| Posted By
Csabo
on 2002-09-09
|  Forum Changes?
I was wondering about making changes to our forum. Looking at the posting statistics, these people are the current "regulars" (people with most messages): Lando, JamesC, Luca, SVS, Attila, MikeD and me. I'm still surprised at Mike's reason to open a new forum. Messages getting lost in the noise? If this was a suggestion so that we should introduce sub-forums, that can be done in one afternoons work. Furthermore, I could even set this up so that we would all have the choice of viewing the forum in the new way (by sub forums or categories), or view all messages like it is now, the old way. We could all choose. Now I'm asking all of you mentioned above to please reply to this topic and let me know if we should do this. Not difficult at all.
But I'm wondering if it's worth our while. You see, I'm (a bit) also part of another community, and that would be DoomWorld. (Don't laugh!  ) Anyway, DoomWorld has it's forums as well, take a look here if you like. For them, I can understand the need for sub-forums or categories. In fact, I never go to "General" because it's usually full of messages I don't care about. I'm only interested in Editing (I have a freeware Doom Editor, you see). However, this community counts 1400~some members!!!
I was thinking, if I have to click 7 times (that is, Mike's new forum has 7 sub forums), then messages would be lost. I mean I'm interested in all topics related to the Plus/4 - whether that's games, emus, programming, whatever. What's the advantage of sub forums for us? So that if I don't want to read the emulator related messages, I wouldn't go into that category ever? Well, now we have the alternative of just not reading a message... And what if someone posts a message in "Emulators" that let's say a certain game doesn't work in XYZ emu. But the real answer would be something that's specific to the game - so regular visitors of the "Games" forum would easily know the answer, but would never read the message?
Another thing is having moderators. What needs to be moderated? On the DoomWorld forums I can see... Things are pretty tight there and for a good reason. If you guys haven't figured it out so far this forum is completely open. You can post HTML, link pictures and include links, whatever. In it's 2,5 year run we never had a problem.
Well, anyway, I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm way off here, and the new forums are the way to go. (I gotta start thinking about adding all those stars under my name!!! ) I'd be the first one to admit: it looks really cool. You can have avatars, private messages, etc. It's all high tech for sure. Although I hated to be called a newbie, I went through the same thing on DoomWorld. Can't we all be just equal? 
Do you all think I should just quit worrying and the two forums can co-exist? Maybe it's good to have a choice. It's just that I'm so stupid with this "let's all unite" idea.
So to sum it up, I'm interested in everyone's opinion about all this. Remember, I sit here day after day waiting for those suggestions to come in. We'll try to accomodate everyone! This is our forum, for us. If you don't like something about it, let us know!
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Posted By
Mike
on 2002-09-09
| My $0.02
Okay.... first sorry.... I don't mean to stand on toes here... 
Theres a few things I don't really like about the current forum. I don't read most of the messages here, since they are to do with game maps, playing x,y,z game, hardware problems etc. The only ones I like to read are emulator ones, ideas, and project things.
The reason for breaking things up is to allow people to sort through the stuff better. I found a message I should have responded to, but didnt because it got lost in the noise..
Also, I like having the messages in the reply section to refrence. I also like having all the bells and whistles for editing. Smilies, Bold, Fonts, Links etc.
The Section/Thread is also very nice. It breaks up things into nice groups - I never read off-topic for example... but here I have no choice...
Its also nice that when a message is replied to, it goes to the top of the heap so you can see its a "new" message
Also, I don't mind the unite or the keep them seprate... but theres a BIG reason to keep them seprate and to have many places.... if you don't grow...your shrinking. And to keep a scene alive, and to attract new people, you have to grow. Getting a one huge site isnt bad when the scene is large, and has lots of other smaller sites.... But when there arent that many sites, it always seems like its the last dying gasp... which isnt true of the Plus4 scene. The more the better.....
To me, this has always seem like a BBS. Just messages listed on a board... and find themyourself. With the "normal" forums that your DOOM one and the one I've got, you have a more profesional feel.
As for modrators. I see a few reasons for them... The first is to keep noise down in a forum. As youve said, this isnt a real problem in this scene. Second is to administrate the forum. Move off-topic stuff into the right place etc. And perhaps most important, generate interest, and messages. If someone likes a topic, hes likely to speak a lot in and about it. Theres not much chance I would speak a lot about Projects for example. But those who love to see new things appear would post news and items in there for others to see.
The current topics are just for starters. Im sure they will get more refined as time goes on. The ones I really want are games,emulator problems, programming. But I know you need a general for say hardware faults/querys, and an off topic for funnies and misc is always a good idea.
I post on lots of forums, and thats not to say I would like just the one set, just as you wouldnt want all DOOM and plus4 message all mixed in.
