| Posted By
C=Owl27
on 2020-09-29
22:55:28
 |  364 Voice Rom in Plus4?
Hello Plus4world
Sorry about if this has been addressed before...
Is it possible to replace the 3+1 rom with an eprom burn of the 364 voice chip?
Or is it possible to add it as a cartridge?
I would love to hear any of your thoughts on it.
If it is possible to replace the 3+1 rom,
is it also possible, could it also be replaced with the 264diag rom?
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Posted By
siz
on 2020-09-30
02:06:21
| Re: 364 Voice Rom in Plus4?
You can burn both of them to EPROMs (be sure that you use the -lowrom variant of Diag264). But the V364 has a dedicated voice synthesizer hardware too. Without that the BASIC extensions will be present but it can't speak.
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Posted By
C=Owl27
on 2020-09-30
03:01:51
| Re: 364 Voice Rom in Plus4?
Thank you siz for the information.
If I burn the diag264, and replace the 3+1 rom with it,
would it load up by using the same F1 command?
Or would something else need be edited elsewhere?
I need to replace the onboard software in mine anyways
as it doesn't work at all, in my Plus 4.
-
Small update on my power supplies,
I used an 8 pin din and yanked out all the pins accept for 4 of them.
And this fit perfectly into the Plus 4 power socket.
From there I wired up my two external modern power supplies
for the 5vdc and 9vac.
I also made a proof of concept Plus 4 saver.
I didn't have any protoboards to solder to,
so I made it a sort of floating component cage around the relay.
And I don't presently have a variable power supply to test it,
But the LED is green when I plug 5 volts into it,
and red when I hooked up by large blocky 6volt battery to it.
I guess that is kind of a test.
However I think the I/Cs damage at 5.5 volts?
But too many leads were floating exposed in the air
so I used a over zealous amount of hot glue to insulate everything.
A little overkill but the glue glows in the LEDs.
Now its a magic glue ball saver.
When I get proper prototyping boards I will make another
and show it off.
The next project was an S-video cable.
But I followed the C64 tutorial for it.
DON'T FOLLOW THIS TUTORIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I almost destroyed my precious plus 4.
So in one of the pins on the C64 video socket is an audio input
for the SID chip.
The tutorial believed that it actually causes some distortion to picture,
and they suggest sending that pin to the ground.
And in my example I did just that.
When I plugged it in the picture was scrambled.
After quickly removing the cable I returned to the regular RF modulator.
It too had the same distortion.
But I pushed the reset button and the picture returned to normal.
As normal as it could be on the crappy TV I was using.
Doing some more research it turns out that this pin on the Plus 4
IS ACTUALLY ANOTHER AUDIO OUTPUT!
Not the SID's version of input.
I should have known better since the Plus 4 doesn't have a SID.
Well in attempt two I put a resistor in the chroma and another going to ground for good measure.
Then plugged into the S-video, turned on.
WOW! What a picture. I had never seen such a clearer picture on a Commodore before.
I also made some audio hookups and typed out some programs from the manual.
They sounded great.
Accept the last one called the great music machine.
Or great plus 4 music machine.
There were a couple typos in it.
Never fully got it to work accept for number 9 press.
I vaguely have childhood memories of typing out the same program
and also experiencing the same result..?
The cable also used the 8 pin din,
but they were a circle instead of a horseshoe like the plus 4 has.
No matter, I yanked out the top two pins with needle nose pliers.
Plus 4 does not use them anyways.
Then it fit. I plugged it into a female socket that came with it
in order to keep the pins from migrating while I soldered to them.
Never would I have imagined seeing the Plus 4 which such clear picture.
-
That is too bad about the v364 hardware.
I wonder if somebody has made an expansion for it?
What gave me the idea for replacing the built in software,
I read here on plus 4 world about the supercart,
and how the Plus 4 was an advancement toward hot swapping built in software.
Mine built in software doesn't work,
so why not make it something else?
So far I have found no tutorials for burning plus 4 carts.
(I'd like to make some game cartridges)
I ordered several blank cartridge boards, sockets and some W27C512 chips.
A cheapo burner made of chinesium.
