Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-08-28
05:10:38
|  TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> cassette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Did anybody successfully try this chain? I am trying but without success.  So I am seeking a piece of advice.
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Posted By
George
on 2012-08-15
04:42:50
 | Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
It doesn't work this way. I would like to know myself how its done.
Try some of the software in the Tools menu.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-08-15
06:45:31
 | Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
This was something I always wanted to try...
Wav -> CD Audio disc -> portable CD Player -> in-car headphone jack to tape adapter -> 1531 -> C16/Plus4.
Games on CD as CD Audio. Would be the ultimate back-up and limit the need to ever use the real tapes again once backed up.
I copied some of my tapes many years ago as wav's. They run perfect under emulation and looking back at my old pages they are:
Bongo
Exorcist
Fire Ant
Kikstart
Mayhem
Mercenary
Mercenary 2
Mr Puniverse
Rockman
Space Sweep
Squirm
Don't forget ALL tapes are MONO.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-08-15
07:23:58
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
I also copied tapes to the set of PRG-files. I even fixed bad bits in the raw wav-data manually. However the revese task is not solved.
[MIK] Why do you need C1531 in your chain? Why not to try a direct connection to C16/+4?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-08-15
08:14:07
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
I did think you could if you know how to wire a CD player Direct to the plus/4, however the plus/4 controls the motor of the 1531, pauses when file found, pauses after loading and may pause for a second as it skips from normal kernal loading routine to Turbo.
You would have to sit on the commodore key any way as the plus4 would have no control over a CD player.
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Posted By
Spektro
on 2012-08-15
09:23:41
 | Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Just thinking... A CD player software can pause an internal CD-ROM drive and continue playing through the drive's PATA/SATA interface. Maybe it's possible to use a PC's internal CD-ROM drive as a datasette?
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-08-15
10:51:11
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Is it a problem to fix C= key during loading?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-08-15
16:12:22
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Maybe but the recording volume would have to be perfect on the disc else it will never load just form a CD drive. The reason for a portable CD player is that you have control of the volume to get it right without messing about - if it was to work.
It was a nightmare trying to get the above wav's to work properly because of the volume settings and could be just as bad putting them back on Plus4. I guess you could record the audio straight on to tape from PC, again volume would need to be right for it to work. You may even need a mono tape player to record with?? I have never tried.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-08-27
17:55:57
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
It is not very difficult to make the this data transfer. There are only several minor problems.
1. Bad cables. This can be detected by ears or visually by audio editors (Audacity, for example).
2. Inverted data. Some programs (TAP2WAV, old CTF2WAV) produce inverted data. These data maybe fixed by an audio editor or a simple utility. The first long pulse must look like
-----
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-----
3. Low signal level in data. For example, tap2wav gives only 63% of maximum volume and old ctf2wav only 76% in the produced wav-files. This volume must be maximized.
4. Datasette's head position may not correspond to the cassette recorder's. This maybe fixed by a screwdriver. Try to read tape several times with different head position. I use about 30 degree steps.
It is sad that CBM forgot about possibility to hear datasette sound. This sound gives new dimension the work with datasette. There is a simple mod which allows to get this sound. It was popular at Poland. I used it during 4 years with c+4 and made it again with c16 several days ago. It works perfect. I wrote about this mod at http://plus4world.powweb.com/forum/19152#19175. Sorry I was a bit wrong with pin 3. It requires only 5-10 KOhm register which should be soldered between pin 5 (sound input) of audio/video connector and pin 4 (cassette read). I'd soldered FB8 and FB11 wires at c+4 at 80s. I've soldered FB58 and FB16 wires at c16. Maybe connection to pin 3 of audio/video port will also work but I didn't test it.
I've just updated ctf2wav utility. It has options to invert data but it doesn't invert them by default now. It also has a new option to set the signal level.
I used 30-years old Sanyo two tapes stereo system and MB build-in sound card. I encountered with problems with turbo loaders but the standard format is always accepted by datasette.
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2012-08-27
17:46:07
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
I am happy to hear you had some success. For turbo, try Nova turbo which is a rather gentle one...
I am wondering why the signal inversion matters at all when the 16/+4's "tape in" can only detect rising/falling edges but not levels...? I also encountered this problem earlier (that's why I built the option into YAPE, too).
