Posted By
indi
on 2006-10-19
04:58:49
|  SID cards.
Can someone setup a POLL on here? I'd like to get an idea of the number of actual SID cards out there. Its not a problem if not, I'd just like to know....
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Posted By
Luca
on 2006-10-19
05:30:57
 | Re: SID cards.
A big slice of SIDcard's market hit the Germany, many Club-info readers got one, and probably they couldn't know about the poll, hence there would be a cohefficient to the poll's result.
Bionic should have the best assessment about how many had been sold.
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Posted By
Chris
on 2006-10-19
07:35:26
| Re: SID cards.
I have two sid cards, one of which is loaned out to Allan from Commodore Scene.
Regards the new sid cards, I have asked Jurek for a update, full technical specification and a realistic release date.
Chris 
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Posted By
Luca
on 2006-10-19
08:53:46
| Re: SID cards.
I have a piggy bank with a sign on:"To Chris".
Hope to break it soon.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2006-10-20
03:02:36
| Re: SID cards.
Csabo added the poll, you can see it in home, the column on the left. Join in any case.
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Posted By
Solder
on 2006-10-26
06:01:57
| Re: SID cards.
Hello,
I could check the invoices from the board manufacturer to see how many boards I have ordered (I think 60 to 70). The first version from SID-card was without complete joy-port and only with $fd40-adresses. I think, I changed all these cards to the newer version (was a special price for this users).
Solder
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2006-10-26
07:24:42
 | Re: SID cards.
About the new SID card...
I wish the developers would care about an issue that has been brought up by Bionic a while back, ie featuring the original C64 clock to make C64 SID tunes sound like they are supposed to sound. It's a (sad?) fact that most musics are taken from the C64 and not orginally composed on plus/4. Some ppl might argue that they don't hear the difference. But to many SID freaks it's very obvious.
Maybe it's possible to have both clocks available? I'm not into hardware and don't know if this adds a lot of extra stuff but I would really like to see this.
Furthermore, I think the joyport shouldn't be optional but already mounted. The SIDcard (by SOLDER) had it and it became a standard, even if not many apps use it. One could argue "Why include it? The plus/4 already got two joyports. And there aren't many apps for it anyway." However, having a standard SUB-D 9 pin connector allows you to use standard "Atari" joysticks without needing an adapter and one can use the CBM mouse. Moreover, it's not really hard to patch a game for the SIDcard joyport when it already supports joysticks. And if the hardware already decodes $fd80 for it, why not go all the way? So please include it, it won't add much to the price.
Something else... What about audio connectors? I'd rather see cinch connectors because the 3,5mm plugs wear out easily. This would make handling of two SIDs more obvious, too, since each one gets a dedicated output.
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Posted By
indi
on 2006-10-26
11:48:19
| Re: SID cards.
I tell you what I'd LOVE!!
A SID card with a 256k (or above) RAM expansion on it....man... would that be sweet. I would probably even do a super-charged XeO3 for that!!!
:D
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Posted By
Luca
on 2006-10-26
11:51:14
| Re: SID cards.
The SIDcard XeO3 special edition, fiiiine! 
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Posted By
Solder
on 2006-10-26
13:23:30
| Re: SID cards.
Hello,
I searched for the invoices: I found 6 invoices from 1993 to 1998 with 62 PCB for SID-cards. As I remember there was 10 or 20 PCB I ordered over an electronic shop in Poland. I have actually circa 5 empty PCB.
Solder
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Posted By
indi
on 2006-10-26
16:27:11
| Re: SID cards.
Yeah! a special edition XeO3 card.... Add an IDE interface to that!
Plus/4 with a compact flash or HD...Yummy!
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2006-10-26
18:31:06
| Re: SID cards.
i think guys, u need to talk to chris!!!!
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Posted By
Solder
on 2006-10-27
04:20:42
| Re: SID cards.
Hello MikeD,
> A SID card with a 256k (or above) RAM expansion on it
> IDE interface
I hope, this is a joke. I think, a plus/4 should be a plus/4 and not a pc. Otherwise use YAPE and you will get both  But, what is really needed? External 256kB expansion is difficult or impossible without internal changes (but these are small changes).
