| Posted By
Adric22
on 2008-10-15
22:26:52
|  Plus/4 documentary
For those who haven't seen, I've been working on documentaries for the VIC-20 and the C64. See them here:
The C64
Chapter 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJNXGW80U0s
Chapter 2A - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKFGpuzhcbM
Chapter 2B - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyZFHZdEZaY
The VIC-20
Chapter 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV7A_PwXEX0
Chapter 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJoQYgoPgVQ
Chapter 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjlI_NmYVpQ
In each case, I've had people came back and say I should have said this, or included that, shown this game or that game, etc.. Yet, when I posted on comp.sys.cbm several weeks before I started making the videos, nobody responded with any suggestions. So, I thought I'd post here since I'll be making the Plus/4 and C16 documentary as soon as I'm finished with chapter 3 on the C64 documentary. This is even harder for me. Even though I do own a Plus/4 and a C16 I really never spent that much time using them. I know a lot about the hardware and whatnot, but I never spent much time playing games on them. So please give me some suggestions for what the most popular Plus/4 and C16 games were. Thanks.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2008-10-15
23:04:22
| Re: Plus/4 documentary
Most popular games? The answer to that will vary depending on who you ask. The closest thing to a consensus on that topic would be our top list. Just click Top List, then Commercial Games Only. That will give you a list of popular, well made, fun games that's hard to argue with.
I watched the first chapter of the C64 one and it made me wonder about who your target audience is. You keep referencing the VIC-20, but for me personally that says nothing (as my knowledge about that particular machine is almost zero).
Nevertheless, good luck with your project, let us know if you have any more questions about the Plussy.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2008-10-16
04:36:49
 | Re: Plus/4 documentary
My PERSONAL opinion
Personally I prefer those games developped by some real talented people and converted by other people from C64. Most favourite are:
Self written:
TCFS (Battery2, Commando, Flash Gordon, Hexenküche, Raster Runner, Speedball, Wizard of Wor)
Mad (Mesel az Erdo, Invincible (huge sprites), Godzilla, )
LOD: Quadrillion
Converted ones:
Pigmy: Battle Chess, Bard's Tale 3, Borrowed Time, Tass Times, Driller, Elite, Ingrid's back, Tir Na Nog
Csory: Centarury Alliance, Jinxter, Fish,
Muffbusters: Choplifter, Head over Heels, Barbarian, Into Eagles Net, SpyVS Spy3, Racer1,
TGMS: Dizzys, Laser Squads,
(and sorry if I left out someone)
Usually the graphics and music of these games are MUCH more impressive (especially for Youtube) than the very first developped C16 games (a lot of such old games are on the toplist, like Sabouteur, Icicle Works, ).
From the original ones the Arthur Noid, Treasure Island, Mercenary worth to show,
So if you look for these people in Members list, and check their releases with a good emulator like Plus4Emu from IstvanV or Yape, you will have a good feeling what I mean.
Especially music developped a lot, firstly because of SID musics introduced thanks to the realtime converters (like Laser Squad intro, Supremacy intro, some older converters used by Muffbasters in Barbarian, Head Over Heels) and the intro of SID card into Plus/4 makes real SID music a reality (which is in fact really much better than TED, sorry to say...  ( ).
But also the C64 games have generally better graphics because much more people worked on them, so the conversion brought all these efforts to Plus/4. TCFS games are generally excuse, as the graphs are made on plus/4, and the quality of sprites are even higher, than on C64 (as I see).
So, despite the popularity of eg Bongo, Tom Thumb, Super Cobra, they would not be really impressive on Youtube. I would show those ones really using the more Plus/4 colors.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2008-10-16
04:54:54
| Re: Plus/4 documentary
BTW, the Plus/4 demos more actively using the best parts of the Plus/4 than the games. So if you want to have impressive videos, I suggest to review yourself the Top 10 demos/megademos, you can find such effects catch up with C64 demos, som eof them even look better due to more colors (like plasmas, shaded 3D objects).
Like Shade demo, Monopsy, Zenbith oif P., 8 shades, Heartfixer
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Posted By
Adric22
on 2008-10-16
07:55:08
| Re: Plus/4 documentary
>> I watched the first chapter of the C64 one and it made me wonder about
>> who your target audience is. You keep referencing the VIC-20, but for me
>> personally that says nothing
I'm trying to make a series of documentaries and since I started with the VIC-20, each one will describe what is new and what is the same as the machines were introduced. So you'd have to watch the VIC-20 documentary first. I sort of planned them to be watched in order. Actually, when I'm done with the specific machine videos, I'm going to have little chapters that go in between talking about the computer industry in general.
I already looked at some of the top games and downloaded a few. They seem very primitive and I'm sure I've seen plus/4 games that were more advanced. I'll have to keep looking. But when it comes down to it, I want to show what was popular at the time the machine was popular and then maybe fit in a few modern releases too. On the VIC-20 chapter 3, I even showed a modern demo from 2008 to show that there is still active work being done on the machine. I may pick a demo for this as well. Any suggestions on which demo to use?
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Posted By
MMS
on 2008-10-16
15:33:50
| Re: Plus/4 documentary
Yeah, some hints have already given on the Demos.
I think you can already see some of them on Youtube, so maybe do not have too much added value to repeat it.
If you still want to have a demo:
The best if you check the notes next to the Demo, and when it won a competition (rated to be better than C64 demos at the same time), you cannot make a mistake.