But about the 3+1 I'm hoping the w27c512 is a suitable replacement.
And the same pins and whatnots.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2020-09-30
14:52:00
 | Re: 364 Voice Rom in Plus4?
Hi C=Owl27 !
Thank you for testing the resistor mod for the SVideo output. My Dell Monitor does not accept my C16 as a Svideo source, I tought it is due to sync issues, but turned out to be due to out of standard, too to high (1.0V) signal.
What was(were) the resistor values you used for that great picture? 330 Ohm, as the C64 guys, or more? Frankly speaking I did not make the mod yet, as I should cut "my precious" video cable I bought from UK  as it has rather good shielding I did not want to break it up.
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Posted By
C=Owl27
on 2020-09-30
22:26:13
| Re: 364 Voice Rom in Plus4?
I used the 330 ohm.
But I also used a 330 against the ground connection.
So 2 resisters. The idea came to me from from reading about somebody getting the pinout backwards for the joystick socket.
They said using a resister to ground just to be sure that if the pinout turned out to be reversed a resister would help prevent any damage to the machine
But that tutorial was for the c64.
I figured the same would be true for the 2nd audio out that the plus4 provides.
Mind you, I did start over from scratch and the second audio out I left unsoldered.
I do not think that the c= plus 4 provides stereo,. Otherwise I would have soldered my second audio out wire to it.
Since I was using my original cables, I left them as they were, at the other end, the two audio plugs were already connected there.
Before my fixed version of the cable, the very first smoke test using the bad ground showed a screen full of scrambled characters, not dissimilar to Jan beta's ti80 screen.
Which is why I believed I had shorted something
Even when I went back to the regular rf modular the same distorted characters displayed.
Only after pushing the reset button did everything return to normal.
In the tutorials for the C64 they are combining 2 pins to be sent to ground. One of which is for the SID's input.
But this is very bad for the TED series as it doesn't have this input. It has two audio outputs.
It may very be that the cords being sold on eBay are doing this and may be detrimental to the TED computers.
If somebody has purchased one and is using it please let us know if it is working ok.
Give me a couple days and I'll take some photos of my cable mod and the resulting picture.
When I use the regular forum code for pictures it doesn't work here at plus4world. Maybe I have to be official member.
I will link to pictures then.
I want to show pictures of my whole plus 4 setup but still waiting for my cartridge boards from pcbway to deliver.
Then I can solder a wire to my 1541 emulator.
I also aquired a real 1541 diskdrive but am still waiting for the connecting cable and floppy disk to arrive.
What I really need to learn is the settings for burning a plus4 cartridge chip. The pinout voltages.
Actually have never used an eprom before.
Getting a pickit3.
And hoping I can use the c64 tutorials.
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Posted By
Retroshire
on 2020-10-01
14:48:59
| Re: 364 Voice Rom in Plus4?
According to the pinout of the Plus/4 videoconnector there are not two audio outs, but identically to the C64 8p videoconnector there is an audio in at pin 5 and an audio out at pin 3. Not two audio outs.
Having said this: I also had problems with the Retro Computer Shack cable(Composite+SVHS+audio) on the Plus4. This cable is also produced with the resistor on the CHROMA pin and a grounding of pin 5. His (Ian Priddey) motivation is reducing the audio hum on the SID audio in for C64.
My thesis is this one: the audio in of TED is different than the audio in on SID. The TED audio in does not produce hum and grounding it is giving screen trouble (as it did also in my case, horizontal bars travelling from south to north).
Leaving out the ground-audio bridge is the best option for C16/Plus4 I suppose.
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Posted By
C=Owl27
on 2020-10-01
19:01:11
| Re: 364 Voice Rom in Plus4?
Thank you Retroshire and MMS for your responses
I see retroshire is correct.
I have verified it from other sources.
My confusion about the audio out arises from notes taken by Ray Carlsen...
