| Posted By
carrion
on 2016-12-12
07:31:33
 |  Pepto palette for TED?
Guys
Hope you've seen this. Go to http://www.colodore.com and change for TED.
Pepto is back and this time he measured the colours again. He did TED this time too! 
Hope it can be implemented in Yape and/or Plus4Emu (more preferably  )
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Posted By
Luca
on 2016-12-12
07:45:25
 | Re: Pepto palette for TED?
Gaia has just been alerted hours ago
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2016-12-12
08:24:08
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
I haven't seen it, thanks for the heads up.
It's nice and interesting, and I realize "color is hard", but as a layman, I don't see any difference... The colors seem pretty much the same as YAPE/Plus4Emu now. What is it that you want to see implemented? This particular set of colors, or the brightness/etc controls?
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Posted By
Mad
on 2016-12-12
10:52:57
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
The tool it self is just to output a png with a preferred (almost original) display color palette. Perhaps it could be useful in gfx development, however I don't see the possibility to import pictures there. Perhaps the scanline display algorithm could be of interest, or you even could import the palette.png into an emulator.
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Posted By
carrion
on 2016-12-12
11:09:48
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
Well
I agree with Mad
The way I understand Pepto's work is to have proper PAL emulation.
If we can have a PAL emulation like this in C+4 emulator, that would be cool.
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2016-12-12
12:52:21
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
Hey carrion,
What is it that you miss from the display emulation in YAPE or plus4emu present in Pepto's webpage, that you can't configure in the emulators? Did you ever try changing them? YAPE has three different palettes and about 8 additional parameters. plus4emu has almost two dozen parameters that control displaying.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2016-12-12
12:55:55
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
Well, both YAPE and Plus4Emu already have PAL emulation, so I guess your emphasis is on the "PAL emulation like this". Which is what I'm curious about, I'm just simply not seeing any big differences. Is there anything specific you're looking at that makes colordore significantly better/different?
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Posted By
Mad
on 2016-12-12
13:06:10
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
http://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=7&topicid=121173#121205 he implemented an algorithm that almost fully emulates his analogue monitor picture on a normal lcd display.
So that should be the most reliable algorithm for displaying the image in an emulator, for looking almost like the real thing. I just think that is for perfectionists, but if you can have it, why not? 
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Posted By
carrion
on 2016-12-12
15:29:39
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
@gerliczer @Csabo
why so serious?
I don't use Yape. I use Plus4Emu and I'm happy with it.
I saw on Pepto's page few parameters like:
- Scan lines
- Hanover bars (whatever it is it makes the Pal emulation look more natural)
- Delay line - again, what is it?
- Chroma Subsampling- anyone?
All this I think make it looking more like 1084S - as he said.
In plus4emu I have only PAL emulation: level1 level2 level3 (again who knows what it means?) is it the same as described above.
And in yape??? I have only CRT emulation and palletes - which BTW I'm not happy with. That's why I use plus4emu which looks more like my 1084S output.
Theres more to emulate of the PAL outputs - for example the vertical lines I often see when using bad chinch cables, etc. but his emulation is the closest to what I get on real monitor.
And I agree with what Mad said...
you feel offended by my post? well... i'm sorry
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Posted By
Luca
on 2016-12-12
15:55:31
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
Ohohoh  I think that nobody would really deal with this subject so much seriously to feel "offended", really
I can only say that when I've seen the link this morning, I quickly passed it to Gaia, who's knocking a lot at the door of palettes and CRT emulation for his YAPE, and actually he has shown to me several results he used to compare to some real machines of his own that give different video output (and puzzle him the most ). An additional outer case study from such an influencial source can only be seen as a juicy bonus to the cause
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2016-12-12
16:20:18
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
@carrion
"Why so serious?" And you keep the blade of your knife in the corner of my mouth while asking, aren't you?
Both plus4emu and YAPE has more control over the CRT emulation than you ever bothered to try. Furthermore, you have no idea what Pepto did. What makes you so sure that it is really necessary to be added to the emulators?
And no, I'm not offended. Why should I be? I didn't write any of the emus. I was just curious.
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2016-12-12
16:24:21
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
Delay line, scanlines, chroma subsampling, hanover bars are all emulated by most emulators by now.
YAPE has been having a "pepto" inspired palette since 2001 (more or less since the original article was published I believe). Actually, we had the luxury that the original hues were published in the preliminary TED documentation. Unfortunately they have been proven to be off by quite some margin (hence "preliminary" I guess). I still kept it in YAPE for the kicks of it (and who knows there might be prototypes with a 7360R1 around having those actual hues? The NTSC hues look a lot closer for example).
These are those original (preliminary) hues starting from red (in degrees, converted to PAL):
103, 283, 53, 241, 347, 167, 129, 148, 195, 83, 265, 323, 5 (23), 213
Maybe #14 is changed since it was so much off I am not sure anymore (it's easy to check though).
These are the hues extracted from pepto's website:
101.25, 281.25, 56.25, 236.25, 348.75, 168.75, 123.75, 146.25, 191.25, 78.75, 258.75, 326.25, 11.25, 213.75
By the looks of it I would say the pepto TED palette is a nice 'desk research' attempt at conceptualizing the TED colours... it is placing the hues on the circle in an idealistic "equidistant" pattern. Some colours seem way off to me just by comparing it to my TV card's output (like pink, for example). Could be that this is what we could find on the actual silicon but gets distorted by the myriads of analogue circuitry and the TV cards.
