| Posted By
Phoenix
on 2025-01-01
21:40:48
 |  Dune Arcade Intro
Happy New Year everyone!!
Let me share a small piece of work, the intro part of a forthcoming game called Dune Arcade.
Dune Intro
If anyone is interested in helping me with (mostly) map graphics / map design activities that would vastly facilitate the development and bring the release date forward. Any contribution is highly appreciated..! 
Let me also share a few screenshots from the game.
 
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Posted By
Luca
on 2025-01-02
02:16:41
 | Re: Dune Arcade Intro
Happy new year, happy new comeback!
So now Charles/DS is Phoenix, and refers to himself as Phoenix Design. What an unexpected announcement here!
I searched for the Narcisound's SID track which has been used in this preview, but I can't find it. Is is a brand new one which is dedicated for it?
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2025-01-02
04:34:02
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
Obviously, you do you, and as your average nobody I do not have much right to criticize, but the decision on sound hardware requirements will make your programme a "silent film" on the overwhelming majority of real machines. Csory's cards will be mute, too. Other cards, e.g. by Solder or Scala, will sound out of tune. Is that really a wise choice? 
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Posted By
Phoenix
on 2025-01-02
07:30:28
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
@Luca, indeed the music from Narciso is brand new and there are more in development for the game. And Phoenix design might icorporate others who may join me in the production
@Gerliczer, I know little about all the different SID card models, but I thought the majority is now defaulted to $fd40 as a quasi standard.. Out of tone is actually correct for some, but it's only disturbing in the first 5-10 secs imho. May not be the wisest choice - but it has been done -, and the scene is mostly using emulators these days where you can set the VIC-II clock with 2 clicks. Just my 2 pennies..
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2025-01-02
08:42:57
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
2025 is shaping up to be an awesome year for the Plus/4 scene!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2025-01-02
10:59:43
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
@Phoenix ok so we keep an eye on the eventual evolution of Phoenix Design as a new group, keep up the great work!
About the SIDcard centered discussion... Well, I think that most of the people knows my position about that:
1) I prefer TEDsound as main standard, I see the Scene mainly as an artistic production, more than a commercial or strictly functional one, though the latter covers an important side into the former and if it's the case, it shouldn't be annihilated by that main root; it's 2025, and UNESCO has already recognised the Demoscene as "an expression of Intangible Cultural Heritage". In the sub-field of Retroscene, the real push for it, is to maximize the artistic/ludic/(anything else) aspect of a release, optimising at best the tech side into an artistic environment (music, graphics etc...) with the very limited resources available on that certain hardware: the product's art is half the art, the optimisation on that machine is the other half of the art.
2) Once said this, I absolutely don't dislike the usage of SIDcard, which has become along the years a real standard into our little Scene, and the difference in the clock of the chip can be included in the very little flaws around it with no particular form of pain.
3) The usage of the Plus/4 releases has been certainly changed by the fantastic development of both faithful emulators and tools to achieve the best from these machines; still, referring again to the definition of how this form of art (hobby? job? whatever?) has been always defined, the core of the total "this" remains the original machine, date 1984, with all its flaws and advantages. Every prod MUST work on the original hardware to be included into this path, because this is not a PICO-8 or another fantasy machine. Clearly, you can experiment all the fancy hardware to enhance the standard machine, and we love to see them all (Evo Lution, BA - The Stream, MicroMorph0s1s...), but in the environment of a Scene, the main target should remain ooooook I've written too much you're right and you already understood sorry 
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Posted By
Phoenix
on 2025-01-02
19:13:42
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
To be honest guys I hoped you will like it, I put quite a lot of hours into this intro as well...
Regarding TED vs SID sound, I understand the principle which has been so thoroughly explained by @Luca (point 3 is a bit strong though imho) but let me reserve the right to disagree on how strict we should take this.
35-40 years ago when I was active on the scene, the sound experience on the +4 was most of the time horrendous. And this was only partly due to the (severe) HW limitations, but the fact most releases used C64 musics with different converters, which meant lot of compromises. Respect to the exceptions, but mostly only game studios created TED soundtrack for their titles, the rest well.. they tried to emulate the SID. (which let's be honest was probably the greatest publicly available synth chip of its age, and the best component of the "big brother") So for me the appearance of the SID extensions looked like a redeemer. The current scene is quite well equipped with SID either in form of physical cards or emulator support, so let me ask why would not we finally use it? Yes I saw that most of the recent titles use TED sound, and some of them are very good (I am still amazed by e.g. VolBass of @Csabo) but my game has been in development for like 2 years already (limited time - we all share similar problems - , and I just realized half way how big task is to build a game from zero) and I already created my SID effect engine from scratch as well. In the meantime Narciso joined me and offered help with music/soundtrack so I gladly accepted it and to me this collaboration looks fruitful.
