeah that is the Spiderman

but look at my subject line, I'm past Questprobe 2 (hint hint)

Posted By

Csabo
on 2003-05-20

Re: Fantastic Four (Questprobe 3)

Wow, you actually found it? Or are you perhaps thinking about converting the C64 version?

More details please, now I'm intrigued.

Posted By

Csabo
on 2003-07-27

Re: Fantastic Four

I have to let everyone know about what happened with, and because of this program, and because of me and James C. It's partly about the same old copyright stuff. This whole story makes me sad, and I'd rather not talk about it, but sooner or later the questions will come, and the truth will come out (as it always does). So here it is. Or at least here is my side of the story, as I'm sure James C will want to have his say.

James C discovered that the C64 version of Fantastic Four was also a Plus/4 release. There are (at least) to versions of this game. Version J is widely available on the net, do a google search and you can get it. In this version the Plus/4 part is bugged. Whether it's a corrupted disk image, or an actual bug in the game, we don't know, but now it doesn't matter anyway. The C64 scene probably never noticed it as the C64 part works, and that's all they care about. The same corrupt D64 image got copied everywhere. (On a sidenote, this happens even in the world of Plus/4. All sites have the Bigyulabolt game file, but it's the same non-working one.)

James C purchased an original copy of the game. It's a newer version, Verion K, and even the Plus/4 part in it works. He won't give it to anyone. His reason is that Scott Adams and Marvel won't give him permission.

I, Csabo, have copied the public, freely available, non-working version of the game to the rulez.org server. I marked it as "Fantastic_Four_Version_J", so we could tell it's buggy. I even let Luca know not to rename it, as I was hoping to have the good version someday - and he's big on renaming files

This, to put it very nicely, is something that James C did not approve of. Yesterday we've exchanged some emails, and in the last one I got from him things like going to jail, having one's website taken away, and rubbing one's nose into the horse's ass were mentioned.

And that's where it stops.

This stupid game does not worth it. Yes, it's a stupid, complex and extremely slow paced game, sometimes you have to wait for more than 10 seconds for the game to respond because of the excessive disk access. Is this the game all this ugliness is over? And that's not the only question that comes to mind.

Why is it such a problem to make the game public? The first two parts of the same series are already public - without any permission from anyone. We still don't have to be afraid of going to jail. Was Luca scared when he made public the rare game he discovered (Death or Glory)? Or: is being afraid of copyright really the reason James C won't give out the game? He purchased it, and that's legal, then he could have sold it to me, that would have still been legal. I would have had no problem whatsoever to create a D64 image, scan the covers and manuals and make this 20-year-old software public. I would have even sent back the original. Now that would have been in the community's interest, and that's what drives me. That's why I uploaded that non-working version I grabbed from some C64 site to rulez.org, so we would have something. At least it loads the title screen.

Well, no more. I'm resolving this situation by taking two actions. First, James C is no longer an editor on this site. For the moment he can still view it and post messages. Let me stress this out very clearly: this was his request, and not my idea of revenge. Second, I deleted the D64 file from rulez.org and everything related to this game from our site as well. We will not host this game or mention it. If you want to download something, you'll have to take your pick from the other almost 4,000 free titles. If you want to play this particular game, I recommend getting it from the net and playing it with your favourite C64 emulator, it's the same experience.

Other than that, here it is publicly. James, I apologize for putting up that file on rulez.org.

That's it. I hope there are no hurt feelings, and that includes James. If you want to discuss other stuff, you're welcome. To the rest of you: sorry if this stuff brought you down, I hate stuff like this. Let's move on to bigger and better things.

Posted By

JamesC
on 2003-07-27

Re: Clarification of Csabo's Post

Please read the post from June 24, 2003 regarding Fantastic Four, before I explain further.
Forum Link

The post Csabo wrote above this one implies that I threatened to put Csabo in jail, take the website away, and rub his nose into horseshit. That is not what I said. I said that if Marvel decides to pursue legal actions for copyright infringement, they would most likely come after me because I am the American that would be prosecuted under American law, and I could be jailed and/or have my website taken away. By Csabo's wording that I won't give the working version of Fantastic Four to anyone, and posting in the Fantastic Four's database entry for anyone who has a working version to submit it, made me feel that I was having my face pushed into the horse's ass for refusing to comply with his demands.

I never protested a database record of Fantastic Four. I'm the one who entered it back in May of this year. I had no problem with a screenshot of the title screen. My problem was that someone else had added pictures from the C64 version and instructions for getting Version J to begin loading. Version J will not pass the title screen without crashing, so the screenshots posted of locations within the game could only be from the 64 version. The instructions for loading the game by LOAD"SAGA.OBJ",8,1 and then G1300 from Monitor were found by me back in May, and shared with SVS and Lando so that they could test the 64 versions that they had with their emulators and real machines, and verify the results that I received.

