Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-23
15:18:57
 |  MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make us DIZZY with a video guide on how to play Pin Point: [ Watch on YouTube ]
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2014-10-23
15:18:57
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Oh goodness, that was so awesome  Just hearing you talk and all that was amazing, made me realize how much I miss the personal connection with all you guys.
And then, when you started playing... o_O Are you a wizard?! Man, that is some skill. Speaking as someone who hasn't been able to finish even the first level... Wow!
Now, about the bugged level: did anyone look into this and try to fix it? Like how Oblido eventually got a fix. Anyone?
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2014-10-23
16:49:13
 | Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Wow, that's fantastic. Completely wipes the floor with my Dirty Den longplay as that game really does take some jedi skills to beat, plus it was achieved on a real machine along with commentary and tips making it extra personal. Great video mate, well played 
I'd love to see a fix for this too, surely it can and must be done. Then MIK can do a proper full longplay of it.
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2014-10-23
16:47:32
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Jawdropping and unreal I still think there is some trickery going on there like special effects, CGI or something  Just remembering how badly I sucked at it: after a few days passed level one back then but never reached past level 2 
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2014-10-23
17:04:47
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Also, you may as well update your hi-score on that one mate. That video is proof that you've just thrashed your previous
Noticed on the actual Pin Point game entry that you can select the starting level with a poke. It would have been great if you had included beating the last 2 levels too at the end so we can at least see how it was. I think you should do another (part 2) follow-up commentary video.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-23
17:22:24
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Glad you enjoyed it guys. Hope it helps if you ever fancy the challenge.
I made this video first thinking it would be better so people could see it being done with some voice along the way. I then started trying to recorded the perfect run on DVDR like the old video's and while I was close to that, my PC Tower harddrive died yesterday meaning I can't make the video's the old way any more. That forced me to go with the camcorder run. I knew my PC was going, just a question of when. Windows messed it's self up trying to fix errors "it" created, you know the one...
It's strange watching it back, being done on the fly, talking to my self in an empty room... I kept saying "Obviously" or was it "Basically", one too many for my liking. 
As far as I know Level 8 has never been fixed, it's also bugged in the level select crack version, and as you see in Noro's map who is the only other known person to get this far.
The black tape in the video is mine from the UK, the white tape I got from Germany a while back and that is also bugged.
Playing some more I did find a path around those massive tower blocks, going in behind and coming right around to the left side of the screen. However that tower on the near left can not be passed so you can't get onto the final 6 squares you see below.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-23
17:50:19
 | Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
What.
A.
Video.
:o
And what about a little preview of Level 9 and 10? ;)
 
This should fix the level 8 bug:
>33EC 00 00 0A
If you want a dedicated 16K trainer+fix release, you have simply to ask for it ;)
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-23
20:51:17
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
There is already a level select version on the site, that's how Noro added levels 9 & 10 to his map, back in 2000.
http://plus4world.powweb.com/dl/maps/pinpoint/pinpoint_map.gif
How cool would it of been once you completed it if Darren Clarke had designed the game so it could of been played backwards, so the Goal becomes the Start and the Start becomes the Goal. The jumps in the game don't have reverse ramps to go backwards properly though. Some levels I have gone backwards as far as I could get and it proves interesting, sometimes testing to do so as if your playing a whole new game! Twice the miles for your money. :)
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2014-10-23
21:14:43
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Luca, please may you release a dedicated fixed 16K trainer+fix release
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-24
02:18:14
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
In the meantime I'm gonna change the .prg too on Othersi and Plus/4 World, just to be nitpicking: the original game occupies $0FE8-$3FFF and the current exomized file is $0FE8-$4000
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-24
17:16:53
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Is the bug on level 8 the reason it crashes on Level 2 using a C16 or C16+32k ram? Or is there some memory shifting going on?
If your going to fix it Luca make two prg's of it.
1st. An official fixed one with "nothing" else added to it just like it should of been seen.
2nd. A trainer version in the way you want it, such as level select and timer stop. If there is any memory left how about an option to change the background colour, just a bit of fun to make it look different, linked to the main menu on a key or something, like press C and the colours loop round and round until your happy with one. Imagine a red or green background.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-24
11:33:39
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Mmmmno, the level 8 map has 3 wrong values since the beginning, no memory stuff involved. Anyway, tell me about this bug with less than 64K usage, I'm quite interest: what does actually happen?
