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Posted By
Litwr
on 2023-10-26
15:50:42
|  Re: PS/2 mouse on Plus/4
Sounds fantastic! IMHO the lack of mouse was the biggest drawback of the +4. But now we only need some proper software and the support in emulators.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-10-26
18:39:44
 | Re: PS/2 mouse on Plus/4
Great news!
But how can it work? PotX and PotY are not connected on the schematics (#5 and #9 pins) to DB-9, so there are only directions, but no potmeters can provide the info about relative movement, or faster /slower movement of mouse.
Still, it is great to know, that PS/2 mouse can work with Plus/4 in this way
As I see it does not require any special SW on +4, it will behave like a joystick, or an 1350 mouse (which in fact works as a joystick) or an 1351 mouse in 1350 "joystick" mode.
https://www.msx.org/wiki/Commodore_1350
I agree with Litwr about the drawback level of the missing mouse support (next to the non expandable memory  )
BTW I suggest everyone to check out Cool News 4 for a great software sprite cursor and an accelerated mouse emulation on joystick/cursor.
https://plus4world.powweb.com/software/Cool_News_4
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Posted By
Spektro
on 2023-10-26
20:13:25
 | Re: PS/2 mouse on Plus/4
Yes, Plus/4 sees the mouse as a joystick when you activate the PS/2 mouse to 1351 mouse adapter's joystick mode by holding down the right mouse button when the Plus/4 starts.
To test the mouse, I wrote a short Basic program that reads the joystick and moves a character on the screen when you move the mouse. It worked well but you can't detect the speed of the mouse movement. Because of that the character lags behind when you move the mouse fast.
I noticed that a wireless Logitech mouse would also work, if you could activate the joystick mode in time. The problem is that the Logitech's USB receiver doesn't wake up fast enough to send the right mouse button down signal to the PS/2 mouse to 1351 mouse adapter and the adapter remains in the mouse mode.
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2023-10-27
03:03:52
| Re: PS/2 mouse on Plus/4
Litwr wrote: IMHO the lack of mouse was the biggest drawback of the +4.
How so? I think that lack of hardware sprites, lack of good sound capabilities, lack of memory expansion, lack of external DMA capabilities and lazy video circuitry design (falling back to single clock for TED memory accesses) were much-much more severe drawbacks than lack of mouse support which wasn't widespread practically in any 8 bit computer system.
Spektro wrote: It worked well but you can't detect the speed of the mouse movement.
Which is not surprising at all as digital joysticks cannot provide any such information by design.
Spektro also wrote: The problem is that the Logitech's USB receiver doesn't wake up fast enough to send the right mouse button down signal to the PS/2 mouse to 1351 mouse adapter and the adapter remains in the mouse mode.
That could be improved with some not too complicated modification of the adaptor. Put a momentary switch on the VCC or Reset pin of the microcontroller. With that you could power up the system and after establishing the connection with the mouse you could reset the adaptor and have it restart in joystick mode.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2023-10-27
11:19:22
| Re: PS/2 mouse on Plus/4
@gerliczer I can't agree with you. The drawbacks in your list relate to the core design of the +4. IMHO they are quite normal for a very cheap design, which the +4 was. But mouse support could have been added at any time since the beginning. Actually IMHO the serial PC mouse would have been the best choice...
I also can't agree that the lack of a mouse was normal for 8-bit micros. The Apple II used mice massively since the early 80s. The C64 also had a mouse option and this made a lot of software (GEOS, graphic editors, etc) much more useful.
EDIT. IMHO The people who ported GEOS to the +4 should have provided a way to use a mouse.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-10-27
13:34:31
| Re: PS/2 mouse on Plus/4
I think SID card, and the 1351 mouse via the SID card on the same DB9 port is the (expensive) answer. GEOS could also use it, I have the C64 mouse driver package, it should work if they are on the same address (I am not sure they are, but I think BSZ's card is reconfigurable)
That's why I tried to create based on BSZGG's design a cheap and easy solution, anyone can easily do with Max232 IC, but at the time it was relased, the retro mania came in, and the old RS232 PC mouses became rather expensive (not all, but surely not for pennies)
Now 1351 mouse has suimilar price as a PC RS232 mouse 
In fact the resident driver never really worked for me, but maybe it was simply my fault, not BSZGG's.
This is the mouse would fit the best to Plus/4 :-) Cheap, just $200 :-D
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/MTAAAOSwTvlktXTS/s-l1600.jpg
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Posted By
seff
on 2023-10-28
06:11:20
 | Re: PS/2 mouse on Plus/4
@Litwr IMHO the biggest limitation was that the C264 line was conceived with a fragmented memory capacity:
C116 (16), C232 (32), C264 (64) and C364 (64). At that time Sinclair ZX Spectrum kept selling with 48 kB and older models were EASILY upgradable. As a result (as we all know  ) software houses produced software 99% for the common denominator.
1)
Why such fragmentation? This is a question for Michael Tomczyk.
2)
Why not upgradable? The C116 and C16 could have been designed with RAM sockets instead. I know they literally saved every cent. Why wasn't the memory expansion slot designed for RAM expansion? These two questions are for Bil Herd.
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