Im sure I'll think of something else
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Posted By
Mike
on 2002-09-09
| (no topic)
Oh! And another problem... I can't tell if Ive read a message... the "yellow" bits show new messages(sort of), even after Ive read them... And I don't know whats new all the time.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2002-09-09
| Bells and whistles
bold
italic
FONTS
  smileys.
plus4.com Links
You know HTML, right Mike? This is all allowed here, always have been.
As for the rest of the things, almost all that you have mentioned above will be implemented. I'm still surprised you didn't come to us with suggestions (or better yet, volunteer to udpate the PHP code). As far as reading off topic + game related messages? I didn't think there was that many, or it was such a big trouble.
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2002-09-09
| My two/hundredths of a Euro :)
I like Lando's forum because of its simplicity.
On Lando's forum, to see the new messages, I look to the right-hand-most date column and read anything that shows in red. I do this twice a day (morning and evening). If it doesn't apply to me, it doesn't, but if it does I can throw my opinion in. (Like this message!)
On Mike's new forum, presuming that I can get my login straightened out, I would have to click "show last 10 posts", presuming that there were 10 or fewer posts in the last 12 hours. If there were 12 posts, I'll miss two of them unless I go through up to 7 forums and look for them.
*MY* rules regaring topics and threads are simple:
1) If responding to a message, reply under the same thread, instead of a new topic (the exception is if the thread is about to scroll off the first page and my response wouldn't be seen.).
2) Start a new thread if the topic within isn't on the first page, or is directed to someone not involved in the previous thread. (I post to someone's attention for this reason.)
3) If it doesn't run on, plug into, or support the Plus/4 or 16, it doesn't belong here.
4) If English is the unofficial language of the board, I don't post in Latin; I don't read messages in Martian.
What Lando and Csabo have here is one large table with several people conversing at once. I can listen to SVS talking to Lando, for example, and then turn to my side and butt in between Csabo and Mike (hehehe).
What Mike is doing is setting up tables in the same room, but each table has its own discussion. I can move from table to table to hear what is being said, and each particular conversation will be more clear because of less background noise, but I may miss something I wanted to hear at another table.
I think it's a personal choice and both forums can co-exist. But I do ask that people not crosspost between the two, otherwise the unique conversations between Mike's and Lando's forums will be lost.
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2002-09-09
| And another thing......
at one time Lando considered this website (and forum) as secondary to Mike's plus4.org site. Lando started a forum because Mike didn't have one.
If Mike wishes to have his own forum, that's great as it gives a choice. Choice is good. If we only had one word processor, one spreadsheet, and one programming language then Lando's board wouldn't have much to archive. (Remember the Plus/4 isn't meant to be a game machine.)
I started my own website because I didn't want Lando to be liable if I broke US copyright laws, but also because I would have some control over what it held. I didn't use my Plus/4 to play games very much when I used it daily; it was a newsletter editor, a calculator, and a programming tool. So my choices for software will be different than Lando's emphasis on games. If I didn't post Expanded Three-Plus-One, would it be the center of anyone else's site? Doubtful. Does anyone besides me care? Probably not. But if David Johnson or Leonard Tramiel ever want to show their children what an impact their little creation made on the world, my site will hopefully be noticed and thought nicely of.
And isn't that the point of posting in cyberspace?
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2002-09-09
| JamesC
Thanks for your feedback. BTW, this topic does apply to you, since I asked you personally in the first message for your opinion about making those changes.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2002-09-09
 | Embrace of Posting
The new +4ers' pathology is here!
I have a good topic to talk with the other maniacs...well, now?
 ________________Where to send it?_______________
I subscribed the Mike's bb, 'coz I'm very curious about what will happen!
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Posted By
Mike
on 2002-09-09
| (no topic)
Well, I think we should just keep them seprate. Theres always a good reason for more than one. As I said before, it increases the size of the "scene" if nothing else. You have to expand. As to the rest... I was sure I'd mentioned the problems before...but perhaps not...
As long as theres not too much in the way of cross posting, it'll be fine... a ref. to another thread is okay... anymore we should discourage.
I do think its a personal thing too.... many folk like seeing everything at once.. I don't. I can't pick out what's of interest to me. The first thing I would change though Casbo is this reply thing. If you could show all messages in the thread under the reply box, so you have a refrance. I have to open another browser just now to see what was said.
I know you can include the HTML stuff... but Im lazy... and like my click boxes
I can also never remember the right HTML for links and images..
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2002-09-09
| First Change Done
The first change has already been implented. It's what Mike just said in the above post (but Lando has requested this as well a long time ago). Now when you are replying you will see all previous posts, starting with the latest.
