Posted By
Drpepper99uk
on 2005-03-30
18:16:44
|  How many(roughly) were made?
Hello,
Anybody any idea on how many Plus/4's were made during there(rather short) production run? I've always been facinated by this machine since I was young but never managed to find out the true figure nor as to how many games were released for it in total.
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Posted By
SVS
on 2005-03-31
01:05:43
 | Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Rumors says about 300.000 produced units, but I'm not sure of this. A godd idea is to spread the serial numbers of ours 
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2005-03-31
06:49:28
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
The highest Plus/4 serial number I have is 248637, and 313599 for the C16
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2005-03-31
06:56:18
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Maybe we could put a small database together about the serials? I have a couple of units, so I am going to note down some of them in the upcoming days. Stay tuned
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Posted By
Luca
on 2005-03-31
12:03:45
 | Re: How many(roughly) were made?
I thing I have 3/4 plus4, plus I'd kept serial numbers from other +4 I had had.
Lemme check....mmmm...mm...
Ok, I have 3 working +4 (one with circular power supply attach, how to use it?), plus a broken one, and the highest serial number I read is 128962.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2005-03-31
12:06:56
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Oh, I discovered that the only broken thing in the "broken" plus4 is the return key! 
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Posted By
Luca
on 2005-03-31
12:12:14
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
OMG!
Another working plus4 had jumped out! 5 working blackboxeeees!
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2005-03-31
12:57:06
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Luca, about the circular power connector, don't C64 power supplies work?
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Posted By
Luca
on 2005-03-31
13:08:40
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Eh, SVS gaves me pain and fear, he said it's not good, am I right Valentino?
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2005-03-31
16:56:55
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Over here it was common knowledge that a C64 round power supply will work. The pinouts are the same on the motherboard if you want to change the connector on the machine itself.
If you look closely at your motherboard, this is probably what has been done to yours.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2005-03-31
17:22:57
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Great! I have a couple of it unused, so I'll check! 
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2005-03-31
17:29:55
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
OK, one of my C16's has a serial of EA5 206678 (Made in England)
One of my plus/4's has DA4 80930 (Made in W. Germany) another one DA4 99749 (same).
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2005-03-31
18:05:53
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
My C116 has DA4 27361. It's the only German-produced 264 machine I have (all the others are English produced).
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2005-03-31
21:05:19
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
OK just to screw up the theories about serial numbers:
I have 5 or 6 Plus/4s here and another on the way. The machine handy (within reach of this desk) has serial number CA1102276, presumably assembled in West Chester.
As far as I know, all my machines begin with CA, and they are all NTSC machines... even my Canadian unit.
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2005-04-01
15:21:38
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
James: it is not ruining the theory. Should the number not actually be CA1 102276? That'd sound reasonable to me.
I checked another four equipments today, so here are the serialz
C116: DA4 34162
C16: EA4 361712 (this is the highest so far  )
C+4: EA4 175212 (my only English made +4, with a brick connector)
C1551: DA4 17820
Oddly enough, the 1551 drive fits well into the series.
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2005-04-01
15:58:09
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
What ruins the theory is that at West Chester, serial numbers were assigned as the units came off the line.
Let's say that one week's production is Plus/4, the next week is C16, the following week is C64. All the serial code tells us is the ORDER in which it was built, NOT the exact one out of the TOTAL NUMBER of that machine, because serial numbers in between may be for a different machine altogether.
There can be gaps of days, weeks, even months between production runs, depending on demand of other machines as well. I saw an Ebay auction last night for a C128 and the serial plate was shown. The C128's serial number was not that much higher than the serial number of the Plus/4 I posted last night.
And to top it off, when Commodore West Chester received a "defective" unit back, and it was repaired and resold, it was given a new serial number. I have NEVER found a Plus/4 marked "Remanufactured", but have seen several C64s marked that way. Commodore probably did this so that they could more easily determine when it was (last) sold at the wholesale level for warranty purposes if a sales receipt is not available.