Solder
P.S. What is with the GALs for the new SID-card? I have read that there are problems with programming?
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Posted By
indi
on 2006-10-27
08:21:11
| Re: SID cards.
Hay Solder!
Nah! I'd love to have a little more RAM to make games a little better - just like Amiga's etc. can do, and having it as a cartridge would make it a lot more accessable to everyone rather than those who can actually make one themselves.
How did the C64 do the 256k and 512k ram expansions? they seemed to manage okay... a 4,8 or 16k "bank" register or something...
I'd love an IDE for a compact flash not to make it a "PC", but so I can load it with games easily - thats all.
And since theres a "new SID" card being made that lots will want to buy, I thought this would be the ideal oppertunity to provide a huge upgrade! It could be great!!
However, all that aside.... a SID card people can actually buy would be a great boon - no matter what the spec!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2006-10-27
09:05:01
| Re: SID cards.
I'm with Solder: a +4 with 1Gig HD, 20MHz CPU, new gfx dedicated chip, QuadraSID and coffee machine is no more a +4.
All the ideas are welcome, of course. But first of all, it would be great if the basic SIDcard will be produced and spreadt.
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Posted By
Solder
on 2006-10-27
09:31:05
| Re: SID cards.
Hello Mike,
> How did the C64 do the 256k and 512k ram expansions? they seemed to manage okay... a 4,8 or 16k "bank" register or something...
The C64 has the ability for extern DMA to swap the memory fast from REU or modern CMD-devices to the memory. I think, this is no memory expansion, it's an fast RAM-drive (without filesystem). There is a german memory expansion for C64 (I forgot the name) wich uses I/O for transfer. It was very slow.
The plus/4 has capabilities for an external RAM-drive by using I/O. The I/O-area from $fe00 to $fe7f is free. So can map a large RAM in 128 Byte-Blocks in this area. But it's not fast (works like this slow expansion from C64).
External DMA for plus/4 isn't possible because missing DMA line. You need internal modifications to create one. I think, then it's better to insert 256k directly into plus/4.
> I'd love an IDE for a compact flash not to make it a "PC", but so I can load it with games easily - thats all.
IDE is maybe not the problem with slow I/O-transfer, but you need also a filesystem, controlled from plus/4... The filesystem on floppydisks is controlled by the floppydrive.
Do you need this physically small memory or a fast connection?
> And since theres a "new SID" card being made that lots will want to buy, I thought this would be the ideal oppertunity to provide a huge upgrade! It could be great!!
I think then it's better to create a new plus/4-board with all these things integrated. But better: A thing like C64 DTV with all the special plus/4 chips new designed in one chip (CPU, TED, SID...) so you will have no problems to get them for the future. But I think, this is - and will be - just a dream. We have discussed these things 10 years ago...
Solder
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Posted By
indi
on 2006-10-27
09:32:38
| Re: SID cards.
Well, theres more to it than that.
A compact flash (or MMC) is nothing more than a big floppy although easier to get content onto (after using the MMC64, I can vouch for this!)
Everyone loves the SID card, yet the +4 didnt have that native so its "no longer a +4" anyway, and people have already gotten more memory in +4's and some programs do take advantage.
While a 20Mhz CPU would be interestingm yes - its taking it a bit too far. But I don't see an issue with the rest of it and since most of its already been done before (in some shape or form), I can see that no one else really does either. Its just a question of having it all in one place, one add on. That way everyone can catch up rather not being able to because some aren't being sold anymore, or the person making it has left thge scene - whatever.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2006-10-27
11:22:20
| Re: SID cards.
I'd rather see the plus/4 stay a plus/4, too. With the SID card (even though I like it) I got mixed feelings, too, sometimes. If it's supported, great. But I don't like games/demos that are silent without it. Still, the SID card is a bit different from other "add ons" because many games and most demos use SID musics (or converted ones) anyway.
Other add ons should be just for convenience and not mandatory to run software. And maybe developers should focus together on efforts that are already made. That 1541III (an MMC/SD drive on the serial port) comes to my mind. It's nice for mass storage and file transfer. And obviously, it works on C16 already. I haven't followed the development recently but I'll check again.