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-08-27
17:59:22
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
You could create a program to play back the audio of tapes to come out of the plus4 but the sample quality will be poor. 
Just to add.
Novaload turbo is the easiest and safest. Many games recorded with it are guaranteed to load with the tape heads out. Use quick and easy C16 games such as anything from Commodore or Mastertronic who normally used the best tapes any way. Note not all Mastertronic games use Novaload.
Half wav loaders are the worst. Each and every one is different and were always a pain to load on the real hardware. There is no correct way of having the heads in alignment for any of these turbos and even worse the recording gear was not aligned equal on each side of a tape. These will be a nightmare I'm sure to put back on to tape, if it can be done.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-08-27
18:27:23
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
I used C16 Turbo. It worked sometimes. How to use Nova turbo to record? I remember it very well. A lot of my programs at 80s used it. I tried it several times yesterday but couldn't handle it.
BTW the tape sound mod allows to mix TED sound with the tape sound!
[gaia, invertion] The loaders check only one half of the wave period. They only detect the first half and then measure the second.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-08-27
18:20:03
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Perfect copies every time. Not connected in the picture plays the tape, the 1531 end records what ever might be playing.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-08-27
18:31:39
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
What is it exactly? Is there any description? One end is for datasette, is not it? What is the second end? User port?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-08-27
18:58:54
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Sorry, small joke. 
Tape to Tape adapter to make copies of original tapes.
1530 = Play
1531 = Record what 1530 is playing.
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Posted By
Jakec
on 2012-08-28
00:06:43
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
"Don't forget ALL tapes are MONO." , You must be a mono recording on CD. If I understand it.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-08-28
05:00:04
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> cassette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
I could handle this Nova turbo. I've also added several lines to its description. C16 Turbo is a bit friendlier and a bit faster -- it uses 2 bytes loader instead of 256 bytes of Nova turbo.
[MIK] What do you mean by phrase "Half wav loaders are the worst"? Almost all (all?) turbos use 2 frequency, one period of wave means a bit. The standard format uses 3 frequency, it mixes 2 periods to produce one bit. I know only one oddness about turbo loaders. At least one of them (used with Savage Island Part One) uses inverted waves.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-08-28
06:45:24
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> casette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
If you want the correct answer it would be best to ask Minstrel who created MTAP and called the turbo's Half Wav. Only a C16 & Plus4 uses this.
Link: http://markus.brenner.de/
Gaia could maybe tell you more. I guess if your recording with it then there should be no problem as long as you use the same 1531 for play back. If the heads are are a little out then you may have problems loading it.
I think if you were to load a half wav audio recording into a sample editor you would see why it's called Half Wav.
When you have over 300-400 tapes and around 20% use the half wav style of turbo then you may find 10% will load, but 10% will not without adjusting the heads. This is more fault of the manufacturing as the heads were out in the first place.
That means although many of the half wav turbos I recorded using MTAP work there is no promise the heads were 100% aligned to record them on to PC. I had to make sure they would load first on the real hardware and then there was a good chance it would load in Yape.
Also what I'm saying is that you only need the heads out 1% and anything using a half wav turbo will not load or fail to load. I would imagine it was used as an anti copying turbo.
So with half wav turbos not being the best then this could be even worse trying to record them back on to tape.
To be honest I'm not sure what you want to do. In one hand you want to record back on to tape which is a 1980's thing. In the other you talk as if that was something from the 1980's but it sounds like you want to create modern tapes of new software that never were tapes in the first place.
You can't beat Novaload. Speed is not the issue, it's the quality of the turbo that will always load is all that matters. Start with something basic and then try something different. Once you know something works only then can you experiment.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-08-28
09:05:14
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> cassette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Could you give me a link to TAP/WAV/... file with so called Half-wav turbo or to a program to save in this format? Maybe I didn't meet this kind of turbo.
I wanted only to transfer several codes to C16 from PC and I'd made it. This is also some kind of retro feelings and unusual experience. 
Nova turbo didn't show more reliability than C16 Turbo in my several tests. It can handle the bigger programs but C16 Turbo may be slightly improved in that way too.
I've just found many ways to create a better turbo. For example, the header block maybe reduced by several times.