Mike, I think you just hit the nail on the head: we have to expand. I agree with that. But not with another forum. With that, I strongly disagree. There is sooooooooooo much missing from the scene, sooooooooo many things that need to be done. I know I will have work for the next few years, easily! Why another forum? We already have one. We can just fix it. Otherwise, it'll be what Luca said: Where do I post now? Do we really need a "Lando's Crowd" and a "Mike's Crowd"? If it's the same bunch of people at both places (discussing the same stuff), what's the point?
My name is "Csabo" (pronounced "chabo"). Coming up: sub forums (or categories). I hope I won't break the code too much...
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2002-09-09
| Categories are added
Sorry if the forum was down for a while, it's all settled now. It wasn't a big change at all. Users can now specify a category for their post when posting a new thread. All I have to add is the capability to let users filter by this new field. However, you will still be able to view all messages just like before.
I hope this will be a helpful feature. Thanks for Mike for the suggestion.
Also, I've added two more shortcuts for smileys:
>:-( will become  (mad) and
:'-( will become (sad).
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2002-09-09
| OK now look here
I don't think I can take all the civility and politeness anymore.
I'd like to see a "reply to this message" (or "add your own @#$% opinion", as the case may be) button at the bottom of the screen when reading a multiple-message thread.
And message posting systems between Csabo and Mike shouldn't be a competition. If Mike's is simpler to use, people will gravitate toward it. If people like Csabo's code, they will stick around here. Lando's site is still the premier database and game download site.
With the attitude in this thread, maybe I should be upset that there are NTSC versions of software here. Should I prohibit linking to my downloads from other sites?
Or is the point to share information, allow downloads from whatever server is working, and have a place to meet if one or another server goes down?
By the reasoning given today, c16.de's forum either shouldn't be up, or should be swamped by everyone who wants their cake seperated into air, sugar, eggs, and flavoring, so that they can avoid whatever they don't want. Yet I don't remember seeing any complaints (or compliments) about that one.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2002-09-10
| Two more changes done
The "Reply to this Topic" button now appears on both the top and bottom of the topic page. Thanks to James C for this suggestion, it does make it easier to reply to long messages.
The second new thing that has just been implemented is the topic order. Now whenever there is a relpy to a topic, or a new topic is posted, it goes to the top of the list. Or in other words, the list is no longer sorted by the Post Date of the original topic, but rather the Post Date of the latest reply. Bottom line: new messages are always on top.
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Posted By
SVS
on 2002-09-10
 | My contribution to this discussion...
1) People, we are not too many, right? Then why have we to split into separate groups? This is not the way to grow, in my opinion.
2) The solution could be: help to grow Lando/Csabo' site, games and scene oriented;
help to grow Mike' site, programming/tech oriented.
3) Csabo is disappointed. I can understand you my friend. In fact he hard worked, and in these hours he's working more. He realized a great SW (and who is able to code, knows how it's difficult!). We *ALL* use his work to talk, to ask help, to obtain info, etc. Nobody has ever thanked him?
4) Well: the question is "what forum", or "how many forum"? I agree with JamesC and his example of the tables. The importantest thing is to miss no message. Swapping from one to the another one is not the solution.
S\_/S
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Posted By
Mike
on 2002-09-10
| (no topic)
These new changes are cool Csabo.... The reply is MUCH better!!
I think the games/tech split is probably right... I tend to read and deal with tech stuff, and ignore(mostly) games stuff.
I know what you mean with software... after all, I was the only plus4 emulator for a while, and even though I was a bit huffy with others using my source to make better emulators, I still help out, because it all "helps"... and in the end, it helps me make better things too...
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Posted By
Noro
on 2002-09-11
| My € .02 also...
This became a really hot discussion, and I think we do not really need to split our so small community and the hard work of the couple of active contributors.
And I also think that most of us read every post (except the hungarian ones ), and so it is very practical to have only one forum to check regularly.
But I agree with SVS and Mike that it might be the right way to have programming/tech forum(s) on Mike's site, and general/news/games/community etc. here.
It would be the natural way as Mike's site is mostly about programming and this is mainly a games/demos/utils/people site, so the forums would be near the relevant content(hopefully growing as fast as until now).
But we definately do not need 2 games forums, 2 general/news forums and 2 programming forums.
I hope this will not break us into separate groups and stop the evolution of the Plus/4 community.
And I have to say a big THANKS
to Csabo and Lando for keeping this site up and growing,
to Mike for Minus4 - and together with Luca/FIRE for finishing Xeo3 some day ,
to Ati for Yape,
to Zsolt for WinEMU,
to James C, S\_/S and all other contributors for keeping the Plus/4 and the community alive
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