A quick and easy way to know if that "new" NTSC Plus/4 is remanufactured: look at the accompanying manuals. Original machines have almost square manuals (height and width almost the same). Rebuilt machines have one or both manuals of a different size (taller than wider). Of course, if someone has been "switching manuals" to make one unit look more complete or less used than another, this method won't catch that.
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2005-04-01
16:15:18
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
James: it 's been a really interesting read Didn't know these.
To spice this all, I have had a peek at the C232 screenshots I have here, these have serials:
AA5 000007 and AA5 000097. These units were made in Japan. Does anyone know of more?
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Posted By
Boray
on 2005-04-02
14:05:31
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Which is most common? PAL or NTSC machines?
/Anders
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2005-04-04
08:35:35
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Serials of my Plus/4 units:
CA1096741 (Canadian, +4 logo on case above keyboard)
CA1028893 (US, plus/4 logo on case)
CA1117604
CA1078054
CA1052926
CA1018115
I have more Commodore equipment packed away (C64, 128D, disk drives); the Plus/4s happened to be easily accessible for me to get these numbers.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2005-04-12
11:44:34
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
I bought the sixth working +4. I only had some problems with its 3 - PLUS -1 EEPROMs: I'd changed it with fully working MOS, but still it doesn't work...bah, btw, a good one again.
Its serial is: 124607, an English blackbox, with the inner keyboard's plastic surface signed with weird double R's. I bought it without 8501R1, but I had one and the stuff runs; not the same with U24 and U25, unfortunately...
I get the opportunity to mount three burned EEPROM with Tiger/UF's new system on, very neat. Here, I saw that nobody had uploaded Tiger's NEW-ROM system, so I'll do right now, lemme dump the disk. I'll include the three dumps as .prg files in order to use them in YAPE directly.
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2005-04-12
13:47:28
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Found out not long ago that one of my C16's had a replacement CPU in it, and it was a CSG branded 8501, dated 1990 Interesting how a 'unsuccessful' computer had spares made for it five years after it was discontinued
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2005-04-12
14:38:48
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Did I hear unsuccessful?! Them's fighting words!! Ah, it's you, cool then.
Joking aside, that's pretty interesting. I've never heard of 8501 from another brand.
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2005-04-12
15:08:23
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Actually, CSG is Commodore Semiconductors Group
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2005-04-12
16:50:48
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Oh, I see. So how are the regular CPU's branded? MOS?
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Posted By
Luca
on 2005-04-12
16:57:23
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
I'm monkeying around with the broken 8501R1 in my left hand, and it's marked MOS, as all the others.
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2005-04-12
17:29:49
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
MOS was once an independent chip manufacturer, that Commodore - being unhappy by the price of the chips - simply took over in 1976. Later, around 1990 it has been renamed to CSG.
A little history can be found here: http://www.commodore.ca/history/company/mos/mos.htm
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2005-04-12
18:03:37
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Another useful link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology
They were officially called CSG for most (if not all) of the 80's, but didn't bother changing the logo stamped on the chip until 1989
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2005-04-12
18:17:01
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Let it be notes that commodore.ca has many typographical mistakes. For example, on the page you linked to: the Amiga line is based on the Motorola 68000 series processor, and the 6510 powers the Commodore 64.
If you aren't concerned about 100%, hold up in an argument, factual information, but just want a general idea.... then commodore.ca is fine. But to me, I'd rather write something that I believe to be 100% than to be known as "the guy who is always wrong".
MOS and CSG are interchangable names for chips produced by the MOS chip foundry in Pennsylvania, USA. There is a date code stamped on each chip of the format WWYY, so that 3884 would be the 38th week of 1984.
"Old" and "new" chips are more definately defined by the chip number itself. Obviously an 8501 is a newer process than a 7501. However these two chips are interchangable. The replacement for a Commodore 64's 6510 is not an 8510, but an 8500 (there being no mass production of 7500 chips).
And as Commodore also sold chips to other companies, it is entirely possible that there is another use for the 7501/8501 line.... if a Nintendo game system can have a 6502, then why can't we eventually find a VCR or stereo equipment or other electronic item that uses a 8501?