BTW plus4emu is also very good with tapes. It can handle nearly all tape formats.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-08-28
15:21:13
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> cassette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Your C16 Turbo could well be the best. I only talk of the most common and most reliable used of all the commercial turbos as it had a name on the loading screen. The commodore 64 used Novaload a lot and some of the best games used it such as Last Ninja & Ikari Warriors. Ocean Loader I recall uses Novaload... I think.
Some titles off the top of my head that use Half Wav. Of course it's not the name of the turbo, just the image/format once recorded. At first MTAP could not make copies of these games until Marcus found out what the problem was.
Thrust
Winter Events
Summer Events
Task Force
Tom Thumb
Pin Point
Terra Nova
Who Dares Wins II
Many of the Anco/Anirog titles. As your see there are many different Turbo's that record using Half Wav. There are many more, I just can't think at this time of them all. Finders Keepers or Molecule Man maybe. Ikari Warriors could be one. I long forget without checking, but Anco/Anirog most definitely Half Wav.
Edit: Could you not ask some one closer to home to put your stuff on to a disk for you. That would be easier if you have a floppy drive and generally loads quicker too.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-08-28
12:44:55
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> cassette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Thank you! They are the mentioned inverted turbos!
The standard format, Nova turbo, c16 turbo (it is not mine it is from Your Commodore magazine 2/86) use waves that begin with low signal level but inverted turbos waves begin with high level of signal. As I know C64 hardware can't distinguish two parts of the wave period but c16/+4 can. So it requires to save both parts of the wave period for C16/+4. This (with Gaia help) made version 2 of the TAP format. So the title half wav turbo is a bit incorrect.
It is not about my stuff. It is about tests of some of my new software. BTW I plan to release a new version of Test Suite soon. I need the iron very rare. If I needed frequent data transfer then I would make direct old PC - C16 link via PC centronics and C16 cassette ports. The microdriver for PC is very easy. If I needed direct link with modern PC then I would seek something with USB-Centronics interface or Arduino cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arduino). Sorry I'm not completely understand your point. Maybe my English is poor. Sorry if it is so. I only hope it is understandable.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-08-28
15:18:17
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> cassette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Your English is fine and I understand what your saying.
Cool, at least you have some inverted Turbo's to play with. King Size Turbo Tape I think could be one such Turbo that records inverted, I think. I used it many years ago, you can even have loading screens and it uses auto run.
Maybe Arena 3000 is another game but with a strange Turbo. I recall you have to type RUN and only then the Turbo will work before the game loads. 
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Posted By
MMS
on 2012-08-28
19:30:18
 | Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> cassette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
well, i see your point. On the other hand i had similar pla
ns with zx spectrum titles, and soon i realized if i want CD player compatible discs, i should keep standard 44khz,16bit,stereo format. Then become evident how short is the standard 74min lenght of a CD. If you record it in mp3 form, may be still Ok, you have more and more Cd players supporting it. And smart spectrum guys found out,that their TAP format is read by the speccy, if they increase frequency. So they use iPhone to store hundreds of tap in compressed way and audio output to load in seconds
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2012-08-28
20:14:49
 | Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> cassette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Last year I copied a load of games onto cassette for a member on the retro-gamer site.
I used a disk to tape program, but I cannot remember the name. I copied the games from PC onto disk then used the copy program to transfer them onto tape. I remember it was a very quick tapeload speed. Much faster than the usual turbo and novaload.
Now what's that utility called again.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-08-29
02:19:13
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> cassette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Going back to CD quickly. One thing we know for sure, with-out any kind of turbo being used we know that native recordings of 64k take around 30 minutes. Ace +4
I have seen it back in 2000 and know some people do load games in to a ZX Spectrum via CD, but yes an MP3 player would be better if it worked for 264 machines.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2012-08-30
01:03:33
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> cassette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
ok,maybe my message was not precise. There is a crosstool for ZX Spectrum, K7ZX that can create from any TAP file a wav, may reach ~16000bps loading speed, with good sound source like iphone, pc sound card.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2014-03-04
01:25:47
| Re: TAP -> WAV -> PC sound card -> cassette recorder -> datasette -> c16/+4
Sorry the usage of 5 KOhm register at datasette sound mod is dangerous. So it should be 10-15 KOhm. I used 10 KOhm register with c+4 during 4 years.
[EDIT] I've eventually made a photo of my soldering of C16.
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