| Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-03-19
05:16:47
|  Mouse Extension v1.0
| Title: | Mouse Extension v1.0 | | Category: | Utility | | Release Date: | 2024-03-18 | | Language: | English | | Size: | 64K | | Machine: | PAL & NTSC | | Code Type: | Machine code | | Distribution: | Freeware |
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-03-19
05:22:35
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Sziasztok!
Indítanék egy ötletelős topic-ot!
(HA most tévedtél ide, nyugodtan írj magyarul.. majd lefordítjuk angolra)
Az a kérdés, hogy bárki akarja-e használni..
ÉS ha igen, milyen formában.. így jó lesz, vagy úgy is csak a betöltős lenne használva, vagy csak a ROM változat?
Kellhet-e belőle catridge, vagy jó ez, amit a beépített program helyére csak be kell tenni?
Szóval a kérdés igazából az, hogy érdemes-e továbbmenni vele. Mert azért ebben elég sok lehetőség van.
Az én ötleteim (a ROM változathoz):
-lehetne automatikus BOOT-ot tenni bele..
ránéz hogy van-e "boot" nevű prg, és ha van betölti, és elindítja.. (abba meg bele lehet tenni, hogy két progit is töltsön be egymás után, ha valakinek több kéne.. vagy lemezenként más boot)
-Lehetne az OS kézreesőségével is továbbmenni.. kijelölés, másolás beillesztés, vágólap...
-lehetne bele mondjuk CD parancsot tenni. (bár azt jobb lenne a backup parancs helyére tenni)
-vagy egy komplett volkov commandert, bár az betölthető.. ott a cbm-command. De egy gyors listázó betöltő, mint pl. az fb16 az elférne..
-vagy ha commorore+click van egy karakteren, ami PRG szöveg egy betűje, és van előtte idézőjelben filenév, akkor töltse be..  Ha pedig inverz karakterre click-elünk, amiben inverz karakterek között idézőjelben van 16 karakter.. tehát egy lemez dir fejléc, akkor kiad egy directory UP-ot. ÉS akkor magával az OS-sel klikkeléssel lehetne könyvtárat váltani.
-Esetleg felülre menü.. de mit tennénk bele?
-vagy bele lehetne tenni hogy az eprom benéz maga mögé.. (jelenleg messze nem töltjük ki a LOW ROM-ot sem) .. és ha a kernal felett talál valamit, azt belapozza, és elindítja. így mindenki tudna maga a bővített OS-hez még saját progit betenni. Esetleg egy kis tool, amivel csak össze kell klikkelgetni az eprom tartalmat.
-billenytű kombóra átváltana a 3plus1 progi karakterkezelésére, és akkor menne azzal is. (itt a kurzor kezelés megfejtése a probléma)
-meg amelyik proginál megfejtődne, hol tárolja a koordinátákat, azokhoz lehetne saját, elé betöltős drivert csinálni.. vagy egybe tolni az egészet, és lenne mondjuk bottichelli mouse változat.(sajnos ehhez a kódfejtőshöz nem vagyok elég ász)
Néztem emulátorban, hogy tárolhatja a kordinátákat, de nem jötem rá.
-Néztem a geos c64 drivert is.. itt meg kéne infó c64-ről, meg geos-ról... milyen címek vannak... hát ha meg lehetne találni, és csak átírni a címet.. (de ez is megfejtős)
Nektek milyen ötleteitek vannak?
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Hello!
I would like to start a topic with ideas!
The question is whether anyone wants to use it..
AND if so, in what form.. will it be good, or would only the loaded version be used anyway, or only the ROM version?
Is it necessary to use a cartridge, or is this a good one that just needs to be inserted instead of the built-in program?
So the question is really whether it's worth going ahead with it. Because there are quite a lot of possibilities in this.
My ideas (for the ROM version):
- it would be possible to put automatic BOOT in it..
it looks to see if there is a prg called "boot", and if there is, it loads it and starts it.. (it can be set to load two programs in succession, if someone needs more.. or a different boot per disc)
-It would also be possible to continue with the OS's handiness.. selection, copy paste, clipboard...
- it would be possible to put a CD command in it, for example. (although it would be better to put it instead of the backup command)
-or a complete volkov commander, although it can be loaded.. there is the cbm-command. But a fast listing loader, such as fb16 would fit..
-or if there is commorore+click on a character that is a letter of PRG text and there is a file name in quotation marks in front of it, then load it.. And if we click on an inverse character, in which there are 16 characters in quotation marks between inverse characters... so a disk dir header, it will output a directory UP. AND then you could change the directory by clicking with the OS itself.
-Possibly a menu at the top.. but what would we put in it?
-or it could be added that the eprom looks behind itself.. (currently we are far from filling the LOW ROM either) .. and if it finds something above the kernel, it pages it and starts it. so everyone would be able to add their own program to the extended OS. Maybe a small tool that just needs to be clicked together with the eprom content.
-keyboard combo would switch to the character management of the 3plus1 prog, and then go with it. (here the problem is deciphering the cursor handling)
-and which program would decode where the coordinates are stored, you could make your own front-loading driver for them... or push it all into one, and there would be, say, a bottichelli mouse version.
I looked in the emulator to see if it could store the coordinates, but I couldn't figure it out.
- I also looked at the geos c64 driver.. here I need information about c64 and geos... what addresses are there... well, if you could find it and just rewrite the address... (but this is also difficult to decipher)
What ideas do you have?
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-03-19
05:52:55
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Pár gondolat válaszul.
Én szeretném használni. Épp a TRSE-vel ismerkedek, ott jó lenne. Pld demoeffektnek ahogy Amiga módon "lehúzod" a grafikus képernyőt.
A cartridge számomra nem opcionális. Mind a két gépemben foglalt az Espansion port.
A 3+1 kezelése nagyon jó ötlet.
GEOS: ezzel annyi a gondom, hogy nem tölti be sem a Pi1541-em, sem az Sd1541-em a GEOS-t. Ami szomorú dolog. Jól tudom, hogy kizárólag 1551-en fut?
Amit hozzátennék egyelőre a dologhoz az az egérmutató alakja. Lehetne esetleg nyíl, opcionálisan választva? Pld a ctrl+P (mint pointer) billentyű megnyomására változna.
És még egy. Jól emlékszem, hogy pár éve kijött a Ball OS Plusira? Sajnos hiányosak az emlékeim és nem is ástam bele akkoriban magam a dologba. Pár kép rémlik róla. Azzal a projekttel mi lett? És támogatta az egérkezelést?
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
A few thoughts in response.
I would like to use it. I am just getting to know TRSE, it would be good for that. E.g. for demo effect as you "pull down" the graphics screen in Amiga way.
The cartridge is not optional for me. Both my machines have the Expansion port used already.
Handling 3+1 is a very good idea.
GEOS: my problem with this is that neither my Pi1541 nor my Sd1541 will load GEOS. Which is a sad thing. Am I correct that it runs exclusively on 1551?
What I would like to add for now is the shape of the mouse pointer. Could it be an arrow, optionally selected? E.g. it would change by pressing CTRL+P (for pointer).
And one more thing, do I remember correctly that Ball OS for Plus came out a few years ago? Unfortunately my memories are fuzzy and I didn't delve into it at the time. I remember seeing pictures of it a few years ago. What happened to that project? And did it have mouse support?
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-03-19
06:17:11
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Nem tudom,... mi az a TRSE?
jelenleg ez a beépített program helyére megy, nem catridge helyre (készülhet olyan ami catridge helyre megy) meg akartam csinálni, csak elvéreztem rajta.. egyelőre.
