| Posted By
Harry Potter
on 2024-04-05
10:23:46
|  Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
Hi! I'm thinking about getting a 256k Hannes memory expansion for my NTSC Plus4 at my mother's house. I don't think I need one now but may get one in the future. I'm wondering: first, should I even get one? Then, where can I get one? How expensive would it be? Is it easy to install? I live in New York, U.S. BTW, I'm pretty experienced with the software of the computer but not the hardware.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-04-05
16:38:17
 | Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
On the hardware side I am also rather weak, but I am on the software side too LOL.
As you may see, there is a thread about Sukkopera's priceless efforts to realize the solderless Hannes memory expansion. In the thread I see most of our hardware experts share their ideas and concepts to realize this new HW without involving old, and expensive (hard to get) parts.
Without the wish to reduce Sukkopera's future potential customers (actually you can hardly find anyone less focused on profit and incomes than him) currently there is only one place I know you can get this 256KB expansion.
This is the 6502PLUS4 CPU replacement. (in fact: 512KB), It is stated it is Hannes Compatible, but because of the 512KB maybe also Csory compatible. Frankly speaking, I've never tested the 256KB function, just believed it should work 
It is a great way to swap a defective CPU, but you will get an extra 512KB SRAM too (you know I have crazy ideas utilizing this SRAM (can be accessed at almost any speed, and no refresh required) to create an ultra speed CPU, but eh
https://lotharek.pl/productdetail.php?id=257
You just need to swap the CPU with this replacement board, and for the 256KB solder on the motherboard ONE single wire, and remove the two DRAM chips. Well, if they are socketed, you are lucky, otherwise the easiest way to cut them out with a side cutter, though it is a rather rude method.
But nothing to be modified, cut or shortcut in the machine's motherboard (like the traditional 64KB upgrade).
I applied it in my C16, has much more space internally. It will NOT work with the Commodore factory PSU, you need a stronger one, maybe close to 2A power on 9V (or 1.5A if you are able to swap the old ROMs to new, low power consumption EPROMs)
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Posted By
Harry Potter
on 2024-04-05
19:09:27
| Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
I'm looking for an easy upgrade on a Plus4 without all that extra, unnecessary hardware. It's okay, though, as I don't really need this: it would just be fun to have. Thank you, though.
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Posted By
Retroshire
on 2024-04-06
06:30:35
| Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
Perhaps the Sidekick 264 project is a nice thing to examine?
I read in the Github readme:
'and -- until recently without any use case -- a Geo/NeoRAM-compatible memory expansion (registers at $FDE8-$FDEA, memory window at $FE00-$FE7F)'
https://github.com/frntc/Sidekick64
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Posted By
Harry Potter
on 2024-04-06
08:19:14
| Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
Retroshire: I thank you for your info, but I'm looking for a Hannes or Hannes-compatible memory expansion. I checked the link and found that it doesn't emulate Hannes and requires a PI. I don't have a PI. 
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-04-07
07:50:54
| Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
Actually a Geo/NeoRAM would be a nice addon for the 264 platform, at least what I heard from the game programmers. Even as a real hardware.
The Hannes/Csory version changes such a big chunk at once (16KB), it is really hard to keep intact the core of the game.
OFF
At the time I learned about PC's EMS memory (when it had 1MB in the old limit before 286 series), I felt the 16KB segments are pretty small compared to the 640KB RAM, but now I understand why. (the 2KB compared to the 64KB total RAM would be more optimal)
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Posted By
Harry Potter
on 2024-04-07
15:52:35
| Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
MMS: I have some questions: Does WinVice support NeoRAM? If so, can I have a doc on how to use it? I kind of like Hannes' memory because I can easily access 59k of memory at a time from a cc65 program using MemBankP4. It was not too difficult to implement: the start-up code copies some access routines to the beginning of RAM to perform the access, and the main module can call these routines on-demand. Unfortunately, it is limited to just one extra bank. I believe I can fix this with some effort. One last thing, how much memory does NeoRAM support?
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-04-08
14:03:16
| Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
(update I will make the pictures smaller)
So on the C64 the GeoRAM was a real thing. It was available in 512KB size, but as you can see from the name, mainly GEOS was able to utilizer it, as it has no real MMU (Memory Management Unit), so almost the same as Hannes RAM.
GeoRAM had also 16KB blocks, but the big difference you can select 256 byte long chuncks from that.
https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/GeoRAM
The GeoRAM / NeoRAM is emulated via the C64 VICE emulation, and you know it is also NeoRAM too, as >512KB is available
I suppose the GeoRAM / NeoRAM would be a great step forward for the 264.
Right now due to different command registers it is not compatible with Hannes Csory method, -->it has no support on 264.