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Posted By
Bionic
on 2005-04-13
02:35:57
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Indeed.. commodore.ca is somewhat weird. They have a lot of interesting facts listed, which are probably true. But some claims seem to be wishful thinking:
Summer 1976
"Chuck Peddle developed the PET concept and tried to sell it to Apple's Steve Jobs but Jobs did not offer enough money for it"
Back then Apple was still really small and had no real offerings of their own. Besides they had a superior computer in development (Apple II).
Ironically the apple side claims:
http://applemuseum.bott.org/sections/history.html
Fall 1976:
"Woz shows an Apple II prototype to Commodore representatives. Commodore turns him down."
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Posted By
Luca
on 2005-04-21
10:48:59
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
I'd just received another (broken, maybe TED) +4, very neat keyboard, I'll try to repair.
Its serial is 137820.
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2005-04-21
12:26:51
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
nekem van egy keyboardom felesleges otthon, majd megnézem, hogy azon jó-e a RETURN gomb. (már ha kell.)
I have a bad plus4 keyboard. I will look that. ... on the RETURN key is unbroken. (if you are need for this)
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Posted By
Luca
on 2005-04-21
13:25:22
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Tnx, but at the moment, the RETURN broken keyboard is on the non complete +4 board
I'll remember the offer, btw! :D
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2005-04-22
01:53:44
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
ok. Sorry.
Bad english knowledge. 
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Posted By
Luca
on 2005-04-22
17:30:08
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
The broken +4 I bought now works after 4 minutes of repairing session: I simply changed the burnt PLA.
I bought it for ...1€ only!
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2005-04-22
17:42:29
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
No way! I'm so jealous of all you electricians right now... I could never fix a Plus/4. Congrats though, that's an amazing find! Buy them all, and build your shrine... Let's hope all the Plus/4's in the world end up in the right hands.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2005-04-22
17:59:13
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Well, the idea should be setting up a democompo with that +4 as best prize!
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Posted By
Plus4Vampyre
on 2005-04-25
04:43:37
 | Re: How many(roughly) were made?
How many 232 and 364 are made? I read a number of 20 C= 232 and a number of 2 know 364. Does anybody know the correct number?
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2005-04-25
05:44:21
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
I guess at least 100 C232's could have been made. I did encounter one with a serial nr. of 97 a few months ago.
Of the V364, there were 3 made in total (source: Dave Haynie), of which only 1 had a production quality case and keyboard (the other two were show models). The one full machine was Dave Haynie's property that was later sold to Dan Benson via E-bay who later sold it to some collector in Germany (by the way, he has the original TED documents then, too...). Of the two show models one belongs to Bo Zimmerman and the other one's whereabouts are not known (maybe, just maybe, Michael S. Tomczyk former marketing director of Commodore has that one, as it seemed from an interview in which he describes a prototype that is in his possession and shows enormous similarities to the V364).
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Posted By
Plus4Vampyre
on 2005-04-25
07:18:26
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Interesting - a collector in germany - maybe it is the guy from the CCOM Commodore Computer Online Museum - http://cbmmuseum.kuto.de/cbm_c232.html ? I am surprised that there are no statements from ex commodore employees, ex product officer(s) or ex developer. I think more than one person was involved in this project....
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2005-04-25
08:36:29
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
I can tell you that Tomczyk doesn't have it. The owner of the 3rd V364 wishes to remain anonymous.
The last I heard from Benson, he had not received payment for his V364. He is not responding to emails about it now.
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2005-04-25
10:45:19
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
James: do you know something that you cannot tell?? This sounds all very mysterious to me... I had not known about the fact that the actual payment for Dave's V364 has never taken place, although I vaguely remember a guy called Rayzor, who was talking about a V364 given to a reliable person in Switzerland.... unfortunately he wouldn't tell more about it which I do find strange. At this point I'd got a bit stuck as to which machine is which and who owns what.