Igen.. a plusira portolt geos csak 1551-el megy. (aki portolta annak 1551-ese volt, és kidobta a 41-es rutinokat)
Az egérmutató alakja sajnos fix.
- Kurzoros módban a háttérszínt cserélem és invezre állítom a karaktert a megjelentés idejére
Itt az a gond, hogy egy custom pointerhez saját dinamikusan generált karakterkészleztet kellene fenntartani a RAM-ban, irreálisan sok memóriaigény, és processzoridő lenne
- Grafikus módban meg azt a képpontot inverzálom, ahol a pointer van.
Itt meg nem fér bele a raszteridőbe, hogy elég gyorsan cseréljek akár 8 bájtot is a memóriában, ugyanis egy előre kiszámított értékre tellik a processzoridőből. Ha saját program lenne, akkor beleférne mindkét fajta kurzornál, de így, hogy hagyni kell futni mellette az OS-t, mindezt úgy, hogy lehetőleg ne piszkítsak magam alá, ennyi fért bele. (csak az RS-232-re fenntartott bájtokat használom, hogy a legjobb kompatoibilitást érjem el)
Rákerestem erre a Ball OS-re de nem találtam semmit róla, nem is hallottam még.
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I don't know... what is TRSE?
At the moment, this goes to the location of the built-in programs, not to the cartridge location (you can make one that goes to the cartridge location). I wanted to do it, but I couldn't... for now.
Yes.. the geos ported to the plus only works with 1551. (Whoever ported it had an 1551 and threw out the 1541 routines.)
Unfortunately, the shape of the mouse pointer is fixed.
- In cursor mode, I change the background color and set the character to inverse for the duration of the announcement
The problem here is that a custom pointer would have to maintain its own dynamically generated character set in RAM, which would require an unrealistic amount of memory and processor time
- In graphic mode, I invert the pixel where the pointer is.
Here, it does not fit into the raster time to change even 8 bytes in the memory quickly enough, because it takes a pre-calculated value from the processor time. If it were its own program, it would fit in both types of cursors, but in such a way as to let the OS run next to it, all in such a way as not to mess with myself, that's all it could fit. (I only use bytes reserved for RS-232 to achieve the best compatibility)
I searched for this Ball OS but I couldn't find anything about it, I haven't even heard of it.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2024-03-19
07:49:23
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
TRSE is a Pascal IDE (don't forget about the search function  )
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-03-19
08:29:40
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
A TRSE egy kb platformfüggetlen, Pascalra hajadzó maszek programnyelv PC-n.
Majd nézd meg, hányféle platformra lehet fejleszteni. Nekem most a TVC a szívem csücske ez ügyben. Ha ránézel a FB csoportjukra rájössz, miért
Ez a GEOS dolog ugyanannyira bosszantó, mint a Storm Across Europe bugossága. Sajnálom, hogy soha senki nem foglalkozott még az 1551 emulációjával eredeti vason.
A Ball OS nevére rosszul emlékeztem. Bal sys néven van fent a youtubeon. Talán anno lementettem. Ha érdekel a dolog, megpróbálom előásni a programot.
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
TRSE is basically a platform-independent, Pascal-oriented programming language on PC.
You should check out how many different platforms you can developed for with it. For me, TVC is my favourite for now. If you look at their FB group you will see why
This GEOS thing is as annoying as the Storm Across Europe bugginess. I'm sorry no one has ever bothered to emulate 1551 on original iron.
I misremembered the name of the Ball OS. It's up on youtube as Bal sys. I may have downloaded it back in the day. If you are interested, I will try to dig it up.
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Posted By
George
on 2024-03-19
08:47:57
 | Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
First of all: Great achievement! Really a great thing to be able to have a mouse on the plus/4.
I think the best usage would be a single cartridge with amiga adapter built in, so that you only plug a USB mouse in. I don't know if the Sid is necessary (probably).
My first integration would probablly be in me 3D Engine 2.0, a BASIC 3d renderer.
But so many cool possibilities now (if necessary hardware is affordable)
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2024-03-19
09:05:01
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@András, I was puzzled by Ball OS as well, never heard that name before. Bal-Sys on the other hand... No need to dig it up, we have it all right here on Plus/4 World.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2024-03-19
12:05:48
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
IMHO People confuse BAL-sys with SVS-Calc and the latter would be a good playfield for the mouse.
Can any emulator support this fantastic hardware and software?
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-03-19
13:08:20
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
A yape..-ben (a kernal low romban) ki lehet próbállni, mert a szoftver kezeli a billentyűzet egeret..
CTRL+KURZOR GOMBOK, CTRL+SZÓKÖZ (bal klikk), CTRL+RETURN (jobb klikk)
(Munus4 emulátorhoz ki kell tölteni a maradék biteket 4k-ra $FF-al, de nincs hozzá szoftverem)
Kipróbálom az SVS-Calc-ot, de sok BREAK..-et kapok :( Örülnék, ha kiderülne ez a helyzet, mert sok programban ugyanazt az eredményt kapom.
"3D Engine 2.0" Látom a 3D Engine 2.0-t, de bad subscript error -t kapok. Biztos vagyok benne, hogy valamit teljesen rosszul csinálok. De lehetséges.. lehet, hogy a betöltő okoz valamilyen problémát.
de a BASIC program ki tudja kapcsolni, és be is a tömörítés után. Talán ez egy jó megoldás lehet a "tömörítő alatt lefagy" probléma kezelésére
"A TRSE egy Pascal IDE" Ebben az esetben meg csak ki kell olvasni a biteket a leírásban szereplő memóriacímekből.
És...
!! ugyanez a helyzet minden assembly programmal is. (ha a program nem mókol a megszakítással)
Szóval assembly progit is könnyű írni hozzá..
Illetve lehet BASIC programot írni, amit austrospeed-del le lehet fordítani gépi kódra, hogy gyorsabb legyen. Sok a lehetőség ebben...
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
It is possible to try in yape.. (in the kernal low rom), because the sofware handles the keyboard mouse..
CTRL+CURSOR KEYS, CTRL+SPACE(left click), CTRL+RETURN (right click)
(for Munus4 emulator, needs to fill the remaining bites to 4k with $FF, but I don't have software for it)
I try the SVS-Calc, but I get a lot of BRAKE... :( I will be happi ti come up this situation, because in a lot of program, that I get same result.
"3D Engine 2.0" I see the 3D Engine 2.0 but I get an bad subscript error.. I'm sure I do something totally wrong.. But it is possible.. maybe the loader cause some problem.
but the BASIC program can switch out, and in with poke.. Maybe it is a good workaround for handle the problem
"TRSE is a Pascal IDE" In that case just needs to grab the bites from these memory addresses.
And ...
!! it is same situation with any assembly program. (if program not make any interrupt changes)
So it's easy to write an assembly program for it.
It is also possible to write a BASIC program, which can be translated into machine code with austrospeed to make it faster. There are many possibilities in this...
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2024-03-19
14:08:18
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I tried to run the first program (EXTEN 1.0p) in Yape. The cursor appears but Control-cursor keys do not work. Maybe it is because I use Yape under a virtual machine. I also failed to attach the cartridge file. Is it for C1, C2, or C3?
Yape seems to emulate the 6551, so there may be a way to attach a serial mouse to it.
Plus4emu works with the driver in keyboard mode but it can't emulate a mouse or the 6551.  And I also failed to attach the cartridge file.
Surprisingly my old emulator works in keyboard mode so all other emulators have to work too.
Has anyone reached the success using an emulated mouse under Yape or other emulators?