The "...HANNES.../SOLDER" 256kb extension (and the CSORY one) are somewhat standards. Another one would just add confusion and I don't wanna buy a 256kb extension just for one game (Sorry, Mike ).
That's why I think the new SID card should be just a SID card (though keeping compatibility to the old one, including a mounted joyport) and not a swiss army knife.
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Posted By
indi
on 2006-10-27
11:39:47
| Re: SID cards.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a SID card that people can actually buy - instead of just hearing about them and using it through emulators. But, I'd also love a 256k memory expansion, and theres no way I'd manage to do that myself, so a nice cartridge one would be ideal! .....but I also love my SID card.....
Also....Its always the case that you have to build it and make it readily available before anyone will support it with software.
I an curious though.....If someone had made a memory expansion back when the +4 was going strong (well....sstrong-ish), would that have made it any LESS a +4 now? Or is it simply that the current retro programs won't use it - so it's not a +4. C= themselves made a 256k+512k C64 Ram expansion, but that doesn't make it any less a C64. Just my opinion though
The problem with making a new +4 compatable machine is that people view it as a new machine - although this hasn't stopped the DTV. If the DTV was sold with a keyboard and MMC "disk drive", I think more people would be interested in it. But as it is, its ONLY hardware hackers that can play with it - which is a pitty. Its also nice and cheap... I have seen a hardware hack where it put one of them inside a C64 keyboard - this was pretty cool.
Its a pitty about the missing lines, but I having access to slower memory (via DMA) would probably be fine and let us stream stuff in as we need it. Same for the IDE/MMC etc. Just being able to access it would be fine - mass storage via this would still be quicker than floppy. For a ROM, can't you put a FLASH-ROM on the cartridge port that could install keys (like 3-in-1) and just do a kernal PATCH or something?
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2006-10-27
12:04:46
| Re: SID cards.
The "plus/4 should stay plus/4" was aimed at those 20MHz CPUs. Sure, would be a nice toy to play around with but so is the plus/4 already and I rather have two ppl see my stuff than just me
I agree with you (Mike) that a "cartridge" version is nice for all (including me) who can't build one themselves. But technically that's not possible unless it's more or less only a "ram drive".
On the other hand, there are ppl around who actually like to build stuff. Maybe we should set up a list of ppl who are willing to do hardware upgrades (for reasonable fees).
About the DTV...
Was it meant as "hardware" to play with? I think it was aimed and "nostalgia gamers" and hackers got lucky from the start because those ports etc were already included (maybe one could even say "sneaked into"). Keep in mind that this was sold via teleshopping (QVC?). And it was sold out I think (at least the NTSC version).
But, yes... I'd pay a little extra if ports were already mounted etc I've seen some nice stuff done with the DTV64 and it almost fits in everywhere. But that wouldn't add many buyers and increase the cost of prducing it.
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Posted By
Solder
on 2006-10-27
13:03:34
| Re: SID cards.
Hello Mike,
one thing do you wish is available: "external sRAM-card", up to 1MB, standard is 256kB. Writing to it is with parallel switching to RAM from $4000 to $c000. Reading is like an external modul: $8000 to $ffff (except I/O) in bank a and f and some areas (standard: 4, with 1MB: 16). The card is completely register (software) controlled, but has hardware writeprotect switch.
I think, it's not an RAM-expansion, it's more an external easy writable "ROM"-modul and it was thought as this (no EPROM-burner needed). But with controlling software (not available) it could be a RAM-disk.
You can write to the RAMs without lost of internal plus/4-ram: read plus/4 memory value, switch sRAM-card writing on, write to sRAM-card, switch sRAM-card writing of, write plus/4-memory value back. Reading is more easy: Just activate needed area and ROM-bank.
Solder
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Posted By
Luca
on 2006-10-27
13:14:54
| Re: SID cards.
Hey, opening a bracket, please appease me: did Solder and Chris get in contact in the end? I would say: in the very end, will someone release this desired craved wished beloved trusted piece of hardware we all know as...SIDcard?