For example, Shade demo/Wilds is a good one for video streaming, but as I mentioned, it already have a Youtube version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vOgXf1GnO0
"We are family" on Youtube is a good collection of latest demos, and you can find several ones next to it,, as similar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EqcGMdCbPQ&feature=related
Regarding "primitive games": as you may know, sometimes the most primitive games are the most addictive ones, like Frogger, Wizard of Wor, Tron. If you made an overview based on VIC20 (with all those limitation that computer had), I cannot imagine the plus/4 games should be worse, as frequently they reached the C64 versions level (or equal), while C64 was clearly superior over VIC20. (Plus/4 is even superior to C64 in garphics, except sprites)
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Posted By
MMS
on 2008-10-16
15:51:03
| Re: Plus/4 documentary
WOW! I did not know this feature yet! Thanks!
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Posted By
MIK
on 2008-10-17
04:32:44
 | Re: Plus/4 documentary
Adric22,
You should really cover the Commodore C16 and Commodore Plus/4 at the same time if your going down the path of Commercial Games Only. There are only a very small handful of Commercial games for just a Commodore Plus/4.
If you had a plus/4 then 99.9% of Commdore C16 games worked on the plus/4. In general the games were created to run on both machines.
I felt your C64 selection was based on games you may of played and enjoyed. To me most were primitive other than IK+. 
Some Commercial games I would pick to point you in the right direction.
Icicle Works - Plus4 64k
Video Meanies
Ace +4 - Plus4 64k version (not the commodore C16 16k release!)
Tom Thumb
Pacmania
Big Mac
Trailblazer
Arthur Noid
Mercenary - Plus4 64k
KikStart
Dingbat
Squirm
These are a selection of games I have chosen for a reason. As Commercial games go for our machines these cover the essence of what the machines were about back in the 1980's. In most cases fun arcade style games and there are many of them for our system, some ever better than others that have not been listed but to get a general idea this bunch would make a good starting point.
If you would like some home work to look at then take a peek at "ZZAP! C16" which is found under "Publications". When reading this you must remember that this is based on views of Commodore 64 users and is not a true reflection of the people who owned, enjoyed the C16 & Plus/4 back in the later 1980's.
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Posted By
Adric22
on 2008-10-17
09:11:35
| Re: Plus/4 documentary
Lando, thanks for the ideas. As for my selection of C64 games, you are correct. As I mentioned, I had posted to several forums before making the videos asking for suggestions. But since nobody had seen what I was making, nobody cared to give me any input. Since I had my own C64 I could use my own judgement. But I really needed some good input on the Plus/4 because I did own one but I never had any commercial software for it. Honestly, I used it as more of a terminal than anything else. I had Higgyterm and my 1670 modem and I would use it to call BBSs, leaving my C64 open for other uses. I did some programming for it (although nothing worthy of putting on here) but I never had any commercial games.
Oh.. and yes, I planned to cover the C16 and Plus/4 in a single video since the systems are related.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2008-10-17
09:42:41
| Re: Plus/4 documentary
Ohhhm, Lando, I think the list you gave reflects to the commercial games were available at the mid 80s, but in the late 80s and early 90s the converted games dominated the people's times as games.
Sorry to say, but the games you listed reflects to the low budget the companies spent on Plus/4 releases. they already know, it is not a marketing success at that time...
I still prefer converted and later released ones... At least will not result shameful comments from people meeting first time the Plus/4, expecting this is the maximum this computer can do...
Or the three sections should be:
1) the hardware itself
2) initial releases (commercial games), then
3) the later releases (not commercial, converted, self-written) may match to C64 quality
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Posted By
MIK
on 2008-10-17
18:14:06
| Re: Plus/4 documentary
MMS,
Your right with everything you say, but between 1984-1988 that really was the commercial life of the machine here in the UK. 1988-1989 stuff was being re-released on cheaper lables. 1988 things were drying up, the reason I bought a C64 and later an Amiga 500.
It does not matter if the games were £1.99 or £9.99 because alot of the £1.99 were better than the big name full price releases. There is a mix of everything in that list.
I my self can not offer Winter Events or Summer Events in that list because too me these are 2 of the greatest games that are better than Winter Games & Summer Games on C64 in my eyes, but to some one new who may not put the time in to find out what makes the tick is another thing. I wasn't thinking of selling the machine with the very best, but games that made the C16/plus4 what it was, a taste of the past between those dates.
If Adric22 says he will cover anything and everything from 1984 to 2008 then my list is pointless and no harm done. If we are talking commercial then a list from 1984-1988 is whats needed.
My list will not be perfect in others eyes and its free for all so make your selection. 
I do not disrepect what people have done on the Plus/4 at all and I totally understand the need to show off the plussy at its very best don't get me wrong. Just if its commercial and going by what Adric22 covered with the C64 then another chapter will be needed.
No worrys tho, just some input at the end of the day.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2008-10-18
03:04:17
| Re: Plus/4 documentary
Hi Lando,
I fully get your point. Sorry for the extra letters I wasted on that topic, you are fully right, we should not exclude those games made in the mid 80s, just because the taste (and expectations) were different from the current days... And there were a lot of work behind those titles too.
Yeah, after Crysis and Half-Liife2 it is really hard to see the same games with the same feeling... Certainly Creatures and some other C64 releases (not to speak about demos) also opened peoples eyes, that there are stil unused capabilities...
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