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-03-19
16:08:30
 | Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I have two contender (sorry I always forget how to make dual language posts):
1) For a long time I collected and created and converted pictures for the following game concept.
It definitely requires a mouse, multicolor mode.
I may create a very small demo with few locations, no muisc, and any other fancy stuff. I still need to work out the world and object management system.
2) Also would be a great idea to swap the 3+1 software to something small, quick and fancy.
After the recent findings how to utilitize the ROM together with full RAM, a program running from ROM could fully utilize the RAM.
I really liked Litwr's Text Editor made in BASIC, then compiled and it was fast enough and provided enough text to be edited in 80 column wide text.
Notepad+4
On the other hand I prefer buttons instead of memorized keycodes. Certainly next to the simple commands with buttons you can still have all the fancy features of NotePad+4, it would be just an extra layer on top of the editor. (with Plus/4 windowing commands you can limit the cursor to enter and overwrite the "button or "menu" area)
So I think together with a simple character based GUI and mouse support (even more: few more lines as extended screen just for the for the menu?) there could be a simple, but GeoWrite like experience.
It would base on character mode, not hires, so the previously mentioned 80 char mode it closed out.
In the ROM some more charsets could be stored and you could change between them. In the background there will be Litwr's text editor.
Then it would need no drive, and you could save to datasette and drive too (the first was not available on 3+1, one cause it failed initially, in UK and Hungary most ppl did not have floppy drive initially).
This is a PETSCII like mockup. Certainly it could be called as 1+1 only, 1 for the Text editor, 1 for the mouse support :-)
(BTW I just noticed I made a mistake with the 2...3...4 numbering on the top it should have been 1...2...3)
If the mouse cursor is just a full 8x8 character it is all right, please do not forget the original Lotus 1-2-3 or CP/M WordStar and WordPerfect had this kind of cursor.
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-03-22
21:10:01
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Litwr
Kipróbáltam a yape-ben és a plus4emu-ban, és billentyűzet módban működik
Próbálom a vice_GTK-ban, de csak a mutató mozgatása működik, a kattintások nem. (space és enter)
A yape csak a regisztereket emulálja. szóval elvileg nem megy vele a serial mode. (de legalább nem lebegnek a bitek)
A többi emu-ról nem tudok
A Vice_GTK írt néhány acia emu dolgot, és tartalmaz néhány inputot is hozzá,
PC-mre tettem és telepítettem egy soros portot, és bedugtam egy rs232-es egeret, .. működik a windows-al, Majd töröltem az egeret, hogy felszabadítsam a portot az emulációhoz.. de a Vice nem csatlakozott hozzá. sok lehetőséget kipróbáltam..
Talán jobb lehetőségek kipróbálni a sid card 1351 egér emulációt. A Vice-nek van egy "joystick port emuláció engedélyezése" a SID kártya szekciójában, de nem tudom, mit csinál.
Meg ki lehet választani amiga egeret is, és akkor meg JOY portra szemetel mindenféle bájtot..
------------------
@MMS
(Post-olás után utólag tudod szerkeszteni a sajátod (post feletti "EDIT" felirat), és ott tudsz betenni fordítást.. google translator, vagy ilyesmi)
"Jegyzettömb+4" Soha nem láttam, kicsit több mint jó. boldog Ez működhet egérrel.
Ez a játék jó ötlet.. sok munka van még.. és meg kell vizsgálni a legjobb tömbkezelést alapvetően.
Próbálkoztam valami megoldással, de nem találtam rá a tökéletes megoldást.
Lehet, hogy array.foreach() metódust kell írni az assembly-ben, és utána elég gyorsan lehet fejleszteni az alapban.
Kipróbáltam a cbm-3-5-basic-compiler-t, de lefagyott az alapkódomból. És Austro.. megoldás nem volt elég gyors a blokkok mozgatásához a char mód a képernyőn.
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Litwr
I try in yape and plus4emu ant it works with keyboard mode
I try in vice_GTK, but it works just the pointer move not the clicks with keyboard mode
The yape emulates just the registers. sor it won't work with it.
Another emus.. I don't know.
The vice_GTK wrote some acia emu, and contains some inputs too,
I put and install a serial port to my PC, and plug an rs232 mouse, works with the windows, after I delete the mouse to free the port to emulate.. but the vice doesn't grab. I tried a lot of options..
Maybe better options to try the sid card 1351 mouse emulate. Vice has an "Enable joystick port emulation" in tge SID card section, but I don't know, what does it.
-----------------
@MMS
"sorry I always forget how to make dual language posts" after you post, You can edit it.. There are..
"Notepad+4" I have never see it, bit it is more than good. And it can be work with mouse.
That game is good idea.. there are a lot of work.. and need to investigate the best array handling is basic.
I try some solution, but I don't found the perfect solution for it.
Maybe need to write array.foreach() method in assembly, and after it possible to develop fast enough in basic.
I tried cbm-3-5-basic-compiler but it freezed from my basic code.. And Austro.. solution wasn't enough fast to move blocks is char mode in the screen.
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Posted By
George
on 2024-03-20
05:56:07
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
bszgg Thank you for trying out with my 3d Engine2.0 (actually 2.5 is the last version). The program loads two seq files which has to be accessable by the drive you are using (in emulator in iecmode and the right path). The mouse is not supported so far, but i can imagenine a menu system like in Dos+mouse.
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Posted By
George
on 2024-03-20
05:56:08
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
bszgg Thank you for trying out with my 3d Engine2.0 (actually 2.5 is the last version). The program loads two seq files which has to be accessable by the drive you are using (in emulator in iecmode and the right path). The mouse is not supported so far, but i can imagenine a menu system like in Dos+mouse.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2024-03-20
12:50:53
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
It is difficult to use Yape under Virtualbox because Virtualbox has a mapping for the right Ctrl key and Yape uses the left Ctrl key as a Commodore key. This prevented me from getting positive results yesterday. Today I used Yape under native Windows and this emulator works perfectly with the mouse in keyboard mode. It also emulates the C1531 mouse very well. But I have to report one problem. Yape or the driver does not work correctly for vertical movements, it inverts them. So if I move the mouse up, the cursor moves down.
Notepad+4 can be compiled with either Austospeed or BCCWIF. I'm willing to help with the latter, it must work if your code does not contain floating point or graphical commands.
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-03-23
08:30:22
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Sziasztok!
Van igény az eredeti kurzort megtartó szövegszerkesztőre? Az egér, mint vágólap funkciót előhozó eszköz-re gondolok.
Megépítettem az adaptert. Várom a golyós egeret. Kíváncsi leszek, mit produkál eredeti vason.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-03-23
09:29:59
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I'm trying to test this on a real machine but I can't understand how it works. If I load the PRG the BASIC prompt comes back but there is no mouse cursor and even the keyboard does not respond anymore.
Same for the first program in the D64. The other ones don't load at all.
How am I supposed to use a CRT if I already have a SIDcard in my Expansion slot?
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-03-23
17:51:59
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@George : Thx! If I will have time, i'll look
@Litwr : We chat with @bsz, and:
Yape does not work correctly. The 1351 mouse Y is reverse than other types of mouse.
I write a little basic program, I can compile with Austospeed but it doesn't work in BCCWIF.
PRG: https://bencsikszilveszter.hu/plus4/plus4/eger/mou_tiles_exam_beta.prg
SRC: https://bencsikszilveszter.hu/plus4/plus4/eger/tiles_exam.beta.bas
more precisely, it compiled, but the result was wrong.
I think the floating point is the problem, but if I add % to a variable in for it got basic error at run.