So decision has been made, now I am trying to work on all the remaining items so it can be released one day. It's a bit demotivating, that it's not even released yet but mostly got only critics for my choices.  We share the same hobby (and a time consuming one), and I would just like to share the joy, hoping you will also like it and maybe appreciate the effort..
Continuing the thought spiral on what can be run on an original hardware, we could have a chat on e.g. Interlacing. With a bit of hack the +4 has an amazing capability of displaying real interlaced images and that double Y resolution is a true game changer. But we still don't use or see it anywhere, why, because most modern flat monitors / video signal converters and the emulators cannot properly display it. So our target sounds more like "most of the target audience will be able to enjoy it".
Regardless I would happily consider a TED version as well (just like for Lykia) should I get support from a +4/TED musician but now I would like to focus on the game and graphics part first - and that's where I need support from the scene. I am already in touch w @Unreal , but he has also been busy as hell recently.. so really any contribution is welcome..!
And finally if someone helps me with some info about how other (older) SID cards (using different base address) can be detected I am happy to add a code to make them work. "Apes together strong"
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2025-01-03
02:44:06
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
To be honest guys I hoped you will like it, I put quite a lot of hours into this intro as well...
It is interesting. Especially the fact that something is brewing and it could be cool.  But compared to the necessary hard and arduous work the result is somewhat lacking in excitement factor.
...+4 has an amazing capability of displaying real interlaced images... But we still don't use or see it anywhere, why, because most modern flat monitors / video signal converters and the emulators cannot properly display it.
AFAIK, it is unproven that true interlace can be made working reliably on CRT displays either. And it is quite bothersome to work with. And I feel there is a little difference between most and all. But, as I said right at the beginning of my post, you do you. If your course is already set and unchangeable, we will sail along that way.
And finally if someone helps me with some info about...
siziolibv3
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Posted By
Luca
on 2025-01-03
03:21:54
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
@gerliczer @Phoenix hey hey hey what's going on here? It's a fantastic preview, it's a great comeback from one of the big names of the golden era (also, if someone didn't remember, Charles has been the first who put online Plus/4 stuff, I was sooo excited when I'd found his Delta System page), he worked on a great project involving a greater saga. The excitement factor is on maximum levels for sure!
Also, it's possible a tad of misunderstanding about the FLI and monitors affair: what I understood from Károly's sentence, is that the dismiss of CRT monitors doesn't allow the interlaced FLI stuff to mix up in a soft result, where the modern sets tend to hyper define the resulting video rendering and can't play the right metamerism in order to "trick human's eyes enough" 
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2025-01-04
06:47:00
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
I think the "disappointment" is not that you went with SID sound (I wish more games did that!) but rather that you chose to use VIC-II frequency for the SID. This is definitely uncommon in the +4 scene AFAIK and basically restricts the audience of your intro/game to emulator users and people who have a CAE card, which is no longer produced.
So I would recommend to retarget your music to the ~886 kHz standard +4 SID clock, that will make almost all SIDcard users happy. Then, if you really want to put the icing on the cake, you should add a small routine that detects SIDcards using the "old Hungarian" address ($FE80) and support those as well. I don't think there's many of those still around but it shouldn't be too complicated to support them either.
I think this is what @gerliczer meant, and I agree with it.
Excellent job anyway, looks very good and promising!
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Posted By
Unreal
on 2025-01-03
05:31:32
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
Hello!
In january ill hope everything goes back to the right track with my jobs, so write you a letter, hope i can helps in level development and others.... because there is no TCFS release on the horizon, so I have time to make some 8-bit releases...:D
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Posted By
Murphy
on 2025-01-03
08:13:03
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
It looks like an exciting project, I hope we can try it soon!
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Posted By
Lavina
on 2025-01-03
11:48:53
 | Re: Dune Arcade Intro
Absolutely waiting for this one with excitement! And a warm welcome back to the scene!
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Posted By
Phoenix
on 2025-01-03
15:12:04
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
Hi Guys,
Thank you for the nice words and the encouragement. It's always difficult to find enough time for programming and motivation levels tend to drop sometimes, if one is not left alone with the efforts in the garden, the fruit is also much tastier. And I know we cannot satisfy everyone - regardless how hard we try -, what I've released now is really just the title screen of the game. Just a heads up that this is happening / work in progress.
@SukkoPera Got your point, I can have a look at it. I don't think C64 trackers have an easy way / embedded feature to transform all notes to a different "base freq" but maybe I could use a freq table or small algorithm to convert the frequencies on the fly.. How did others sort this out? I guess having the +4 freq for the SID chip by default is mostly heritage (and I know, to support full compatibility) in fact in 99% of use cases we do not read SID registers but only write so VIC-II clock is a better choice for music playback imho. I wish @Gaia would consider implementing CAE/NAE registers in YAPE sometime, so this could be SW configurable..