Pin Point code is quite a mess, in a certain location there's some BASIC stuff and there are debris of coding here and there.
Oh well, you can do the "official version" yourself simply using the fix I added on the page, both on emulators and from the real machine monitor. Colours change? It's easy, lemme see if there's some space left anyway
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-24
11:48:18
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
As soon as you go to level 2 after completing level 1 on a machine with less than 64k the whole screen messes up as if it's in the wrong gfx mode. and if I remember correct it dumps you into the built-in monitor, crashed...
It's also a good give away that the actual game was made on a Plus/4.
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2014-10-24
12:47:59
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
MIK is definitely heads up on this one. Can't argue with someone who can actually beat the game as it stands
PS. Dirty Den is fine as is, no changes needed. You're just all nearly shit at that as I am moreso on Pin Point.
My point being, I'd also like to see an official fixed untrained 16K version of Pin Point before a fixed 16K trained one
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-24
14:43:47
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Had a ride over the Pin Point bug which prevents it to run on a 16K machine and, have to say, it looks to be quite obscure to me, even though I know where the tragedy occurs... :/
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-24
17:51:57
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
In the UK magazine Commodore Force, issue 11, (1993). They did the top 100 C64 games of all time. Spin Dizzy believe it or not is No.10 in that list!
I know Pin Point is not as smooth or as slick with the controls as Spin Dizzy, not even the same game... yet what we do have if you can master it is one corker of a game in it's own right. It might be hard but it's a gem for sure. It most defo is a great one for our system even if it officially has bugs... That's just a shame but hopefully that's something that can be fixed. Even if it works out that the game will always be a 64k machine only game, it's a game to be proud of!
C64 got theirs, we have ours!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-24
20:45:02
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Csabo would eventually give a hand to solve the infamous 16k bug this weekend, hence the release will be delayed of a couple of days. Following the international standards of games cracking, it will be a juicy +4MF 101% [pal/ntsc].
EDIT: hey I found and resolved the 16K bug ;)
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-25
06:38:26
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Ok, the infamous 16K bug has been found and fixed
A brief explanation follows.
After the mistake in level 8, there's another unrelated typo from the author:
--- [cut] ---
. 3663 EE F8 18 INC $18F8
. 3666 AD F8 18 LDA $18F8
. 3669 C9 28 CMP #$28
. 366B F0 0E BEQ $367B
. 366D A2 30 LDX #$30
. 366F 8E FB 18 STX $18FB
. 3672 8E FC E0 STX $E0FC
. 3675 20 B0 18 JSR $18B0
--- [cut] ---
The author should have written "STX $18FC" instead!
All the sfx in Pin Point are cunningly produced with a single engine that replays the same effect at a decreasing volume, once the duration and frequency have been set. $18FB and $18FC are the two variables needed before JSR toward it.
The very first time this particular sound effect with bugged code is requested is here:
This is a weird passage, because you can even not jump to reach the other platforms and you won't die (if you do the same in the opposite direction, from the reached ramp to the original accessing position you'll die instead, weird we've said, uh...).
Anyway... When this jump is performed, the sfx routine is called from the memory we've just seen above, and due to the typo, the value 30 is written in location $E0FC on a Plus/4 (a game into $0000- $3FFF memory range of course is not affected by this), in location $60FC on a 32K machine due the wrap on (same as before), and in location $20FC on a C16/C116 due to the wrap on (o-oh!).
What of the game code lies in around $20FC memory? Well, there can be found the code that draws the game screen line per line:
--- [cut] ---
. 20F9 BD F0 0C LDA $0CF0,X
. 20FC 60 RTS
. 20FD C0 07 CPY #$07
. 20FF D0 04 BNE $2105
. 2101 BD 18 0D LDA $0D18,X
. 2104 60 RTS
. 2105 C0 08 CPY #$08
. 2107 D0 04 BNE $210D
. 2109 BD 40 0D LDA $0D40,X
--- [cut] ---
Due the author's mistake, after that jump, the value 60 in $20FC (which means the RTS command) is changed to 30. No more RTS, no more exact code in the screen drawing, no more return to subroutine, so the sacrosanct cascade of bad words from the buyer of the game occurs 
Fixing? Easy, and you've just got howto:
>3674 18
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2014-10-25
07:23:36
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
I can't believe I'm about to say this.