@SukkoPera
"but there is no mouse cursor and even the keyboard does not respond anymore"
I got this situation, when I run secondly. (If it runs from ROM, that means you don't start the PRG) We should start thinking how can I get that type of SID card. (I can get out the SID chip from my c64)
"The other ones don't load at all." these others are just basic examples.. So maybe there are some other problems too.
That crt is a ROM file, not a CRT, that means it has to be put in the socket of 3plus1-low.
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@George : Köszi! Ha lesz időm megnézem
@Litwr : Beszéltünk @bsz-szel, és:
A Yape nem működik megfelelően. Az 1351 egér Y-ja fordított, mint a többi egértípus.
Írtam egy kis alap programot, Austospeeddel tudok fordítani, de BCCWIF-ben nem megy.
PRG: https://bencsikszilveszter.hu/plus4/plus4/eger/mou_tiles_exam_beta.prg
SRC: https://bencsikszilveszter.hu/plus4/plus4/eger/tiles_exam.beta.bas
pontosabban lefordította, de rossz lett az eredmény.
Szerintem lebegőpontos a probléma, de ha egy változóhoz egy FOR -ban hozzáadom a %-ot, akkor futáskor a BASIC hibát kapok.
@SukkoPera
"de nincs egérkurzor és még a billentyűzet sem reagál többé"
Ezt a helyzetet kaptam, amikor másodszor indítom. (Ha ROM-ról fut, az azt jelenti, hogy nem szabad indítani a PRG-t) El kellene kezdenünk gondolkodni, hogyan szerezhetek ilyen típusú SID kártyát. (Ki tudom venni a SID chipet a c64-emből)
"– A többi egyáltalán nem tölt be." ezek a többi csak BASIC példák.. Szóval lehet, hogy más problémák is vannak.
Ez a crt egy ROM fájl, nem CRT, ami azt jelenti, hogy a 3plus1-low aljzatába kell helyezni.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2024-03-24
02:50:34
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I have got several results:
1) the main driver "mou exten 1.0p" sometimes hangs after RUN. It happens rarely but happens. It seems something is wrong with the interrupt handling code;
2) I could manage the ROM/CRT-code to work. Please make the file size 16 KB, it helps some emulators;
3) your code is successfully compiled by BCCWIF, I just used PETCAT and then compiled. However the problem is detected, the compiler incorrectly handles CBM control sequences. I want to fix this but it can take a while. You can replace the sequences with the proper ASCII code numbers if you want to get the proper compiled code. However I don't understand why do you want to compile your examples? They work perfectly under ROM-Basic. And you don't need to use integer variables (%) only, you just need to avoid any numbers that have the fractional part.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-03-24
05:11:35
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I am using a 64k-expanded C16, so no Function ROM (easily) possible. Is that mandatory or alternative to the PRG? This is not clear!
I have tried with a serial mouse through a combination of 16UP V3 + Plus4Serial, same behaviour, i.e.: program hangs right after load. I thought it could be due to JiffyDOS so I tried disabling it but it didn't help.
I can send you a ReSeed card (and 16UP, Plus4Serial, anything you want ) but in line of principle you just read/write the SID register set at $FD40 (or $FE80) and read the joystick data (for mouse buttons) from $FD80, it's as simple as that.
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-03-24
06:30:49
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@litwr
1) I'll try check, what is the problem. (I have to clean the source and push to the git repo too)
(Update: I think I found this when I made the ROM version. I forget to fix in the PRG.
How Can I handle it? Just upload again to same place? It is ok?)
2) ahh, that's fine.. :/ I will find a software for it. (the CBM PRG Studio can not do it)
3)I just try to test the speed, because basic it not too fast for good user experience for it
@Sukkopera
Oh... (Originally the c16 is not supported..) That was my decision, because nobody wants to test it on. I don't know what is the problem on your side.
have you used these hardware before?
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-03-24
06:13:53
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Well, with a 16UP card plugged in, it has an ACIA and it is virtually the same as a +4. But if you want to try, why not?
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-03-24
06:35:23
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Sukkopera
I realize.. that  so I modified my answer.. but You answer earlier..
So I don't know, how I can help in this situation.
Can You try on plus4 somehow?
"Is that mandatory or alternative to the PRG?"
You can use the PRG version OR the ROM version.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-03-24
06:47:37
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I cannot test on a +4 right now, maybe in the Easter holidays but it will be difficult .
Yes, the hardware works, I tested it with Term-80, managing to communicate successfully with a PC.
Actually it even works with the previous version of your driver. Mouse motion is a bit jerky, but it works.
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-03-24
08:48:45
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Maybe, it will needs to make separate versions to ACIA and SID.
avoid random bytes read because of missed acia And same reason for SID (I can't have enough bytes in RS232 reserved memory of computer to save what is available in the machine after detect) I'm thinking on it..
Or use more memory address.. it means less compaibility
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-03-25
04:13:52
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I think it's fine to have different versions. That's the whole point of a driver after all, to have a universal interface on one side and a specific one on the other, isn't it?
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-03-25
18:54:58
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Well, it was a great idea to support all in one, but there are so many things to check at the same time.
If you remember the good old time, you has to choose in DOS what kind of sound hard you have, and at with port and IRQ#.
Maybe I should not say "good old times" (as autdetect, PnP is much better), but this is how it happened
So this machine could have the same approach, at the beginning the program may ask what kind of mouse you own, and load only the specific driver to the memory. It will reduce the workload per IRQ too for the program, and certainly the size too. (the different mouses need different calculation).
(I self advert our common BASIC routine we created to able to load a gfx to the common place... It can be used lto load a gfx, but also a mouse driver too, if you remove the fixed loading address from the routine and the load address becomes the part of the call parameters)
https://plus4world.powweb.com/plus4encyclopedia/500251
On the universal surface side these drivers will be fully compatible with each other (as Sukkopera said), put the same locations and status to the same address in the same format. Great!
@bszggg
-Plus4comp compiler: I could not make it running too.Strnage, because AFAIK it was an official release. Maybe it also required a donge, otherwise it generate false code?
-Austrospeed may generate a 3-5x faster code, but it works mainly on C64 BASIC tokens. The V3.5 commands is just passes, and only the routines become faster using them. I mean CHAR, BOX, CIRCLE, REPEAT UNTIL, anything V3.5 will remain slow (but still work)
-Litwr's compilet is the fastest one. I made some trial with that and I think the speed increase is between 6-10x. Supports a lot of V3.5 commands, and even the Arrays. It does not support GFX commands, but it supports CHAR in character mode.
I suppose his compiler is the best one for this task, though you need to go to Windows PowerShell (or Linus command prompt) to work with that. The PETCAT in VICE does the job. Though one thing I did not understood in Litwr's previous remark about the float numbers (in Commodore 8bits finlly everything is float :-) ) as his compiler supports the 3 byte long pesudo-reals with reduced accuracy. (anyhow, hardly anyone uses that precision any more. or maybe ever)
-If you are looking for extreme fast PRINT command, maybe you can try https://plus4world.powweb.com/software/C16C116Plus4_Micro-BASIC-Compiler
BTW do you like any of the single character Mouse Cursor I just created?
I like this one the most
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2024-03-26
16:04:39
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@bszggg Thanks to your program I found a bug in CBCCWIF, it just can't handle strings in DATA-lines. Version 0.02 didn't have this bug... Now I am working on version 0.04 but it can take some time until it will be ready to release. I could successfully compile your code, so MOU_TILES_EXAM_BETA-C.PRG is attached.
http://litwr2.atspace.eu/zone/mou_tiles_exam_beta-c.prg
Where can I take the updated driver? It is still v1.0 on our site.