@Unreal Thank You friend, reaching out to you
@Gerliczer Re interlacing, now I remember that long discussion 2 years ago http://plus4world.powweb.com/forum/43980#44615 Please do not restart that discussion here in this thread (we can move it there if there are new aspects), but in fact interlacing does work - I tested 2 simple routines back in time (credits Bionic and IstvanV) - however you need to have either an old CRT set (I have one and interlacing works like charm), a lucky pick of flat screen from the 2000's with S-video input (like my Sharp flat TV) or an expensive S-video converter with proper deinterlacing capability (to preserve the double resolution). YAPE can also display them without the heavy flickering but unfortunately only with WinGDI output - @Gaia explained it back in time as far as I remember. And re the excitement factor I also wanted to add some more effects to this lil' intro - maybe one day I will - but we all need to manage our available resources (time - life balance - not just CPU cycles Peace friend
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2025-01-04
06:47:51
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
I think you have the two things reversed: on the +4, the ~886 kHz SID frequency is the standard, it is not legacy at all. It's VIC II frequency, which only CAE supports, that is "exotic" and, while I'm sure it makes it easier to port songs from the C64, there is virtually no software that uses it (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm relatively new to the scene).
Besides, as I said, CAE is no longer manufactured and if someone wants to get a SIDcard today, their only choice is ReSeed, which is a remake of Solder's SIDcard and as such it only supports the ~886 kHz frequency. Please don't underestimate the number of people who still like to play with the real hardware!
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2025-01-04
06:52:36
 | Re: Dune Arcade Intro
It would be extraordinary to see this on Plus4, keep it up. I really liked the presentation and the fact that the Delta System is coming back is just icing on the cake!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2025-01-04
12:31:41
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
@Phoenix wrote:"... I don't think C64 trackers have an easy way / embedded feature to transform all notes to a different "base freq"...".
Well, about this: the packer of the fantastic SIDwinder V01.23 by TLC actually allows to use both C64 or Plus/4 notes table (as well as SID address, used zp and memory location).
Anyway, once again: I personally consider the notes value shifting of the music a veeery tiny problem all in all, there's a big project ahead and we're literally moaning about angels' gender
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Posted By
Phoenix
on 2025-01-04
16:00:21
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
Indeed @Luca, but I think this is indeed an important aspect. I always admired SID's capabilities and so happy to see it as feasible option on our beloved platform as well but obviously would like to get the best experience for everyone. I assume Synergy cards / @Sukkopera 's card do not have additional clock generator (?) - hence this limitation - but then I will consider this freq change, we can correct the freq on the fly, I will do a few test later but this is fairly easy. With having different clocks only the tones' freq change nothing with ADSR timings etc right...?
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2025-01-05
04:48:17
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
A clock generator could be added easily, but then it would have to be "coordinated" with the variable +4 clock in order for read/writes to work. In practice, it would need A LOT of additional logic to buffer the writes from the +4 and apply them to the SID afterwards, regenerating all the required signals from scratch. It would also make live reads impossible and thus no analog controllers. That's (part of) why CAE has a whole CPLD instead of a few chips.
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Posted By
Phoenix
on 2025-01-05
13:41:09
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
@Sukkopera, got it, already created a test version with +4 clock. I am just wondering if anything else changes with clock beyond channel frequencies? Is the ADSR envelope curve impacted by chance..?
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2025-01-05
14:20:02
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
I think only the frequencies are affected, but you can quickly test in VICE, it supports both clocks.
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Posted By
BSZ
on 2025-01-05
14:24:45
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
Of course, the envelope generators also run from the SID-clock, This will also make them run slower. But it's only ~10% difference, which is where it rarely matters.
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Posted By
Phoenix
on 2025-01-05
17:22:54
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
Hi @BSZ
That was my educated guess, as tunes sound a bit differently, indeed a bit longer releases I can hear, sustain time is not affected though due to that's controlled by the gate bit. Thank you
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Posted By
MMS
on 2025-01-06
16:01:34
 | Re: Dune Arcade Intro
I really like the presentation, and frankly speaking, with SID (as we can hear) it is much easier to create an atmosphere, then with the TED sound.
Just my 2c:
Sound: the demo had a chilling and very good tune
Be realistic: the TED sound is NOT the strong part of the 264 series. You simply CANNOT reach the same atmosphere with TED. We know (and we all praise their talent), that some experts like Csabo, Luca, 5tarbuck can make wonders with TED, but the REST of us may simply need A music, some sound effect that may work without hassle, maybe just pick from the shelf (HVSC.c64.org).
Picture: yeah, some not proper dots were visible here and there, but OVERALL the demo has a great presentation, almost PC or Amiga like pictures. I really like it, also the slow, movie-like presentation.