Though i think NeoRAM could have been made Hannes compatible as it has the same 16KB blocks (could use their own registers, and use the Hannes registers in case the prg is just Hannes compatible). If the program supporets Neoram, then it can select the smaller 256 byte blocks too via the other registers.
As no such thing existr right now, as a RAM expanmsion unit for the 264 series (even the simple 64K RAM upgrade for C16 is questionmarked if possible), there is no RAM expansion emulation is possible.
The funny thing is the cartridge door has the text RAM Expansion, just somehow the developers forgot to provide the signal for the port supporting this .
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Posted By
Harry Potter
on 2024-04-08
19:02:18
| Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
I take it that WinVice xplus4 doesn't support NeoRAM. This brings me back to the initial question: is it worth getting a 256k Hannes RAM expansion for a real Plus4? If so, how do I get one? I live in the U.S.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-04-09
03:32:25
| Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
The actual question is: what makes it "worth" for you?
Is it software? There is currently just a handful of programs that take advantage of it and most are disk copiers. There are also a few demos, a couple of which are Digiblaster demos, so you'd also need a Digiblaster, ReVox or DigiMoooZ (still unreleased) to take advantage of it. The only game that CAN use it is Lykia, but then it also works very well without it.
I partially blame this on the fact that until recently the only way to get this expansion was to physically hand-build it into your own +4 and that was quite cumbersome, having to cut tracks, solder wires and piggyback chips. I have designed my Hannes256/Hannes512 boards to overcome this difficulty so hopefully they can become more common in the future. But I have targeted them at the C16, I have no idea whether they physically fit into the +4 or not...
But let me reiterate one thing: most of my boards are very easy to self-build even for people who have never touched a soldering iron before. This is an explicit design goal of mine, as much as empowering people to build the hardware they need at cost, so I really urge you (and everyone) to buy a (good) soldering iron + some solder and have a go at it. You can get 10 PCBs for $5 so you can afford to screw up up to 9 times  .
(That said, the Hannes256/512 expansions are not the best project to do for a start as they use some SMD components, but those can be assembled at the factory for an affordable price.)
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Posted By
Harry Potter
on 2024-04-09
06:53:12
| Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
It's not necessary, but it may eventually be useful for AdvSkel65, as it supports Hannes memory. I'd better get off of this for now.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-04-09
07:42:40
| Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
This seems to be a common misconception: the tape issue only affects replacements that use a 6510, i.e. the C64 CPU.
That said, do not get that replacement, always prefer open stuff when available, you can see how it's done so you can repair it if it gets broken or even modify it: https://www.freepascal.org/~daniel/8501/. I have tested this and it works really well. Besides Daniel has also done the replacement PLA, he deserves all our support.
(And when open stuff is not available, create something open yourself!  )
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Posted By
MCes
on 2024-04-19
12:24:49
 | Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
@SukkoPera
have you tested the "6502to8501" (not on 1551) with JiffyDOS and/or self speed disk loaders (example:"Metamerism")?
It has some HW simplifications that generate behaviour out of specific, especially into a C16,
It's evident also a bus conflict at starting of a WRITE cycle,
"6502to8501" is better than a 6510 adapter, it can be a starting point....
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-04-19
11:41:23
| Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
@bszggg: Unfortunately I have to admit I had 4 or 5 datasettes in different conditions, and I threw them away at a wrong period of mine. It was 5 of 6 years ago, and I already had the SD1541/II, and I could not imagine the me or anyone else would need a datasette ever again. So, unfrotunately I cannot test it...
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-04-20
11:18:28
| Re: Hannes 256k for Plus4: where to get?
@MCes: I have tested JiffyDOS and some fastloaders, everything seems to be working correctly.
I have NOT tested Metamerism because it doesn't seem to work with SD2IEC and I don't have a real 1541 at the moment.
I am aware about the simplifications in the built-in port (the direction of the pins are hardwired and do not follow what is written at $00, so p0..3 are always outputs and p4..7 are always inputs) but if you look at the C16 schematics it is clear that switching p0...3 to input mode wouldn't make much sense anyway (they are buffered through a 74LS06 which can only act as an output). The same applies to switching p4...7 to output mode, as p4 is connected to the read line coming from the Datassette, p5 is unused (but it can be used with this adapter!) and p6/7 are connected to p0/1 (after the buffer) so there would not be much point in it. Thus I don't think much software messes with $00, if any at all and this simplification sounds reasonable to me. Anyway, it would be possible to implement a fully bidirectional I/O port, the project allows for that and the circuit can be taken from the Monotech CPU replacer (which is another good alternative even though it currently has a few known incompatibilities).
I don't have the knowledge to see the bus conflict you're talking about, but this project is open source, if you think you can improve it feel free to reach out to Daniel, he's always very kind and likes tech talk.
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