I found out that Yape works unstable with the v1.0 driver. It seems the driver under Yape often detect the mouse type incorrectly.
@MMS What is PLUS4COMP? I have never encountered such a title.
CBCCWIF generates the fastest code but the size of the code is largest too.
@Csabo When do you allow people to upload prg-files on our site? These files are much smaller than images...
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-03-26
16:15:22
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Litwr This is an official release and says it can compile a code with gfx commands.
Sorry, I added a 4 to the name, routine
Mini Plus-COMP
https://plus4world.powweb.com/software/Mini_Plus-Comp
It is a strange program, as it can load the program only from TAP. It simply does not work for me.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2024-03-26
16:27:23
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Litwr: you can upload PRG files 3 ways currently, each one has a different purpose.
1) If you released a new program, you can first add it to the database (Admin | Programs | New | Save). Once that's done, you can upload the PRG file to Plus/4 World (via the [ Upload PRG file or screenshot ] link). This will be public.
2) You can upload program files (or anything else really), via the Site Uploader feature. This is if you want us to do something with that file, it won't be visible until manual action is taken.
3) You can upload files via PMs to any member (including me ). Those files will be private, only visible to you and the intended recipient (unless you decide to share the link).
Hope this helps!
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2024-03-26
16:40:50
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@MMS Thanks. But I can't even load this compiler, it seems the TAP-file is broken. Maybe it was a fake release.
@Csabo Thank you very much. I was reluctant to test this, a shame for me.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-03-27
14:44:41
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Litwr Nope, it works. Funnily if you do not stop at once the tape, it finds itself,
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-04-01
09:11:57
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Hi!
That will the new PRG version with less bug (beta).
https://bencsikszilveszter.hu/plus4/plus4/eger/mou_exten_v1.xx_beta.prg
I hope I fix the
-wrong detection at none existed sid card (sometime false pointer movement)
-not handled ACIA overflow error fixed
-serial stop the button down when I stop movement
-fix the sometimes freeze at run
Now the serial mouse is take a kind of same good user experience as the amiga mouse. without any clicking and movement gap.
@Sukkopera
I haven't tested on c16.
So in theory: all interrupt has own maker, every interrupt that is triggered will have an owner.. that means it is no chance to read the ACIA without real chip.
But if it happens, that means have to read good fake statusbyte, and good and relevant databytes minimum 3 times.. that means to get 3 fake interrupt without raster owner
So the wrong working is is wery low.
I don't any idea what is the freez problem at rus, every time..
I fixed a freez error at run (prg version), but it happens very rarely.
If you have to do it on emulator somehow, I can check it.
I wouldn't like to make a c16 version, because originally idea is a booting machines with mouse. Mouse side is kind of fine. I'm working on the BOOT side.. and I don't have to maintaining lot of code versions.. But I can do it if it can't be avoided
@MMS
In the final version everything in ONE EPROM. that contains all driver and detect the mouse type, and manage and do the BOOT.
in fact.. this is already ready.
I bought 50 EPROM to can send to the community, if somebody will want to.
But it needs to test it. I Wouldn't want to release not good working software.
And there are some things that missed..
-a BASIC or assembéy launcher that handles mouse and somehow configurable (kind of GUI)
(I don't have enough programming capacity)
-make the ROM code to run in catridge too. becouse the c16 owners like Sukkopera
(I an release without it)
Not mandatory things
-make catridge panel and ACIA for user port
-make user port hardware, that contains a switcher too
COMPILERS:
I try the austrospeed, it works well.
I try the CBCCWIF that will be a wery good possibilities, but we have to load a fast loader for it, because from 8 block will be the 32block. AND have to minimize the BASIC code length.. with cycles and not new rows.
Thanks these compiler possibilities informations.
"BTW do you like any of the single character Mouse Cursor I just created?"
I like it..
It have to test in TFT monitor too (with Real machine compozit). My TFT is a display a little bit wideer point that the height. so when I try to make it in bottichelli the result was not enough good.
@Litwr
It is facinating speed! It opens new possibilities!
Thank You I will working with it in the futute!
"Where can I take the updated driver?"
In this post.. Sorry, I have to fix all bug things, that I know.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-04-04
17:32:01
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Tested on the C16, same behaviour as before, i.e.: program hangs right after load, whether a SIDcard, 16UP or no card at all is plugged in.
Unless... do I have to load it in some special way?
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-04-05
15:50:42
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Sukkopera It has been tested on Real C16(64k) and it works.
Last bug that I knew, (It freezes at the second run) I fixed.
In this : aa.prg
Please try it.
If it works, We know you ran twice the program somehow. If not, We know you have some other custom error.
Thank you for your support
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-04-06
04:31:30
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Sziasztok!
Még mindig ugyanaz a problémám, mivel nem sok közöm van az elektronikához, egy részletes kapcsolási rajz.
Valaki fel tudná ide rakni a full verziót? A MAX IC hanyas lábára mi van kötve és az hova megy tovább... Elkók polaritása.. Ilyesmikre gondolok.
Illetve a másik: mivel két RS232 portot kezel a MAX, az jó megoldás, ha az RS232 ki és bemenet a kettes portért felelős lábakra van bekötve?
Köszi előre is
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-04-06
04:36:09
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Kis kiegészítés... Ha létezik egy ilyen kapcsolási rajz, jó lenne tudnom, hogy az RS232 apa forrasztási, vagy pin oldala van ábrázolva rajta(tudom, létezik a szabványhoz az interneten leírás, de nem tudom, hogy ez érvényes-e a Plus/4 esetében)
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Posted By
Luca
on 2024-04-06
05:48:50
 | Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
An informative intermezzo in the middle of this discussion regarding the mouse implementation on a Plus/4: someone – don't remember who, beg your pardon please! – has pointed out that a real Commodore mouse adapter had seen the light at page 9 of Compute Mit SA 3/88.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-04-06
11:18:52
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@András: If you are looking for schematics of a serial adapter for the userport, have a look at this. Note you can get the PCBs for a few bucks...
@bszggg: It still hangs after load. How am I supposed to load it? Just LOAD "*",8,1?
UPDATE:
I have found out that JiffyDOS is to blame for the hanging. If I disable it, the machine is still responsive after I load the driver. At least now we know this thing is incompatible with JiffyDOS.
Then, even with JiffyDOS disabled:
- I tried 2 serial mice with a 16UP card and none is detected. If I load Term-80 and I move the mouse, characters appear on screen, so the serial port appears to be working correctly.
- With the 1351 and a ReSeed card, the cursor only moves if I hold the left mouse button. The right mouse button does nothing. Both buttons are detected correctly by Solder's Joystick-Testprogramm (left button is fire, right button is UP).
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-04-06
12:02:53
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Thanks for the drawing Sukkopera. That's not what I'm looking for. The original sketch is not clear to me (I am not an expert).
I have a Max232 IC. I have a 9pin Dsub male connector. I have 5 bipolar electrolytic capacitors. I have a unipolar film capacitor. Which pins of the Max232 should I connect these components to and which pins of the User port? The sketch contains semi-information for me
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2024-04-06
12:30:29
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Luca Thanks for this interesting information. It is sad that this mouse adapter didn't become known. It is very interesting that this adapter uses the standard joystick port! IMHO there were a lot of interesting things made for the C16/+4 in Germany that are still unknown.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-04-06
13:16:22
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Andras I made in the documentation a kind of real life photo to help. I wanted to make this easy fror beginners too
It is easy and cheap to get this Max232 circuit, and very easy to connect just 4 wires (according to the above picture). If you use a breadboard, even easier.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/314780734838
You can easily get an external USB powered 5V source too, if you do not want to load the User Port
https://www.ebay.com/itm/112646711039
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-04-07
15:41:04
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Sukkopera
Maybe the JiffyDos interrupthandling not perfect.. at the ROM switching .. Who knows.. ..