Here is a quick cut-and-paste of the last message I sent to Csabo yesterday. You can decide for yourself what was said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From "James Crook"
Subject Re: Fantastic Four on rulez.org
Date Sat, July 26, 2003 6:10 pm
To "Csabo"
CC james@cbm264.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Csabo,

> Don't worry, you won't get into any trouble. The fact that "Scott Adams
> cannot authorize distribution" is irrelevant, because it also means he
> cannot forbid us from distributing it either. Greg Duddle cannot authorize
> his program downloads either (I emailed him). Neither can Udo. The
> companies
> own the copyrights not them. They don't mind the software being up though.
Marvel is more protective of their properties than most companies. They're
bringing back almost-forgotten characters for movies, releasing old
televisions episodes on DVD, and authorizing new videogames based on their
characters. It's not like Big Bird or Casper, we're talking
multi-million-dollar properties like Spiderman, Hulk, X-Men, etc.

Marvel has (had?) a program for websites to use their properties, this is
what I have been attempting to do without success. Please reference this
link:
http://www.cinescape.com/x-men/editorial.asp?aff_id=8&this_cat=News&action=page&obj_id=28037&type_id=271&cat_id=42388&sub_id=0

*IF* I can successfully get www.cbm264.com onto this program, then I can
put the Questprobe games up for download. But until then, I do not wish for
another site to 'steal my thunder' as you have done. Please read the last
two messages again -- I never said I was refused permissions, I said I had
not received return emails from Marvel about this.

Also, the upload date for Fantastic Four is July 13, 2003 - less than two
weeks ago. I announced in the forum and on my website in June that I had
found this program -- another pointer back to me if Marvel decides to
prosecute someone on American soil for breaking an American law. Also, this
program does not show in the Recently Uploaded list on Plus/4 World.

> You shouldn't have contacted Scott Adams either, his programs were doing
>just fine on the net for years.
Scott Adams released his programs for public use in 1998, I believe, before
this scene or our websites were even in operation. By "Scott Adams Games" I
refer to Adventures 1 through 14, specifically excluding Questprobe games.

And the last I heard, it was YOUR idea to contact companies for permissions.

> They way you're thinking no-one will ever have Fantastic Four, since Marvel
> will NEVER grant you any rights, trust me on that. So now we all can't play
> it. Is this what you wanted?
No. I went through all the work locating the game, finding the problems,
buying a new disk that just coincidentally has a working version on it.
Shouldn't I have the right to put it on *my* website if Marvel allows?

I just checked Plus/4 World database and I notice that you have added a
request for anyone who has a working version to submit it. Good luck, and I
thank you for rubbing my nose into the horse's ass.

> To put it simple: let's put up everything, and until someone comes and
> specifically tells us to take it down it's fine.
If you wish to do so that's fine. But I will act with caution, as I do not
wish to go to jail or have my website taken away. Reference US Department
of Justice news release:
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2003/February/03_crm_118.htm

While we're at it, please remove all accesses I have to Plus/4 World other
than reading and posting on the forum.

James
--
Commodore Plus/4 and C16 Homepage of North America
cbm264 Software - Internet Home of Expanded Three-Plus-One Software
http://www.cbm264.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted By

JamesC
on 2003-07-27

Re: Fantastic Four

An afterthought about Questprobe games for the Plus/4:

The freely available downloads on the Internet are NOT byte-for-byte disk images of the original games. They have been patched, crunched, converted from text-only versions (Spiderman), etc. They no longer represent the issued disk or cassette. They replicate the look and feel, such as Linux now replicates Windows without using Microsoft code.

Programs that I have available for download on www.cbm264.com are either posted with permission of the owner (Jim Hehl and SVS programs included) or I have attempted to locate the owner without success. In either case the downloads I make available are as close to the original issue as possible. If the download was not made from my personal collection, credit is given to the donator.

Those of you outside the US, I do not expect you to be knowledgeable of the laws here. Simply, if you own the same game I do, I can give you an exact copy to repair or replace your defective disk. If you own a computer magazine, I can provide you with the executable code as published in the magazine. I cannot modify the program and pass it off as my own (reference game conversions by Csory and others, the database lists the converter as the author, not as the person who fixed or converted it). I specifically cannot reverse-engineer or remove copy protections without permission of the copyright owner.

I will make this concession to the group as a whole: if someone wishes to take Fantastic Four and crunch/modify/patch it so that it lists on a .d64 as a single file, with no disk access required after the initial load and run (as the Hulk releases found freely on the 'net), please contact me by email. Send me a scan of your Fantastic Four C64/Apple/IBM/TRS-80/etc disk, cassette, or cover of the owners manual as proof of ownership, and I will provide a disk image of Version K for you to convert. (The BATA file on Version J is corrupt. If you want to take DATA from the 64 version and convert it by hand, you won't need my Version K.)

Under no circumstances is the original .d64 that I provide to be spread, uploaded elsewhere, copied onto disk and given away, or emailed to other people.

