| Posted By
Spector
on 2002-12-27
|  C16 scrolling
Did the C16 have special scrolling capabilities like the C64, or was it like the Spectrum, a very processor intensive job with no hardware to help? When I see "Mission Mars" it looks like it doesn't, but then I see "Tycoon Tex" and it's very smooth, I'm not so sure. So did the C16/Plus4 have anything that made the job of scrolling easier?
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2002-12-27
| TED Scrolling
Scrolling registers are built into the TED of the C16, 116, and Plus/4. The PRG recommends reducing the 40x25 screen to 38x24, then putting your items offscreen and scrolling pixel-by-pixel onto the screen.
I think www.plus4.com has a detailed breakdown of TED on their programming page; if not email me and I can provide a copy from the PRG.
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Posted By
Spector
on 2002-12-28
| Found it
I've just read that little piece on it, thanks for that. As I thought, it did have scrolling. I do believe that if the machine had been hugely popular (which would have been impossible), it could have taken on the C64 with it's sprite handling capabilities. The Spectrum was technically inferior to the plus4 wasn't it, yet it held it's own against the C64 right up to the end. But it had the huge user base stretching back years, and everyone knew exactly how it worked, how to get the most out of it. The Plus4 didn't have that luxury.
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Posted By
Bacon
on 2002-12-28
| I don't want to start a war here, but...
I think you have a slightly too much British perspective on the Spectrum/C64 issue (I guess British. Correct me if I'm wrong). The Spectrum was massively popular in Britain, Spain, Russia (through clones) and a few other countries while it never made much of an impact in many other places. This becomes evident if you do an international search for Spectrum on ebay. Virtually all Spectrums sold there turn out to be either British or Spanish.
I'm not out to bash the Spectrum here. On the contrary, I think its lack of success in many countries was undeserved; it was a great little computer for a very low price.
I guess the reason is it was a British micro, so of course people in Britain bought it. Also, when it was introduced in Britain it had virtually no competition. Considering the troubles Sinclair had trying to keep up with British demands the first year, it probably didn't hit other markets until the C64 (and the VIC-20) already had a firm grip on computer sales.
Of course, this is just me rambling here. Any other thoughts on the subject?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2002-12-28
 | My view
Like all computers back then what ever they were created for they all ended up as games machines. Commodore helped with sells of Plus/4 when they shipped the machine in the UK with 11 games, joysticks and tape deck. Those who were looking at getting their 1st computer (cheap) had it all in a Plus/4. This killed the C16 marked and in the UK the C16 did'nt come with joysticks, tape deck nor a good line up of games. The C16 also sold for £40 pounds more than the Plus/4 package!
But where Commodore had released the C16 this alone had killed the Plus/4 from the start because of of the C16's limited memory size and able to use the same software. A fact that still remains today is people don't upgrade, buy addons for their computers/games machines so most C16's would of been standard 16K. And this is why 99% of the software releases between 1984-1988 were C16/Plus4 or 16k. And I DO call the computer a C16/Plus4 and always will  And thats why my C16/Plus4 ClassiX was named as it was because that is the truth, the real reality of the machines 
I think the C16/Plus4 faired very well in its liife. We got 4 years out of it! Loads of games within that time. But again it was the C16 that killed the Plus/4. Around 1988 we saw the C64 turning in to the home arcade machine which was something you could'nt do with 16k and thats why the C16/Plus4 went to its grave.
I find it funny how people do go on as if the Vic20 was the daddy of the C64. C16/Plus4 out done it in every way
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Posted By
Spector
on 2002-12-28
| and more
Well, Bacon, when I meant that the Spectrum held it's own, I meant in terms of quality of software, as you say it's true that the C64 sold more - the Spectrum was never released for NTSC countries for a start, so the huge North American market was never touched. The reason the Spectrum sold so well in those early days was down to quality of software, which certainly in the early days was superior to the C64's, and even some C64 programmers from the time admit that today. Everyone thought that Christmas 84 would be the C64's year in the UK, as CBM had reduced the price, and the software houses started releasing C64-only games. But it didn't happen, because all the kids had been playing Atic Atac, Sabre Wulf etc at their mates' houses, and wanted more, so they got a Spectrum, and the C64 never caught up (in terms of sales) in the UK. Perhaps we have a similar situation today with the PS2 and the X-BOX - one machine is technically inferior to the other, but had the head start and the games to make it more desireable. If you ask kids today which one they want, then it's PS2 every time.
As for the Plus/4, it seems to be a case of "if only". Maybe a hybrid of the two would have been perfect - the C64's sound and sprite capabilities, coupled with the Plus4's colour and excellent keyboard. Now that would have been something!
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Posted By
Bacon
on 2002-12-28
| About the VIC...