I have no JiffyDos.. so.. I can let it go at the moment
16UP:
Maybe the 16UP card acia detection is other than the acia in the plus4.
hmmm.. maybe it needs to check the shematic.. There will be some difference..
I don't have any idea..
I can pick just the detection part.. in a prg, and send to you to check it, it you think.
(it helps as the detection side contains the difference or the initialization .. set bit rate and others)
Reseed
I have checked the joy on @NST audio extension with Joystick-Testprogramm and as I see, it works well.
I don't have Reseed card. (at the moment I can't pay it) That is the reason why I have time to do this..
So If You have one (temporay), I'll check it on. (I can pick up SID chip from c64 for it)
But maybe better, If you have some documentation, what addresses need for mouse working, and how.. maybe I will try it on Yape, and send to you to check it. Need documentation in first case..
Would you like to help me somehow, or we let it go?
(in second case I will corrected the supported hardwer in description)
UPDATED:
I found this:
Solders_SID_Card PAGE
and a doc
sidcard_manual.pdf
It is the relevant?
(I got an offer, I can get a c16(64k) for a little time, if you can send me these custom hardwares.) to test it..
UPDATED2:
I have some new ideas (with sid card).. I'm working..
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-04-08
03:58:03
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@bszggg:
I think we can ignore JiffyDOS for the moment. Knowing that the driver is not compatible with it is probably enough for now.
Yes, those schematics are for the original SIDcard by Solder, which is what ReSeed is based upon, but you can also take a direct look at the ReSeed project design files since it's a totally open project.
Anyway it works the same as Solder's SIDcard, which in turn should be the same as CAE/NAE in "basic" mode, i.e.: SID registers are mapped to $FD40-$FD5F (and additionally to $FE80-$FE9F) but you are already reading these correctly since the mouse moves well when I hold the left mouse button. The joystick interface, which you need to read for the buttons, is mapped at $FD8x, you just read that and the lowest 5 bits will report the status of UP (bit 0)/DOWN (bit 1)/LEFT (2)/RIGHT (3)/FIRE (4), with 0 meaning pressed and 1 meaning released.
The 16UP card was designed to be fully compatible with the +4 userport, meaning that when it is plugged in a C16 it will be able to run all the +4 software using it (except for this issue, which has larger implications anyway, as you will notice). The ACIA is available at $FD00-$FD03 and the parallel port is at $FD10, just like a standard Plus/4. There might be issues if you use other addresses from the $FD1x range but that is because my machine also has a 256k Hannes-style RAM expansion, so please stick to $FD10 only. If you want to send me a program that just does the ACIA detection, I will test it.
16UP is also an open project BTW, all design files are available here.
I think I have been trying to collaborate enough, as I'd really like to get this working on the C16. I can also arrange to send you some cards but that will take some time.
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-04-09
09:09:52
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Sukkopera
#Sid card side:
Can You test it on Your ReSeed?
this : reseedtestmou.prg
I correct a lot of little things. restructured part of code..
I tested with CAE in solder emulation mode.
(It works in yape too, but the Y coordinate is changed in yape)
#ACIA side:
I don't have any idea what is the problem. in the acia expansion on c16
I tested it more than 1 plus4.
I can't use any ACIA detection just the initialisation..
aciaInit LDA #$00 ; Init the acia chip for serial mosuse 7bit + 1stopbit, incoming
STA .aciastatus
LDA #$01 ; 05 volt régen, de az akkor kell, ha küldünk is
STA .aciacommand
LDA #$38
STA .aciacontrol
RTS
And after just waiting the incoming bytes.. in the interrupt
LDA #$80
BIT .aciastatus ; check acia interrupt (bejövő RS232 egér adat)
BPL contx
; egér bájtot berakni a saját pufferünkbe
addPuffer LDA .aciadata ; ACIA INCOMING BYTE
LDY .pufferstart
INY
CPY #$09 ; pufferlength
BPL contx ; ha a pufferstart kisebb vagy egyenlő pufferlength-nél, akkor nem tesszük le
STY .pufferstart
STA .pufferstart,y ; save to puffer
Nothing else..
So I don't have any idea, what is the problem in my code.. Why is not working with the 16up. If you have Tell me..
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-04-09
13:16:24
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Well, just my 2c, although I am really not a HW guy: as far as I know, that the MOS6551 ACIA has a hardware bug, and does not work according to the specification sheet in all cases.
I am not a big expert of the matter, but I member may Roberto mentioned, that the old Commodore 2400 baud modems also worked with the Plus/4, but only if they insulated a certain pin on the user port. I mean a bit in the handshake did not work as expected and blocked the communiation, it should be kept always 0.
I found a video, stating it is only the WDC6551, but AFAIK the MOS6551 had the same bug. The explanation starts somewhere at 15:00, and how to circumwent this from SW.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnA8nG3zYHw
But my original RS232 mouse +MAX232 worked with bszggg's ancient code, and his code also worked for him too. so maybe the code became more sophisticated on the RS232 and may cause that specific bug, really linked to byte transmit protocol.
I am not sure if it is reallylinked, but I hope you can use this info (if was not known yet)
| (no topic)
Habár nem vagyok járatos a HW cuccokban, úgy rémlik, hogy a 6551-nek van egy hardver hibája, ami állítólag jól ismert és jól dokumentált. A soros kommunikációval kapcsolatos.
A csatolt videóban a 15.perc környékétől magyarázzák el az adott regiszter működése miképp blokkolja az adatátvitelt és miképp kell megkerülni.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnA8nG3zYHw
Természetesen nem tudom, hogy tényleg köze van-e ennek az RS232 problémához, remélem valami használható hozzászólást küldtem, nem valami teljesen evidens dolgot.
A régi (ősi) kóddal $4000-en egyébként jól működött az RS232 egér + Max232 kombó.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-04-09
13:28:19
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I think you're talking about the /CTS bug mentioned by @TLC here: https://plus4world.powweb.com/forum/45374
That was already worked around by Commodore by permanently connecting the ACIA /CTS pin to ground and handling the userport signal in software. 16UP does exactly the same, but anyway I don't think mice use flow control signals, I will check ASAP (I'm currently trying to fix an A4000 with the oddest video issue ever: red and green swapped...).
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Posted By
bszggg
on 2024-04-09
16:59:04
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I'll be happy if @Sukkopera, or somebody else test it in reseed, and works well.
I can let it go the c16up.
I'll be happy to know there is one type mouse that can be use on c16(64k)
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Posted By
TLC
on 2024-04-11
08:08:42
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Sukkopera wrote:
I think you're talking about the /CTS bug mentioned by @TLC here: https://plus4world.powweb.com/forum/45374
Yep, looks like that indeed.
The 6551 and it's descendants used to have a couple of nasty bugs, but the ugliest one is clearly this "transmitter is immediately shut down upon CTS going inactive" thing. The guys have worked it around in the Plus/4 design for a reason.
but anyway I don't think mice use flow control signals
They don't, I mean other than drawing supply current from the port. I used to be playing with this as well (had a somewhat working HID library maybe two years ago), I have tested both Microsoft and Mouse Systems derivatives during the work, and they all worked off from a stock VIC-1011A interface cartridge + a gender changer, and also a late VIC-1011A compatible regular User Port RS-232 interface, just by setting up the port the right way. Maybe one specialty, AFAIR one of the supply voltages is supplied by DTR (can't really recall), and this appears to also have a special function on Microsoft Mouse derivatives: upon toggling it on first, the mouse spits out a PnP identification string, before it'd enter "regular" mode. (The identification mode can be repeatedly activated by toggling the control line off, and on after some time.)
