| Posted By
Litwr
on 2013-03-30
02:02:50
|  The addition to Plus/4 wikipedia article
I've just added a piece of information to this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_Plus/4.
to Plus/4 strengths section:
The Plus/4's serial port uses (like C64's) TTL voltage which is incompatible with RS-232. This requires the voltage converter to use modems or other serial devices of non-Commodore vendors.
This means that, on average, with standard 40x25 screen the Plus/4's CPU runs only about 25% faster than that of the C64. However, it is mentioned 75% faster at screen blank mode. The Plus/4 PAL model may be switched to NTSC mode, this disables screen and sets CPU frequency to 2.22 MHz[5]. So Plus/4 (PAL) is one of the fastest 6502 based computer for the raw calculations. This is true for the programs in machine code but the Plus/4's Basic is a bit slower than C64's. The operations with strings are up to 100% slower. This result is caused by RAM/ROM switching procedures which should be called for every byte of any Basic program. The NTSC's Plus/4 is a about 10% slower than PAL's with standard screen and slightly faster with screen blank.
The Plus/4's TED has several advantages over C64's VIC+SID. All TED registers are available for read and write. TED provides easy way to use 4-bit digital sound.
to Plus/4 weaknesses section:
Plus/4 has no way to attach paddles to it. This causes impossibility to use C64's mouse and makes programs with GUI like GEOS less friendly. There is unfinished project to use standard IBM PC compatible serial mouse[6].
I'm not sure in my English. Please help to improve this article contents.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2013-03-30
03:29:22
 | Re: The addition to Plus/4 wikipedia article
If anyone can offer better then please do. I will not be offended as I would rather it be correct.
Litwr,
I have added the odd letter such as A and the odd word. Towards the end I reworded some of it to make it sound better. Note I know nothing of the serial port so kept it as close to your words as possible.
As for mouse support I felt the term Analog Device should be used rather than saying paddles?
The Plus/4's serial port uses (like C64's) TTL voltage which is incompatible with RS-232. It requires a voltage converter to use modems or other serial devices from non-Commodore vendors.
This means that, on average, with a standard 40x25 screen the Plus/4's CPU runs only about 25% faster than that of the C64. However, it's said that it can be 75% faster at screen blank mode. The Plus/4's PAL model may also be switched to NTSC mode by disabling the screen which sets the CPU frequency to 2.22 MHz[5]. So a Plus/4 (PAL) is one of the fastest 6502 based computers for raw calculations. This is also true for programs in machine code but the Plus/4's Basic is a bit slower than the C64's, the operations with strings are up to 100% slower. This result is caused by RAM/ROM switching procedures which should be called for with every byte of any Basic program. The NTSC model of Plus/4 is a about 10% slower than the PAL model displaying a standard screen but slightly faster with screen blank.
The Plus/4's TED has several advantages over C64's VIC+SID. All TED registers that are available can read and write. TED also proves to be a very effective means when it comes to creating 4-bit digital sound.
to Plus/4 weaknesses section:
The Plus/4 does not support analog devices via the joyports like the C64 mouse making programs with a GUI such as GEOS less friendly to use. However there is an unfinished project that allows the use of a standard IBM PC compatible serial mouse[6].
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Posted By
gc841
on 2013-03-30
06:44:12
| Re: The addition to Plus/4 wikipedia article
Litwr,
This is a good addition to the article. Personally I wouldn't mention the unfinished mouse project, as it is only what might be, but you haven taken the time and effort to write this, so it's your right to choose whether to include it.
The main problem I have with the current Wikipedia article is the 50+ references to C64. This addition would take that to approx. 60. Interestingly, the C64 article only mentions the plus/4 4 times. Even the headline plus/4 paragraph, intended to define what a plus/4 is, is more interested in saying how C64 users derided the plus/4. Shouldn't that be a footnote somewhere, rather than a defining point? Overall, the article assumes that the reader has knowledge of or is interested in the C64. 