The thing is, the TED developers have been clearly thinking in North American NTSC terms, so those weird hues ending with 3's are actually nice round NTSC hues rotated by 33 degrees (as is required). So if there is a nice "round" hue table than it almost certainly in NTSC and would look like those in the original TED docs:
70, 250, 20, 200, etc.
These are the hues from plus4emu:
103.0f, 283.0f, 53.0f, 240.0f, 347.0f, 167.0f, 130.0f, 148.0f, 195.0f, 83.0f, 265.0f, 323.0f, 3.0f, 213.0f
Finally the hues from the latest YAPE branch (PAL palette, no CRT emulation):
105, 280, 53, 240, 345, 167, 135, 150, 190, 89, 270, 320, 1, 210
These are the ones that I have calibrated with one of my plus/4's using a TV card. Admittedly it's probably not quite like a 1084s but then again there is so much analogue stuff going on in there that it is as good as anyone's guess. I have been struggling a bit with the clipping of the Y'UV values and especially how these should be converted to YCbRB (which is a format using chroma subsampling but is not what happens in a real CRT). Anyway, the ultimate solution will be feeding the YUV colour data to some pixel shader which can do all the fancy CRT magic stuff and convert everything to RGB). Have a look at here:
http://filthypants.blogspot.hu/2011/05/more-emulator-pixel-shaders-crt-updated.html
You see colours are very "subjective", our eyes can be very different and generally most people are a lot less perceptive to changes in hue than changes in luma. So there won't ever be a palette that everybody'll like But You, as an artist, are probably a lot more affluent
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2016-12-12
17:04:43
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
Heh, I guess since that question was directed at me, I should answer. "Why so serious?" I guess cause this is not a funny topic by any means? Should I have added more smileys to my questions?
gerliczer already said he's not offended, and neither am I, in fact, I'm baffled anyone would think that. Offended at what? We're all just chatting. We're just curious about what you're seeing.
I absolutely do remember pepto and this post:
http://www.pepto.de/projects/colorvic/2001/index.html
Massive difference there! The old C64 palette referenced there was way off.
That said, I'm just not seeing the same big "jump" for the TED palette. Perhaps a side-by-side comparison is what I would need. But actually, at this point, because of the tone of this thread, I'm feel like I'm done with this, let's all just drop it and move on.
In the end, we're all for improving emulation, so... Go Gaia
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Posted By
carrion
on 2016-12-13
03:20:20
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
I wasn't aware of the features of emulators and lots of work you put into this. Looks like Peptos work no applies here.
Thanks for explanation.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2016-12-13
16:47:02
 | Re: Pepto palette for TED?
Well it is interesting, but just discussed this dithering topic with someone, and I have a sample picture we checked in more details.
The first is the HFLI picture converted with Plus4Emu's GFX converted some month ago, and after some finetuning on the original picture, I was rather satisfied with the end result (except some parts I still need to improve, like reduce white dots on the neck, one bad pixel above eyebrow, next to the lips a dark one and the upper line on the picture (It was not there on the original))
As far as I know there is no HFLI editor/crosstool exist with Plus4 palette, so I did it in this way, but maybe I was just not smart enough :-)
This is how it looks on my Dell Ultrasharp with Plus4Emu's Quality3 setting. Made with my Samsung phone, 8MP.
(sorry for the size of the pics, but when I started to reduce the original 8Megapixel files something close to the 640x400, the important small details started to disappear due to dithering. so I tried to keep a little higher resolution, but with small uploaded filesize)
Till today I think it is one of the most faithful reproduction of the CRT's color washing effect and the rasterlines look very similar to the one1s I saw on my parents Orion Viking CRT TV I spent some hundred hours with (+C16).
http://plus4world.powweb.com/dl/forum/20161213_161536_4630_FacewithCRTemu_MQ.jpg
(how Plus4Emu reaches it, I do not know completely, as i remember uses it some OpenGL libraries for that. As far as I can see (and you can freely play a lot with them): Quality0 is the pure pixels a on LCD. Quality1 is strong motion blur effect, Quality2 does something with the edges (simulation the CRT not-so-digital picture), and Quality3 adds the scanlines to the previous two,and I REALLY like it, look very similar to what I saw on CRTs))
When you take the original HFLI picture with Quality0 it does not look SOO impressive. To say the least
http://plus4world.powweb.com/dl/forum/20161213_163109_1152_FacenoCRTemu_MQ.jpg
I suppose most of the people checked my FLI slideshows (I released in the last years) with YAPE and sharply set pixel exacts picture emulation, and they could be less impressed with the end-result that me with Plus4Emu Quality 3 settings.
(OK, some of the pics on the final releases were really lame)
Just to mention: try to check some of the FLI slideshows with that Plus4emu Quality3 setting. Really nice end result.
Certainly the same could be done with color pictures too, but... I feel the B&W pictures fit the most :-)
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Posted By
Mad
on 2016-12-23
10:06:00
| Re: Pepto palette for TED?
That's really awesome. If it is really the look of a CRT monitor, than that is convincing. However there are also emulator settings on other emulators which make the games from around the 80s look like 2000er games (rounding the pixel edges and so on).
I think peptos approach was not to make it look good, he wanted instead to have the completely same picture on his monitor than on the lcd.
But the quality 3 setting really looks astonishing, perhaps the viking monitor looks really the same, don't know ! (Next picture shows go (most probably) also to plus4emu, thanks!)
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