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-12-13
07:30:20
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Hello!
I want to build the adapter during the winter shutdown.
I looked at the circuit diagram in the 20161227_Plus4_RS232mouse_documentationV2.pdf description.
My questions:
Which pins of the MAX232 IC should capacitors c1-c5 be connected to?
Is the part of the capacitors marked in black the positive leg?
Should the positive leg of the capacitor c3 be connected to +5V?
Can the ground of the capacitors c5 and c6 and the leg 5 of the dsub be connected to the N leg of the RS232?
Should the leg 12 of the MAX232 IC be connected to the C leg of the RS232 port?
Should +5V be connected to pin 2 of the MAX232 IC?
Sorry if I ask a lot of questions. I have little knowledge about reading wiring diagrams.
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Posted By
BSZ
on 2024-12-13
17:39:29
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
You can find answers to these questions in the MAX232 datasheet, but I have copied a part of it:
Which pins of the MAX232 IC should capacitors c1-c5 be connected to?
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 16, see above.
Is the part of the capacitors marked in black the positive leg?
Maybe, but not for sure. The sure thing is the datasheet.
Should the positive leg of the capacitor c3 be connected to +5V?
The mouse interface hardware description says: yes.
Can the ground of the capacitors c5 and c6 and the leg 5 of the dsub be connected to the N leg of the RS232?
This question is not fully understood, but yes, the listed pins are all GND.
Should the leg 12 of the MAX232 IC be connected to the C leg of the RS232 port?
The above drawing (mouse interface hardware description) seems to be wrong: the MAX232 pin 12 is TTL output, this should be connected to the RxD input of the USER port, I think.
Should +5V be connected to pin 2 of the MAX232 IC?
No! Pin 16 is +5V, see the drawing above.
Edit: I have never used the above mouse interface electronics, however, I have used the MAX232 a lot. To me, the schematic in the linked documentation seems too simple. One problem with serial mice is the power supply, there were several ways of doing this in the past. For this reason, it is possible that an "any" mouse will not work even if the interface is otherwise good.
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-12-14
07:39:37
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@BSZ Köszönöm a választ. Kezd fény gyúlni az agyamban. Továbbra sem tudom viszont, hogy a Plus4 S232 portjának melyik labára kell kötni a Max232 IC 12.lábát... Ha a Tx az RxD-re megy, akkor az Rx az M (TxD)-re kell legyen kötve?
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@BSZ Thanks for the answers. It's starting to make sense to me. But I still don't know which pin of the Plus4 S232 port the Max232 IC pin 12 should be connected to... If Tx goes to RxD, then Rx should be connected to M (TxD)?
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-12-14
08:35:20
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Hi,
Please let me know if you find any bug in the documentation linked. I am not a HW guru, and admit I culd make mistakes.
There were some disputes on the Tx and Rx usage at different places. There are some C64 circuits, using these ports differently.
According to my memory (several years ago when I built the interface) and BSZGG's nonexisting documentation (before this this was created) logically the "sending data" (Tx) need to be connected to the Plus/4 "receiving data" (Rx) input, like in case of null-modems.
I bought complete Max232 circuit from Aliexpress (very cheap), so you have all the RS232 connector and the input and output lines (Tx,Rx) next to the ground and +5V connection you can use with DuPont cables.
So in the documentation the Max232 circuit's Tx (Transmit) signal connected to the User Port's Rx (C Pin).
It is quite logical, but please tell me if I was wrong, and it works inm the opposite way.
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Posted By
BSZ
on 2024-12-14
11:39:14
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
There is a lot of nonsense on the internet about serial port RxD/TxD. I'm not even going to get into this topic, I'll stick to the serial mouse.
The serial mouse is a stupid animal, you can't talk to it. When something changes (moves, button changes), it sends the new state to the computer via the TxD line. This TxD line is output on mice, and is of course connected to the RxD line of the computer, which is the input. (In the case of plus/4, you need an interface circuit between the two devices, this is done by MAX232. And here I would also ask everyone: nobody should call the signals on the plus/4 USER port RS232. If it were RS232, there would be no need for the level-converter.)
However, the mouse never receives any data from the computer! The computer's TxD line therefore does not need to be connected. But... The mouse's RxD line (which could be controlled by the computer's TxD line) is used occasionally, and some serial mice get their power from this line. (Other serial mice are not.) In the linked documentation, you can see that the mouse connector has the RxD + TxD line connected to the MAX232, but only the mice's TxD line connected to the computer's RxD line.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-12-14
12:25:44
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@BSZ: I fully agree, Plus/4 has TTL level signals, that's why the Max232 IC needed
Others:
I suppose we should not mix here the REAL RS232 mouses and the PS/2 serial mouses. despite the PS/2 mouse cam emulate the RS232 mouse protocol (that's why a lot has such an interface and it works) , the PS/2 mouse could have three different protocols, and communicate much more and much different than an RS232 mouse.
Using a PS/2 mouse witha converter may lead to communication issues and frustration.
so we need pure RS232 mouse here with DB9 connector, as seen on the picture.
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-12-15
03:47:06
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@BSZ
Thanks for the information.
You are right, the User port is not RS232C. It looks like it, but it's not, sorry for the mistake.
Last question.
Does the capacitor C3 in the PDF have to be connected to +5V? The picture you shared in the forum shows otherwise. Should I build it according to the picture (positive pin to pin 2 of MAX232, negative pin to pin N of the User port) or according to the pdf (negative pin to +5V, positive pin to pin 2 of MAX)?
I have a User port test panel, I want to build it on it. If it works, I'll share the wiring diagram with you.
Thanks for all the help
Ps...
https://www.theengineeringprojects.com/2017/07/introduction-to-max232.html
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-12-15
15:20:39
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Andras
@George
Well I prefer ready (or almost ready solutions).
There is the final solution from SukkoPera:
https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/Plus4Serial_RS_232_Serial_Port_Adapter_for_the_Plus_4_50c31d52.html
I just ordered few days ago 20pcs, if you will be interested later. buying more at the same time significantly reduces the assembly cost and the transportation cost (per piece).I ordered it with DHL I suppose I will have them within this year.
I think it will be perfect for the job.
The big benefit of SukkoPera solution, that it already has the male DB9 connector, you can directly connect the mouse to Sukko's solution, not to mention the User port connector you need to search and buy otherwise..
The below listed Max232 Circuits all uses female DB9 connector, so I needed a DB9 Male to Male interface (as you could see on the picture below) to able to connect RS232 mouse that had female connector.
For the C16 and C116 owners (my main platform due to PSU issues) SukkoPera designed a UserPort + BUILT IN RS232! Wow!
https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/16UP_User_Port_Cartridge_for_the_Commodore_16_116_and_Plus_4_2d0ad268.html
I suppose SukkoPera could have been really rich in the 80s with all these cards he designed
Too bad I cannot make it granted for now, he would deserve it.
An other almost ready solution (still need more parts and some soldering skills, DuPont cables) is the ready Max232 Citruit shown on the picture, and referred in the document.
Funny, but the whole circuit with all the other components, RS232 connector and PCB sometimes costs less thjan if you just buy a Max232 IC. So worth to consider:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254996908410
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-12-15
10:27:46
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@MMS
We have all the parts. I'll try to build it in a few days. If it doesn't work, the ready-made solution remains.