We KNOW that interlace works on most CRTs. Our Toplist is full of slideshows with interlace pictures (I know because initially I helped Larry with some testing), and we saw Dreamtimes on AROK with a beamer. If some really old CRT TVs (not in great condition) may not tolerate it well due to loose coils or some bad ferrits, then the whole 264 scene should skip the idea of using interlace pictures? I think it is a kind of nonsense.
When I was a kid, I was really sad, how many good HWs were developed to C64, and the softwares using those HWs were extraordinary, like PageFox, Eddyfox, even GEOS with extra REU, HDD and Laser printer. It was like magic, beyond 8 bit boundaries. At the same time nothing came out to the younger C16, Plus/4.
Maybe my childhood fixation makes me so happy for every new HW release we have now.
SIDcard in NOT a new thing, maybe 30 years old now? And we had some batches from NST card, and even ReSeed is available from PCBWay, if anyone wants. NST card can be switched to C64 fRQ too. There is also SideKick, also emulates SID chip. A SID emulating chip is just <10€ (just bought one), I do not see a problem here.
If someone REALLY wants to have a SID card, can own one with some efforts (soldering skills) and overall it is not a big investment if order one from PCBWay. In the past NST card was also available, if someone decided to skip it, it is OK, but ANY of us can enjoy SID on a Plus/4.
If someone decides, that the SID is too luxurious for the Plus/4 (in my opinion: we DESERVED a good sound card from Commodore from the very beginning), then he can decide to play in silence. (like: everyone can decide that the Hungarian Bible is not a faithful translation, as did not exist 1000 years ago, so he can read the Bible in the true pure Latin form (or Ancient Greek, even better)
My example: For 5 years I had no sound card in my PC from 1992 onwards. It was my decision to prefer buying orange+vodka at the parties instead of investing a cheap sound card. I made my decision, but I was not angry to my roommate who had a Gravis sound card. It was my decision to play in silence, but drink vodka instead of cheap red wine+cola. Because for me a good drink was more important than a new PC HW. But I did not try to limit my friend 's wishlist because of that!
Thanks to some great scene members/developers, we have now a real MIDI out board, we have SID and AY sound, even my dream the Adlib 11 channel music is available at AFFORDABLE price (not like the C64 Sound Expander card). I think, that the Sound Expander should have been released for the Plus/4 and not for C64.
Just because we did not have these wonderful cards in the 80s means we should stuck to the TED sound forever?
Where would be the PC gaming with such a strange approach? Still beeper music should be the default because original IBM PC had no sound card? What?
Even the C64 scene welcomed the double SID music, that is ALSO not the part of the original C64 HW.
In the last 2 years MORE new hardwares released for the 264 series than in the previous 38 years. Sound Cards, huge Memory Expansions (512KB!), CPU cards, Wifi Modem, Mouse (my holy grail), external Plus/4 specific SD card based devices with really high speed.
I think it is not grateful towards the developers to simply IGNORE these fine new hardwares, just because we did not have them in the 80s. If YAPE supports the HW, anyone can enjoy the software IF HE WANTS. It is a decision.
Anyone could decide in the past, that he do not buy a VGA card, because CGA graphics is good enough him, and Adlib music is good enough. In few years he had nothing to play with, nothing to listen. I hope this reference is understandable.
You can check ZX Spectrum, Atari, or even BBC scenes, what is the direction. I am happy, that our possibilities increase day by day.
(For C64 scene, purism maybe possible, because it's hardware was so strong and still have some secrets. But it is just one from the several platforms)
Evolution is a must, it is a natural approach to become better, than what we were in the past.
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Posted By
George
on 2025-01-06
16:35:55
 | Re: Dune Arcade Intro
Great demo! Really atmospheric!
I think these projects are really important to establish the SID-Card even more as a standard.
What i am missing is an easy plug and play solution without soldering or searching components from different sources.
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Posted By
Phoenix
on 2025-01-06
19:28:35
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
Thank You Guys,
Indeed TED's sound was a bit of a disgrace but Commodore had their own reasons (cost) and targets with the C264 series.. But I cannot agree more, SID has so much more potential that we would be stupid not to use it considering it's wide availability Today.. @MMS, I would love to hear Stalker II on a PC beeper, laughed my ass off reading this For me interlacing on +4 is a missed opportunity as it makes such a huge difference in terms of FLI picture quality, and we could use it in many other ways as well. I was also in a dilemma for a second - if I should use it now - but I will not, as long as at least one of the emulators will display it properly without major flickering - as it shows on my TVs. Currently if you choose interlacing you narrow down your potential audience to a niche. :(
@George, check with BSZ he might still have a few cards available (?) Indeed soldering a PCB is not for all geeks.
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Posted By
Phoenix
on 2025-01-07
12:03:39
| Re: Dune Arcade Intro
WOW
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