Well done for finally pinpointing it
Now, about this upcoming trainer/fix
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-25
07:29:53
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Great you found the bug guys!!
A bit strainge your showing the second jump in the game, did the first jump not also causes the bug to take effect?
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-25
07:55:55
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Nope, because the jump sfx depends from the jump distance. That jump exactly needs that fx...which is bugged.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-25
14:26:42
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
The plain doublefixed version of Pin Point is now on the page to be downloaded
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-25
18:45:43
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Awesome work guys!!! I finally get to play all the levels from start to finish. It felt strange when I completed Level 8 lol, I died on Level 9 from all the excitement. A C16/Plus4 gem finally gets the justice it deserves.
I'll put a note of the pokes inside the cassette boxes for safe keeping.
Two for the price of one:
Level 8 bug now fixed.
With the original tape I tried all the new pokes on a real C16 with 16K and she looks and plays great!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-26
07:23:41
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Ok, I should have finished to train and fix the game for the forthcoming release. It has level selection from the title screen, instant level pass cheat, time stopper switch and a sort of invulnerabily which can be of some help but has to be used quite wisely because the game mapping does not consider zero tiles hence map and graphics tend to mismatch at some point. I added a quit game fetures too, and the game can be played both on PAL and NTSC now.
Oh, and yes, the MIK's feature: you can change the colours :)
The only colour that changes along the levels is the brighest one, which simply is the maximum luminosity of the color as corresponding to the level you're playing: level 1 is white, level 2 is red, level 3 is cyan and so on. This color setting is performed any time the screen has to be drawm, and this means you could choose your palette but that particular color will change at any new screen. To avoid this, my added feature unlinks this code the very first time the brighest color has been changed, and from that point the levels will show _your_ chosen color instead.
Let's threat the intro then...
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2014-10-26
10:08:09
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Excellent teamwork, guys, thumbs up! One humble suggestion: we might wish to recreate a fixed up Anco TAP along with the same or similar turbo loader and loading screen... that'd be awesome.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-26
10:21:46
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
It would be best if this option applies to the "blue" background colour ONLY Luca. The tile colours should be left alone!
The reason why is because Pin Point looks better than Spin Dizzy. If you allow people to change the tiles it defeats the object...
Look how messy Spin Dizzy is with all the different colour tiles... it looks ugly at times.
http://www.lemon64.com/?mainurl=http%3A//www.lemon64.com/games/details.php%3FID%3D2419
If you press C in Spin Dizzy on C64 while playing it changes between colour and monochrome. The colouring in Pin Point is so good that I'm sure Darren Clarke did this on purpose knowing what Spin Dizzy does and can look like at times. The tiles are perfect as they are in Pin Point and they should stand out with most colours other than black and really, really dark colours where the spinning top may look lost .
It's the very same thing I did with Sky Hawk, just with your skills you can make it an option in-game that rotates/loops by simply pressing a key on the main menu or something...
PS. Have you notice on LEUEL 3, the "score" and "bonus" boxes are different colours. Another little typo.
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2014-10-26
10:45:49
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
I am still forever having trouble getting across this ramp. You make it look so damn easy 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FovwoWbEKFg&t=3m13s
Admittedly I'm using an emulator right now, controls don't seem to work properly for me with YAPE, so am using VICE right now. Is this one of those games which can only really be played on the real machines?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-26
11:00:36
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Baz,
Yes, real machine for best results.
Press the fire button to get the momentum to run down the hill at max speed, and then allow the spinning top to travel at it's own pace meaning you only have to steer ever so slightly when you reach the bottom. You do not need to force it up the hill in that direction as it will do it it's self, just let it roll under it's own pace and gravity from the other side, using fire to kickstart the spinning.
In other words...
Press Fire and pull Down to go down the hill and then let go of fire, then press nothing other than tapping over to the left to guide it up the hill and the spinning top will arrive on the other side under it's own weight..