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Posted By
RobertB
on 2006-10-27
16:44:17
| Re: SID cards.
Chicken wrote:
> Keep in mind that this was sold via teleshopping (QVC?).
Initially, the C64 DTV (NTSC version) was sold via the QVC shopping t.v. channel. 30K of the units were also sold through Kaybee Toys in the states. The last run of NTSC DTV's were sold through Toys R Us.
> And it was sold out I think (at > least the NTSC version).
QVC still has them in stock (as do some Kaybee Toys and Toys R Us stores).
Join us at the FCUG table at
the Vintage Computer Festival 9.0
Nov. 4-5,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
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Posted By
Solder
on 2006-10-27
16:58:37
| Re: SID cards.
@ Chicken: C64 DTV PAL version is available from www.reichelt.de for 19,90 EUR. I have purchased one some month ago. Yes, I think it's a complete C64. In the Internet are instructions for all things you need to make it to an C64.
Solder
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2006-10-27
17:47:21
| Re: SID cards.
Solder,
yeah... I saw them at REICHELT and was planning on buying one. Just don't have the time for it right now and I need to find a magic soldering iron that does all the mods for me 
Sorry, by "sold out" I meant the first run on QVC and that it was selling well anyway (without real ports etc), not that it's totally unavailable Thanks though!
I read some interesting stuff on the net, e.g. using the special capabilities (color, blitter etc).
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Posted By
Chris
on 2006-10-27
19:04:17
| Re: SID cards.
Hiya guys,
Sorry for not being around over the last week or so, looks like I've missed so much.
I will be releasing a full spec of the new SID card this weekend, which should give everyone an idea of specifications, release date and estimated cost for purchase ( there will be a few options available, with sid chips and without). Yes I know its been a long time coming, and we've all being discussing it in various forums. I hope you all approve of the details that will be following soon.
Luca, thanks for jumping in there
Solder, maybe you me and Jurek should have a chat sometime and go through things. To see what you think to the specs? Seeing as you are the inspiration behind everything in our hardware shop.
Chris
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Posted By
indi
on 2006-10-28
08:44:15
| Re: SID cards.
"one thing do you wish is available: "external sRAM-card", up to 1MB, standard is 256kB"
Yeah, this is okay and I could use it to help games, but as I said before.....I prefer having SID music which means I can't have them both in at once.
I think the "ideal" would be an MMC reader, since it could store almost every game on 1 card. Games could make use of it as well - for example, I don't load up code for the front end since it would be too slow from floppy; but with an MMC aware game, this wouldn't be a problem.
I've been thinking about this for the C64, as it already has a MMC reader.... could be interesting. Doing a whole game thats designed to run from one of these!
Once we finish XeO3, I may look at a couple of "custom" ports to these systems as I think they have a lot to offer.
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2006-10-28
09:31:17
| Re: SID cards.
"i think the "ïdeal" would be an MMC reader"
have a look at http://jderogee.tripod.com/ this MMC writer/reader works on a +4 also.
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Posted By
indi
on 2006-10-28
09:41:48
| Re: SID cards.
My understanding was that this was a SERIAL device that pretended to be a disk drive. What I'd like is something that plugs directly into the machine, then transfer is quick, simple and can be done over time if needed (MAP's placed on the card could be read a bit at a time for example).
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Posted By
Solder
on 2006-10-28
15:44:45
| Re: SID cards.
@MikeD,
> Yeah, this is okay and I could use it to help games, but as I said before.....I prefer having SID music which means I can't have them both in at once.
You need the expansionport-expander (3 slots) for the sRAM-card, because it has a grid of 0,1 inch. So you can use it together with the SID-card at the same time.
I tested 2 SID-cards in this configuration with modified GAL for separate adress $fd40 and $fe80 for stereo. But who owns 2 SID-cards???
@Patrick
At the site you give the link I found interesting thing: VHDL description for FPGA to emulate a SID-chip. Because SIDs aren't available this is a good thing (but without filters at the moment). If this will be completed sometimes a SID-compatible (stereo) card could be done with only this one chip. But I would need help with VHDL...