The video port (8 pin DIN) is nearly the same as the later models of
C-64, and monitors such as the 1702 (separated Y and C) will work with no
modifications. As with the C-64, a standard 5 pin DIN plug will also work
for monitors that accept only composite video and audio. The only
difference in the Plus/4 is -two- audio outputs, whereas the C-64 has an
audio -input- on one of those pins. The unloaded level on the second audio
output line is over 1 volt (PP). The lower level output connects
internally to the RF modulator as in the C-64. The pinout is as follows
(facing rear of computer):
________ Chroma Out
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NC ------8 | 7------ NC
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Audio Out ------5 6 1--- Luminance & Sync Out
(1VPP)
------3 4------ Comp Video Out
2nd Audio Out 2
(.5VPP) \________ Ground
...
However going to this site:
problemkaputt (dot) de / pagezero (dot) htm
It is a different story.
Audio/Video - Female 8pin DIN
1 LUM
2 GND
3 AUDIO OUT
4 COMP
5 EXT AUDIO IN
6 COLOR
7 N.C.
8 C16/C116: 5VDC - PLUS4: N.C.
Thank you for the clarification.
Has anybody here at plus4world burned a game cartridge with an eprom for the TED series computers?
If so could they point me to a tutorial that might be helpful on the matter?
I would greatly appreciate it.
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Posted By
C=Owl27
on 2020-10-02
20:03:14
| Re: 364 Voice Rom in Plus4?
Hello again,
I took some pictures of the video cable I made/making.
i.ibb.co/qNFPMqg/plu4-vid-vable-1.png
It is still unfinished.
I want to glue the connections before heat shrinking it.
I had little heat shrinks around the wires near the pins,
But when the wire heated it melted the shrinks.
So I had to use Electrical tape for temporary insulation.
I unsoldered it several times only to have the shrink melt again
before I could slide it over.
The lesson is to leave more wire and have the shrink further down.
This plug has a 330ohm resister for the chroma line.
It also has another 330ohm resister at the ground.
And is probably not necessary.
Did so in haste as I believed I had sent the wrong pin to ground earlier.
The chroma line most likely needs a resister for it's higher power.
I need to make another cable just to test if Ray Carlsen is correct
that this pin is another audio out,
Or is it as retroshine says, it really is a TED version of audio in.
In either case the diagnosis is the same,
DO not send this pin to ground in a TED computer.
The TV accepts steroe audio connections.
Well I am not sure anymore if TED can produce stereo (most likely not)
but if it has a second audio out then this would be a chance to test the second pin.
It may be a weaker audio out however and redundant.
Instead I connected both audio cables at the other end of the cord,
nearer where it connects to the TV.
i.ibb.co/bdN9D80/plu4-vid-vable-2.jpg
i.ibb.co/xhKFrzG/plu4-vid-vable-3.png
Well, I cannot find any upload image to this forum.
Also find no proper link codes.
I did use the < url >
If my links contain http in it then this forum thinks I am spam,
And I cannot post anything them.
I wish I could display images and links without being told about a spam.
Update:
I have my new cartridge boards and my new pickit3.
Now am ready to either repair my 3+1 or replace it completely with something else.
And to make some cartridges as well.
I have downloaded several Bins,
the only thing I am still waiting on are my sockets and chips.
Does anybody know if it is possible to get cartdige cases for the ted series?
Maybe somebody prints these today?
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Posted By
MMS
on 2020-10-04
15:47:25
| Re: 364 Voice Rom in Plus4?
Dear c=Owl27 & Retroshire,
Thank you for the lot of great information about the Retroshack video cable, I have the same. I will check out how I may modifiy it. I opened the DIN connector beforehand, and I could not see a resistor, but maybe I was not cautious enough.
ON:
The 364 is "legendary" due to it's speech synthesis. On the other hand I have to say, it was a a very expensive (I may say: too expensive) approach.
Worth to try Pigmy's conversion S.A.M+4, as I find a really good experience and close enough to 364's performance.
So what is my message?
Maybe someone could create a CRT file from the program S.A.M.+4 and inserting it into the place of 3+1 ROM (32KB should be enough as I see) would be a similar experience.
UPDATE: I just tried the S.A.M+4, and it does not work for me.
It is strange, as I remember I had it on tape, and worked perfectly with my expanded C16...
S.A.M. VS Magic Voice
Magic Voice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwg8tNybtOg
S.A.M:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zOM_sKOgmc
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