Nice to see your having a go any way. :)
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2014-10-29
00:42:59
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
ah excellent, thanks for the tip. Finally completed level 1 after nearly 30 years of wondering. Now I might actually get somewhere with it 
edit: But this was on VICE emulator which makes the game run a little slower thus making it a lot easier. I'm now playing it on my real C16 and I still can't do it, lol. Years of practise is definitely recommended.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-28
21:47:06
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
The trained version is ready too, I had to fight against that horrible piece of code which doesn't set some things at the beginning, and dunno why it crashes if I use in the intro the memory at $0700 or part of $04f8-$057f. Luckily, the main game has been greatly reduced by the packer, due to the big data per level ($0100 per level!), so I have (relatively) plenty of space left to move memory slices around. The stuff has been tested on real iron too. I'll upload tomorrow, 'coz now is 2:42 AM and well...*snort*
Just to add another one: there's an unused tape loading code at $13D7, why? Maybe the author did think to a multiload game at first?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-28
22:02:43
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Sorry Baz,
The video is the very same thing you would see if I played your real C16 indoors right now, I'd still bring my cheetah along though as the precision is very good for such a game, much like the original Plus/4 stick to use.. I would play crap with a Zip Stik or Konix, you need a stick that will give you a good tight feel for the game. That's me any way. I could not play it on keys like I do on stick lol.
I just tried on Yape 1.0.5 on my notebook in full screen mode via VGA out and Pin Point plays very good. I'm using a retro adapter so I can use my cheetah with Yape!
If anything is to be said the spinning top feels a little heavy compared to the real machine and there is a very, very small pixel amount of over run when you let go of the controls in the timing to a real machine. A couple of goes to get used to the new weight and I just did level 1 with no problem which is a 1st on any emulator, honestly!
As you have the real thing too, you should be able to see for your self, yape as it is now is very close to how it would feel and play on a real machine.
If we ever get to meet I will show you how to play it, in the same room I can talk more and answer what you want to know there and then. Even have a game of Winter Events with ya.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-29
04:24:14
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Hey, me too wanna register for the Winter Events challenge. And there's one free slot yet
Last night I gave a try to the trained version of Pin Point on the real machine, just to see if the logo in the intro would or not show some wrong rasters that YAPE missed (you can't imagine how many changes that intro sustains release after release!), and I caught the change on the fly to play the game on it. Confirmed: Pin Point plays definitively different on the real iron. I play with the Speedking, which may feel a bit 'gluey' in some movements but its hard switching makes any move quite sure.
EDIT: Pin Point +4MF 101% [PAL/NTSC]
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2014-10-29
08:01:43
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Nice work Luca! Yours is the ultimate version
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-29
08:40:07
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Thank you! And thanks again for the new tune, I like it a lot. I still wonder what in $0700-$07DF, and what in $04F8-$057F did disturb the game's IRQ routine although all my SEI and STA $FF3E...
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-29
10:06:51
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Peach! I've never seen this colour on Plus/4 before.
Very cool update and great tune Csabo! Cheers guys!
One small thing... I pressed Caps Lock to press Run/Stop when I should of pressed Tab. I didn't think anything of it, but then the spinning top went up the 1st ramp without pressing fire, was really strange and I was thinking the game was bugged or something. It doesn't play properly with caps lock down so if it goes up the first ramp without pressing fire then you know what it is...
Good update though Luca, very cool. Cheers.
EDIT: Noro, where are you buddy as your missing out and your awesome map needs a minor update!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-29
11:36:57
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Eh MIK, for the same reason you can start the game with SHIFT even while playing the original one: the author didn't shut the keys off in the joystick managing code
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-10-30
05:18:44
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
This problem exists because of the design of PC keyboards. Commodore ones such as the Amiga are better.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-10-30
05:29:41
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
For the same reason, you can play the game using the keys 3 4 A W Shift, of course the same characters you see waggling the joystick in port 2.
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Posted By
Noro
on 2014-11-23
06:01:10
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Amazing guys ... Here we go ... I just uploaded the fixed version of my map (pinpoint_fix_map.gif)
Again ... A M A Z I N G !!!! 
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Posted By
MIK
on 2014-11-23
06:17:49
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Great to see you Noro!
A fix for the actual game was a long time coming, never thought the day would come but it's finally here! Very cool of you to fix your map!
The newer version allows you to change the colors which makes it fresh, have a play.
BTW you may not know who MIK is, he's old Lando your old Pin Point buddy from years ago.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-11-23
09:04:42
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Added! Noro says the last word about the Pin Point affair
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2014-11-23
11:00:51
| Re: MIK goes for a SPIN trying to make...
Hey Noro... back after more than 10 years, that was some break! Nice to see you around!
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