Lando said:
> I find it funny how people do go on as if the Vic20 was the daddy of the C64. C16/Plus4 out done it in every way
Well, it depends on how you see it. The VIC-20 *was* the daddy of the C64 simply because the 64 was an extension of the VIC-20 concept: an affordable color computer with sound and good graphics. Don't forget the timeline here:
VIC-20 : 1981
C64 : 1982
C16/Plus4 : 1984
Of course the C16/Plus4 outdid the VIC. When Commodore designed it they had all the experience gained from designing two generations (even three if you count the PET line) of computers. And the C16 was actually supposed to replace the VIC-20 as the low-end home computer while the Plus/4 would be an alternative to the C64 for the people who wanted an office computer instead of a games machine. Remeber that Commodore always designed their machines with the American market in mind. With the higher American incomes in mind, the C64 was a low-cost alternative to the Apple II and the Tandy Color Computer, while the C16 really was dirt cheap.
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Posted By
Bacon
on 2002-12-28
| About the Spectrum etc.
Spector, I see what you mean. You're probably right. I've only played Spectrum games on emulators (I live in Sweden, where the Spectrum never was a hit) but the few I've tried are indeed very good. I guess the programmers had to squeeze everything possible out of a graphically limited machine.
But the Spectrum was actually released in the US by Timex as the TS 1000, TS1500 and TS 2068 but the C64 already owned the American market by then.
I agree about the hybrid C64/Plus4 idea. That would have been a great machine. But the C16/Plus4 is still a very nice micro.
Still, if you're looking for the ultimate Commodore 8-bit micro I advise you to find a C128. That is one great machine! Mine sits on the desk two feet away from my modern PC. My Plus/4 and VIC-20 gets out of the closet quite often, but the C128 is always there, ready to fire up a game or for a programming session.
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Posted By
Spector
on 2002-12-29
| Regarding the C16/plus4 prices
Lando, you say that the C16 cost £40 more than the plus4. Are you sure about that? I got a C16 18 years ago, the appeal of it being that it was a cheaper, cut-down C64. If the plus4 had been that much cheaper, we would have got that instead, but I don't remember it being at that price. Maybe it was in 1985 that happened, because I had a cousin who got a plus4 the year after me, god knows where it is now, probably in the bin- damn. Apart from that, I never knew anyone who had a plus4, and I alway thought it was price that put people off.
Was it really 99% of games that were 16K? I thought that there were more than that. I still don't understand why Commodore released two machines trying to do the same thing. One is enough.
As far as the Timex machines go, they were very similar yes, but they had huge incompatibility problems - most Spectrum games didn't work on them as far as I know.
How do you people get those smilies to appear on the page?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2002-12-29
| I'm 99% sure :-)
C16 sold for £129.99 or £139.99 here in the UK. Commodore ran a TV commercial for a number of months and for the build up to christmas of the Commodore 16 I would lov to see this again! Video recorders were rare in UK homes at this time so the chances of some one having recorded something on TV with that advert and still having the tape (Beta Max or VHS) is 1 in 10 million i would think 
A computer was top of the wish list. I really wanted a Commodore 64 but the price was I think £299 which was way to high for my Mum and Dad so I looked else where. Seeing the C16 on TV and at the price it was made me want one. It was black, looked cool and also looked like a C64. Of course I did'nt know anything about the computer. Anyways about a month before Xmas we went to Debenhams in Southampton and they had a good line up of computers for sell. The C16 was there and at the same price as seen on TV and like I said it had not tape deck or joysticks. And sitting right next to it was the Plus/4! It was £99 for the machine, 1531, 11 games and 2 joysticks. So my Mum and Dad took the Plus4 home insted. I think at the time I was a little gutted not getting the cool looking C16 as seen on TV, but little did I know until I bouhgt my first game did I know the Plus4 ran the same software as the C16 I may of got a Plus/4 but I was very, very pleased just to have a computer
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Posted By
MIK
on 2002-12-29
| Faces
If you join these letters up they make the following faces:
: - )
; - )
: - P 
: - (
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Posted By
Spector
on 2002-12-29
| That's amazing
I have to blame my brother for that one. He was the one who supposedly knew what he was doing in terms of buying the right machine, but he was quite clearly clueless. He could have got a similar machine with 64K and more games etc for £30 less if he had looked in the right place. What a total moron.
Not that I hate the C16, but the machine seems to have no purpose when something better is out that does the same thing.
Oh, and I remember that advert, the one with the two schoolkids going into the shop and buying the C16, and the guy at the counter giving them the penny change from £130. That's what swung it for us too. The chances are greater than you may think of it surviving - if someone taped a movie back then with adverts, it probably would be on there if the film never got wiped... Wouldn't it be crazy to see that now? It's a pity you couldn't take holidays in time as well as space. Go to the travel agents and book a fortnights holiday at Christmas 1984!
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