And 1541-III looks very easy to create. Perhaps I should try to buit one. (Or convert to 1551-III ??? Parallel transfer is very fast).
Solder
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Posted By
Luca
on 2006-10-28
15:49:11
| Re: SID cards.
When the SIDcard will come back, despite to all the spaceship-like vapourware I read here, I'll be a happy owner of more than one SIDcard.
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Posted By
BushRat
on 2006-10-29
10:19:56
| Re: SID cards.
Solder,
Related question.. do you remember about how many of each type of SidCard you made? One had the 65xx chip, the other the 85xx chip.
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2006-10-29
10:53:37
| Re: SID cards.
Hey Jim, it's quite offtopic but have you found those disks you mentioned in August, especially the 364 Conversation disk? Would be cool to test it with Yape...
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Posted By
Solder
on 2006-10-29
12:38:29
| Re: SID cards.
@JimH
> do you remember about how many of each type of SidCard you made? One had the 65xx chip, the other the 85xx chip.
All (about 75) cards was with 8580-SID, only one prototype was with 6581-SID. At this time I had problems to create 12V with TL497, because this part of the circuit was from an other project and I hadn't have a datasheet - no internet at this time
Solder
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Posted By
Luca
on 2006-10-29
15:56:33
| Re: SID cards.
[Solder], allow me to couch a direct question: are you thinking about assembling new SIDcard?
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Posted By
BushRat
on 2006-10-29
16:07:37
| Re: SID cards.
Answers that question about the SidCards... I have one of each. Don't remember which one you sent to me ( back in the '90s) the other one I think Peter Hanson sent to me. You must have sent me the later one, come to think of it, because it had that daughter-board attached. Never got around to using that too much. The SidCard part was terrific!
Opps on the 364 stuff... I'm the Bushrat Jim H.... haven't been on here for a long time.
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2006-10-29
16:57:39
| Re: SID cards.
JimH: Yeah I meant exactly you Although I missed the date, it's been August 2005 (!). Gosh, how time flies... See for yourself!
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Posted By
BushRat
on 2006-10-30
02:40:31
| Re: SID cards.
O-k-a-y... will have to check. I archived just about everything in D64/D81 images. I remember I got disgusted with my cluttered shed and hauled floppies and papers to the local Salvation Army, last year. Kept the hardware for parts. Been a lot going on, so I truly don't remember for sure. Wife went in for a "routine" angiogram, the Doctor made a mistake and perforated a major artery in her heart. She was in a coma for 14 days, 38 days total in the cardiac critical care unit. So, we've been working through her recovery. Doesn't leave much time for hobbies. Tough old bird... she had less than a 5 percent chance of survival... did it anyway!
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Posted By
Solder
on 2006-10-30
04:30:32
| Re: SID cards.
Hi Luca!
Short answer: No!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2006-10-30
04:59:47
| Re: SID cards.
Bohooo!
Chris and Jurek, keep the waiting time shorter, you two are our last hope!
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Posted By
Chris
on 2006-10-30
06:50:05
| Re: SID cards.
I posted this on the forum at commodore16.com, but maybe not everyone saw it.
Basic ("guaranteed") specs:
Hardware:
- 2 sid chips driven at 0.88Mhz each (like original sidcard),
- first chip @ fe80 , second @ fd40 (making the card compatible with both one-sid-sidcard versions),
- joy port is not mounted but fd80 is actually decoded for it
- 2.54 raster pins containg all the card + exp. port signals allowing easy and cheap expansion (quick adding the joyport for example) both for hobbyist hackers and us.
Software:
- software allowing to play many 50/60hz C64 tunes will be avaiable (those which reside in memory areas not "disturbing" the 264 series).
- you will be able to use goattracker to make music for this card (it already allows you to change SID baseaddress in music-module it outputs),
- using stereo-sidcard equipped 264 series machine as decent HARDSID substitute (with exception of midi) should also be possible.
Am waiting on a email with regards to the latest progress and ETA of the cards, will post in both forums when I've got it.
Chris
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Posted By
Bionic
on 2006-10-30
10:18:59
| Re: SID cards.