It's all very sad though. Some people out there possess a piece of C= history that they are not emotionally tied to (at least far less than any of us here) and therefore have little interest to be bothered about it. If only it were in the possession of one of the members of this forum 
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Posted By
Plus4Vampyre
on 2005-04-25
13:45:58
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
That would be really cool in a V364 is in a possession of a forum member, but I think finding one is the first problem - paying the next. As far as I remember 3500$ or EUR was the ending price (and reserved price) of the auction. Well who can afford to spend so much money for a V364? Iif the machine is still in the hand of Dan Benson then I can not imaginge he will sell it for less
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Posted By
Crown
on 2005-04-25
15:18:24
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Technically it is not impossible to pay $3500, but I wouldn't pay that much. Most would be around $1500, pretty much the original price, for me.
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2005-04-25
23:08:43
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
I do not know if Benson has ever received payment or not. As I said, he is no longer responding to emails. Also, his website was changed over to adult ( read p-o-r-n ) links.
Gaia: all I can hint at is that a very well respected member of Commodore Engineering in West Chester took home the V364 that Haynie did not take. This person has several other prototypes as well, and he has refused to entertain offers of sale to me as well as other persons.
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Posted By
Plus4Vampyre
on 2005-04-26
02:31:38
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
ok lets sum up - one V364 is definitly in possession of Bo Zimmermann, another is maybe still in possession of Dan Benson and the last one in possession of a ex member of commodore engineering who wants to stay anonymous. Correct? But who know if a 4th or 5th V364 prototype exists? And if only one production quality model was build which V364 is on the website [http://cbmmuseum.kuto.de/cbm_c232.html] ? Its sad that all V364 are in possession of "collectors" and no in possession of a forum member. Csabo & Lando what about a "machine" category where every forum member can add their machine - for example I have a plus/4 original commodore with german 3+1 software inside and original german manual for the 3+1 software. I have also a Candian machine with different Logo in the case.
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Posted By
Crown
on 2005-04-26
05:28:53
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
He does not have one, check his collection list
http://cbmmuseum.kuto.de/sammlung.html
All pictures are rendered 3D models there, read the text here
http://cbmmuseum.kuto.de/galerie.html
where he hints that. Most likely he made the model from the photos from Bo Zimmermann's site.
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Posted By
SVS
on 2005-04-26
05:50:18
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Well, after all these chats about prototypes and other collector pieces, why don't "resume" the 364 by emulating it? Why anybody does not want to write something emulating the V364 special chip?
THIS should be the way to have our own 364!
Remember that we already have the content of his Roms, and Gaia  already has disassembled them.
Pls. apologize my enthusiasm, pals, but HERE there are the bigger masters of coding, maybe they only need a motivation. Furthermore a co-production work should be possible
Waiting for your replies, thanx
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2005-04-26
05:59:53
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
SVS: Emulating the V364 is not that straightforward. It contains a Toshiba T6721A voice synthesis and a MOS 8706 glue chip, disassembling the ROM is not even necessary to emulate them if the interfacing and the speech synthesis logic is known. Unfortunately there is no known document in existence that describes the 8706 (lesser of a problem as it can be sort of figured out) or how the Toshiba Speech chip expects the PARCOR coefficients. That's why it would be important to have these V364's in the right hands so that it can be reverse engineered.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2005-05-26
10:23:36
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Another +4 arrived (bought on eBay.it at low price because without power supply), an its serial is 107674. I also received a broken C16 (8501 broken) with 203699 serial.
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2005-05-26
22:50:30
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
When did you find something at a good price on ebay.it? Everytime I check, their Plus/4s are just as expensive (or higher) than Ebay Germany!
Oh well, don't ask what came in the mail today.....
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Posted By
Luca
on 2006-03-03
13:41:51
| Re: How many(roughly) were made?
Here comes another +4 I bought, repaired, and now perfectly working. 7360 was missing, so I put a working 8360 on it. What did I change? The usual broken PLA, as usual: 251641-02.
This +4 is made in England, and its serial is 125813.
Finally, I got success in finding a real 7501 one, instead of 8501! Moreover, as you can see, all the chips are placed into azure slots (most of them are azure!), easy to change without (un)welding.
Click on the image to watch it hires.
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