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2013-03-30
12:19:28
| Re: The addition to Plus/4 wikipedia article
[MIK] Thank you very much for the help. Slav languages are without articles - so it is uneasy for me to use them .  I use all but one of your corrections. The whole wiki text is
While the Plus/4's CPU could run about 75% faster than the C64's, the computer was still designed with a shared memory architecture, in which screen data resided in main memory. This means that the video chip has to access the memory while it is displaying the picture, in effect slowing down the CPU to less than half its full speed in this screen area. Only during those periods when the video chip is displaying the screen border or putting out the horizontal and vertical retrace signals is the CPU able to run at full speed. This means that, on average, with standard 40x25 screen the Plus/4's CPU runs only about 25% faster than that of the C64. However, it is mentioned 75% faster at screen blank mode.
Should I replace words in bold with yours?
[gc841] Do you know any C+4/C16/C116 user who doesn't know about C64? I'm not author of the article concept. I've only added information to the existed article structure.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2013-03-31
04:20:27
| Re: The addition to Plus/4 wikipedia article
As this is a new sentence we need to remind people what is being talked about I feel because before this you were comparing a Plus/4 with a C64.
However, it is mentioned the Plus/4 can be 75% faster than a C64 when using screen blanking mode.
Does this read better?
gc841,
I agree with you on most points and I have just done it again because it is being talked about in that sentance. ;)
I think speed comparisons are ok with the closest rival, a computer that was the biggest selling machine of all time. Indeed tho it must read as if some one does not know, for the first time. It's hard when people that own a particular machine generally know about it so that makes the info for others to read who might of had a different machine.
There must be other cross references across all the the 8bit machines I would of thought. Amstrad, Atari and Spectrum would be other contenders. :)
The whole C16/Plus4 scene in the eyes of ignorance is always based on lies away and nothing ever changes because it's still the same old people from then that are here now. History has done this which is something not even a wiki page can correct even if it means the truth was staring at them in the face. ;)
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Posted By
gc841
on 2013-03-31
04:15:41
| Re: The addition to Plus/4 wikipedia article
Litwr,
You asked for specific advice, which MIK provided, so maybe my more general point was unwelcome in your thread. From your reply, it is clearer to me now where our difference of opinion is. You think that the article should be aimed at C+4/C16/C116 users, where I think that it should be aimed at anyone (no knowledge of any systems assumed).
MIK,
I agree. Litwr's addition to the article was justified in mentioning C64, more so than many of the other references. I do see the wiki page as a chance to sweep away the old ignorance that you mentioned though.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2013-03-31
04:45:11
| Re: The addition to Plus/4 wikipedia article
[MiK] Thank you again.
[gc841] You are right but it is beyond my possibility to rewrite the whole article.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2013-03-31
06:03:24
| Re: The addition to Plus/4 wikipedia article
Small correction Litwr,
However, as mentioned the Plus/4 can be 75% faster than a C64 when using screen blanking mode.
We have to say "AS" mentioned because at the start of the paragraph it says,
"While the Plus/4's CPU could run about 75% faster than the C64's, the computer was...".
It is ok to say it again as you are talking about screen blanking.
Sorry I missed this, our clocks went forward 1 hour today and I was half a sleep with our dog waking up at the normal time jumping all over me. 
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Posted By
MMS
on 2013-03-31
09:55:02
 | Re: The addition to Plus/4 wikipedia article
nice to have article additions. Generally speaking, the wiki article was biased, but was too short for such a fanatic like me. Though anyone can update wiki, i did not do that yet as i am a little unbiased but discussing the new parts with the forum in advance: wise idea! In fact i did agree with the first version too, ok for me.
OFF i believe the nice gfx abilities not highlighted enough. We have no hw sprites -> our machine strenght is not the action genre, but could be the gfx adventures, card trading games.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2013-03-31
11:38:37
| Re: The addition to Plus/4 wikipedia article
Thanks to all. I've just made two additions. I hope they are the final.
The Plus/4's PAL model may also be switched to NTSC mode by disabling the screen which sets the CPU frequency to 2.22 MHz[5] (this is 115% faster than C64's maximum speed).
All TED registers that are available can read and write. TED may realize the blinking cursor and the characters in the reverse-video mode.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2013-03-31
14:51:38
| Re: The addition to Plus/4 wikipedia article
MMS,
You missed an important genre which is what the C16/Plus4 is best known for out side of the scene and that's early 1980's style arcade shooting games.
Maybe some where on the wiki page Udo Gertz needs a mention for his work on Winter Events winning a gaming version of an oscar for his efforts in 1986. Something to be proud of any way for our systems.
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