If Jurek still takes design input:
-I was under the impression that 2 Sids will probably draw too much power for the plus/4 PSU, even a single 6581 may be too much. Maybe you should double check that issue?
-How about adding some flashrom with bank switching logic? (eg 512kb or 1 meg?) This would add maybe 3-4€ to the cost, but would allow to store often used software..
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Posted By
Bionic
on 2006-10-30
10:25:28
| Re: SID cards.
Also, my Sid card will have 12 voice polyphonic surround output with tube amplifiers. The SID clocking is PLL controlled with 24 bit accuracy. The reduce noise all inputs are slew rate controlled and the SIDs are individually shielded with silver casings. As a side bonus I included a 20MHz accelerator and 4gig of flash to store all plus/4 software ever made.
The design idea is almost finished. Mass production will start as soon as I find some sweatshop in china to design and produce this for under $20 a piece......
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Posted By
indi
on 2006-10-30
11:28:47
| Re: SID cards.
Don't try and sell them at cost! Make a little on it so its worth you're while!! Folk will buy them anyway as long as the price isn't silly!
The problem with retro hardware is that being sold for either cost or almost cost, people get hacked off doing it over and over. But if you sell it and make a bit, then you probably won't mind so much. $20 is a seriously low price....add $10-$20 so that you don't have top skimp on materials, and so that theres a chance you might still be making them after the inital batch!
And the memory....hell yeah!!
(how about a through port....?)
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Posted By
Solder
on 2006-10-30
13:52:45
| Re: SID cards.
Hello MikeD,
a through port like 1551-paddle? It there anybody who knows a source for the 2x25pin slots with grid 1,98mm???
Solder
@Bionic:
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Posted By
Luca
on 2006-10-30
14:09:54
| Re: SID cards.
Bionic yesterday morning my SIDcard had taken me coffee when I was into my bed
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2006-10-30
16:35:56
| Re: SID cards.
> It there anybody who knows a source for the 2x25pin slots with grid 1,98mm???
Isn't it 2mm (.079")?
In any case, AFAIK, no-one makes any kind of card connector with this contact spacing. Unless someone knows otherwise
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2006-10-30
18:00:53
| Re: SID cards.
As said before... Please take Bionics comments into consideration. He built a prototype of "his" SID card and I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. The information he gathered shouldn't get lost.
Bionic..
Thanks for taking my suggestion (audiophile tube amps) into consideration
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Posted By
Solder
on 2006-10-31
05:19:06
| Re: SID cards.
Hi MikeD,
no the C64 connector isn't the same as plus/4. C64 has 2x22 pins with standard grid 0,1 inch (2,54mm).
I have no infos about plus/4 connector. There are not additional informations in the parts list from commodore for the plus/4.
@Ulysses777: The userport has a grid of 3,96mm, why not the expansionport the half of it: 1,98mm. But I have no informations about the grid. The difference from first to last pin for 25pins 1,98mm to 2,00mm is just a half millimeter... But if the grid is 2,00mm it would not help us. I don't know a source for the connector.
Solder
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Posted By
cousteau
on 2006-10-31
06:04:33
| Re: SID cards.
just my 2 cents for this discussion: i think an ide-port for the plus/4 would be great, other 8-bitters like the c64 and the atari xl/xe take great advantage of harddiscs. but just the hardware isn't all, there should be a nice filesystem for that, too,like SpartaDOS X on the Atari.
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Posted By
Bionic
on 2006-10-31
06:37:25
| Re: SID cards.
I think IDE is overkill. Today flash cards are large and fast enough to handle anything involving a plus/4. The advantage is that they have much simpler interfaces. AFAIK there is some hack on the web to connect a MMC card to the c64 datasette port.
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Posted By
indi
on 2006-10-31
17:02:35
| Re: SID cards.
Yeah, I agree - as cool as having a hard drive dangling from a Plus/4 is, a 2 or 4 gig MMC is just as good, and sooooo much easier. No PSU, tiny, simple to access, and plugs right into the PC so you can add more stuff.
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Posted By
Bionic
on 2006-12-21
17:46:21
| Re: SID cards.
ne update?
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