Also, you accept any responsibility if Marvel objects to your conversion.

Otherwise, I will await permission from Marvel (which was requested almost a month ago, but no response has yet been received), and if Marvel allows I will post Version K on my own site.

Posted By

Lavina
on 2003-07-28

Re: Fantastic Four

just what's all this fuzz about this matter??!!

Posted By

Gaia
on 2003-07-28

Re: Fantastic Four

That's beyond me either... Who cares about a 20 years old text adventure anyway?

I have my 2 cents about this story but let there be peace at last.

Posted By

Gaia
on 2003-07-28

Re: Fantastic Four

A few more thoughts I have to add:

1. Independently of James or anyone else I have also found the start address of the J version for the plus/4. I haven't even known about others as I was just about to convert this actual game from the C64, and then I noticed there was a +4 version on the disk. I even made some progress with the conversion by the time I had noticed that... Anyway, finding a machine code program's start address is relatively easy (especially in this case), and Csabo (and many others while we're at it) can do it with ease. It's a bit like stating the obvious.

2. The comparison between the case of conversions and Linux will not stand. First Linux is not a clone (that is: a rewrite) of Windows but Unix (the actual clone of Windows NT will be ReactOS). Secondly, but more importantly all conversions are about 95% the same code as the original, only read/write operations to specific registers or other machine-dependant stuff are altered. So even if someone converts the C64 version, it'll be still the original code from a practical point of view.

3. I agree that it was misleading from Csabo putting up screenshots from C64 and loading instructions when the actual game is broken. But that's a different matter and I think that he should not feel guilty about that. He did screenshots for many other games while they were still not able to run on any emulator (think of Magic Candle, Karateka, Bard's Tale III. etc.)

4. The freely available downloads on the Internet are sometimes byte-for-byte images of the original. Think of the TAP format. They represent 100% of the issued cassette.

5. I can't see why the publicly available J version (or even the K-L-whatever version if it surfaces anywhere) could not be put into the database. I still think this program belongs to the +4 database.

Posted By

MIK
on 2003-07-28

Re: Fantastic Four

End of the day a d64 or floppy copy could of been created by anyone and passed about so who would of know where it came from...... If you got it then share it because thats what we've all been doing for years now, but........

There is only a small amount of games that sit on this site we should not have full stop! One such game I fear the most is Spy vs Spy. The big C64 sites won't touch anything from First Star Software, but also Spy vs Spy is the property of E. C. Publications. Tynesoft only had permisson to use the name and the secret agent characters, they also have copyright on it. Spy vs Spy is still a big franchise today. The C64 ports we have on Plus4 use copyrighted GFX. Boulder Dash another port is again First Star Software who only released an update of Boulder Dash this year on GameBoy Advance. Stuff like this we should not have on the site at all, but its here because we are pushing our luck as we do with everything! One of the big C64 sites was threaten'd to take down Spy vs Spy and all releated First Star games or have the site closed and face legal action! They never hunted us down and maybe they never will, but till then they stay because again we will push my luck and take a slap on the wrist and say sorry. All I can say is grab it while you can

But you can also see where James is coming from. Comic Book hero's are major copyright stuff and they don't even compaire to small time Scott Adams. If James doesn't wish to let something go then fair enough. We should respect James wishes and move on. Its not worth fighting about it because if there is one working copy there must be others, who knows...

The game should be part of Plus4 World, named atleast or what ever we can get away with. Having C64 images showing is really the last and final thing you could ever dream about adding to a game. If we don't have it or the game does not work 100% it can be nice to see a preview, but it must state that it is indeed the C64 version being shown. This can be seen as a mark of respect to such software.

Posted By

Csabo
on 2003-07-28

Re: Fantastic Four

Since I everyone requested this game to be listed in the database, I added it. Meanwhile I also figured out how to fix the broken D64 image so that you get a perfect copy. You can find these instructions here: Fantastic Four.

It should be clear to everyone that since James C is not an editor on this site, I was the one who added the entry and I was the one who wrote the instructions on how to fix the file. So if Marvel or however comes around, they cannot blame James C.

Posted By

Luca
on 2003-07-28

Re: Fantastic Four

I wanna see the inner core of the matter.
Who talks about legal problems with Marvel, probably should be scandalized by the European taste in converting c64 games without publisher's permission, right?
Thus, let's start to erase Revs, Magic Candle, Elite, but Battery 2 too, coz the intro shows Forgotten Worlds'hacked gfx!
I think that the passion of ancient technologies is one of the several aspects that aren't considered in order to renew copyrights laws. It's a problem about anachronisticism.

Posted By

Gaia
on 2003-07-28

Re: Fantastic Four

Wow, it works! Good job, man!

Posted By

JamesC
on 2003-07-28

Re: Fantastic Four

Csabo, thank you. I do feel relieved now, yet the group can enjoy the game.

Both your interests and mine have been resolved with your actions today.

Posted By

MC
on 2003-07-29