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Posted By
BSZ
on 2024-12-15
16:43:26
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Does the capacitor C3 in the PDF have to be connected to +5V? The picture you shared in the forum shows otherwise.
The cropped image includes a note that reads: "C3 can be connected to Vcc or GND."
Should I build it according to the picture (positive pin to pin 2 of MAX232, negative pin to pin N of the User port) or according to the pdf (negative pin to +5V, positive pin to pin 2 of MAX)?
Both versions are correct according to the documentation. (The negative pin of the capacitor should be connected to either GND or Vcc.)
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-12-16
04:22:45
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@MMS: May I ask if you bought those assembled or just PCBs? But anyway you are right: that adapter implements the same circuit as the mouse document and I have tested serial communication in both directions and all the signals individually. It is also definitely able to power a mouse correctly. PCB and components are cheap, so I really don't know why someone would take the trouble of building something else and not even look at the schematics, but well...
Be careful with the 16UP with the integrated serial port: the RTS/CTS/DTR/DSR/DCD signals are controlled by the serial port and are not exposed on the userport connector. Some hardware for the userport requires those and thus won't work correctly. That's why I came up with 16UP V3 + Plus4Serial. I would have some ideas to get everything working on a single board but... maybe in the future .
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-12-16
04:43:58
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@SukkoPera
I read what you wrote. Although you didn't address me, you wrote about me.
I'll explain it to you.
I didn't know that you could buy a ready-made circuit on the Ali Express website. That's why I bought the components and the test panel for pennies in the city where I live.
The circuit diagram in the PDF is wrong.
I'm not an electrical engineer. But I'm excited by the challenge and I want to improve in this field. What is clear to you, I only find out after asking questions.
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Posted By
George
on 2024-12-16
04:58:49
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
It would help to recommend the specific products you succesfully tested with the plus/4.
The specific adapter and model of the mouse that worked for you.
Otherwise its always try and error.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-12-16
05:13:46
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Andras: As I see it, not being proficient in electronics would be a good reason to do the simplest thing possible, which in this case would be to get a ready-made known-working PCB and solder the components on it. If you asked for one I would have even sent it to you for free. I can still do that by the way .
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-12-16
08:06:58
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@SukkoPera
Certainly I bought the fully assembled version.
My plan is a givaway action to gain market share for the new important mouse standard
Yeah, I read the C16 versions difference. I suppose it will require driver change too...
The HW modification listed sound is important
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-12-16
09:26:42
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I think the mouse will work on the C16 with the 16UP V2 board without any changes in the driver (it's pure serial communication), but my recommendation would be to use 16UP V3 + the normal Plus4Serial adapter board.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-12-16
12:42:30
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Hi, thanks for the hint. I ALMOST ordered 10 V2 yesterday, but somehow it became too pricy, so I have up yesterday till I found the cause. Today I think I found it.
The Plus/4 User Port adapter by default uses HALS finishing with lead, while the C16 V2 with built in RS232 has ENIG (Immersion Gold.
ENIG finishing results double price! So If I switch back to HASL, I get 30 USD for 20 pcs, certainly assembled.
I do not mind a little lead, I always wash my hands before eating.
Funny thing, that Immersion Tin (IT) is more expensive than Immersion Gold
(20 pcs with ENIG is $66USD, while IT in $88)
Update: why they add Hungarian (highest on the world) 27% VAT to shipping too? I need to consider and ask this.
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-12-16
14:03:27
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@SukkoPera
I have a sick brain. I am attracted to the challenge and learned a lot from this conversation. But if I am not happy with the soldering, I will accept your offer with thanks :)
@MMS
Vigasztalódj, a C64 Ultimate2+ crt-re is ráraktak a hollandok 27%VAT-ot, a magyar szabályoknak megfelelően. Nem értem miért. Ha kimegyek Hollandiába és megveszem személyesen, alacsonyabb lenne rá az adó.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-12-16
15:44:23
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Andras:
C64 Ultimate2+
szerintem az simán szabálytalan, EU-n belül. (I suppose that one it should be not legal, within EU)
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-12-17
00:21:33
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@MMS
Netto price 130.5 euro. Shipping cost:6.6 euro. VAT(Hungary):38.33 euro. No comment...
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-12-17
00:53:20
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
it could be valid only if they imported the goods from China (place of production after the order).
Maybe it is not produced within EU (to save cost), just they are not fully tranparent.
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Posted By
Crown
on 2024-12-17
00:56:37
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
It's completely legal, you are supposed to pay EU VAT online based on your residence, not based on origin of order.
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-12-17
01:27:22
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I understand what you're saying and I'm not arguing with you. I just don't understand why if I go to the Highlands or Vienna to shop, there's not 27% VAT on the stuff. I'd like to pay more tax. :D :D :D
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-12-17
10:35:19
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Crown i do not argue with your statement, just too sad to be true.
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-12-20
11:57:12
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@SukkoPera I'm giving up on the project. The panel is ready. The mouse cursor starts at the first start. It bounces back and forth across the screen. After that it stops and no matter how much I restart it, it doesn't do anything anymore. Please contact me by email.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-12-19
04:41:04
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Andras: I can send you a PCB but you would have to buy the components and solder them. PM your address if that's fine for you.
In alternative, maybe you can get a ready-made board from @MMS as soon as they are available?
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Posted By
George
on 2024-12-19
12:58:56
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
I think i soldered the mouse adapter in the wrong way..finding contraticting pinlayouts of the expansion port.
When i look from behind on the Plus/4 - Expansion port, where is Pin1? (on the c64 its top right)
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-12-19
13:44:42
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Hi, my batch is in preparation, the RS232 Max interfaces are ready, but still the 64K RAM upgrades are in preparation.
I will let you know when my DHL started
@George: as on the assembly picture: I made the picture about the User connector in the way as you need to assemble it (from the back side), so looking to the Plus/4 User port from outside (on the picture you see the assembly side of the user port connector you need to plus to the Plus/4)
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-12-20
04:36:18
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@George
A bővítőport rajza elölről nézve van. El kell képzelned a csatlakozó forrasztásához ezt.
@SukkoPera
Köszönöm. Először szerzek még egy soros egeret. Van ajánlott típus?
@MMS
Ha lesz kész táblád, szólsz? És tőled ugyanezt kérdezem. Van ajánlott egértípus? Sanszos, hogy az egér nem működik együtt a Plus/4-el
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@George
The expansion port's drawing is shown from the front. You will need to imagine this when soldering the connector.
@SukkoPera
Thank you. I'm going to get another mouse first. Is there a recommended model?
@MMS
When you have your board ready, will you let me know? And I'll ask you the same thing. Is there a recommended mouse type? Chances are, the mouse doesn't work with the Plus/4.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-12-20
05:14:55
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Actually you should ask @bszgggg, he's the author of the driver. I didn't have much luck with the two mice I have, but I should try again.
BTW, are the driver sources available?
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-12-20
05:44:39
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Andras: szabad egerem is van
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@Andras: I have a free mouse as well
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Posted By
George
on 2024-12-20
05:43:55
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
Sorry i confused the userport with the expansion-port, because i was also looking at a Expansionport-project.
Everything is ok.
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Posted By
Andras
on 2024-12-20
11:58:13
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@MMS
Ha lesz készre forrasztott paneled, szólj és egérrel együtt elviszem. Túl sok energiát fektettem bele. Tudni kell feladni
| Re: Mouse Extension v1.0
@MMS
If you have a fully soldered panel, let me know and I'll take it, along with the mouse. I put too much energy into this already. You have to know when to give up
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