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Posted By

craftsman1234
on 2015-11-30
23:17:11
 New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

Over the last few weeks I have been working with Boulderdash on Lemon64 testing out his new switch less JiffyDos for the Vic-20, 64, 128 and DCR. His versions require no soldering or drilling. Just pull out the old chip, plug in the new and connect a clip to an IC and you are done. He has recently gotten the rights to sell JD. It has been fun getting everything working.

This weekend I asked him if it was possible to make one for the c16 so we started a process of seeing if the one for the c64c would work. Long story short it would not directly but after working on it over the weekend and today he was able to come up with a working version for the C16. It is a hacked version for the 64c. It also works in the P4 but the board is too high for the lid to close.

The other switch-less boards for the 64 & 128 use a key held down at turn on to switch modes. On the c16 the only thing needed is the reset button. The button works as a switch between each mode.

I am hoping that he ends up selling this version and stream.

Do you think that there is a market for this?

Posted By

RobertB
on 2015-12-01
00:46:14
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

Hmm, as long as the switchless JD is as reliable as a switched JD...

Have the bugs in the C16/Plus4 version of JD been worked out?

craftsman1234 wrote:

> The other switch-less boards for the 64 & 128 use a key held down at turn on to switch modes.

Which key would that be?

Another concern... when switching the C128 to C64 mode at power up, the user has to hold down the C= key. Does that mean to switch JD on a switchless desiign, the user has to hold down the C= key, the JD swiitchless key, and the power button in order for him to use C64 mode? (I'm not counting the GO64 command.)

> Do you think that there is a market for this?

Well, my NTSC Plus/4 is at Ray Carlsen's for modding, and I was going to install JD into it. I was going to get JD from Jim Brain. Or should I wait for your version? Perhaps it can fit if the Plus/4 shield were removed?

Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

Posted By

siz
on 2015-12-01
02:28:42
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

I'm interested in the switchless JiffyDOS. Do you have pictures of it
How does the switching work exactly? It changes mode for every press of reset or I have to keep reset pressed during power-up to switch?

Posted By

ken
on 2015-12-01
09:43:40
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

hi I am boulderdash on lemon
the board at the moment is a little tall for the P4 and c16 , I have a new board in the works that will fit really nice in the p4
and I do have a work around for the issue for now
as for the way it switches
all my switchless boards refer to (drilling a hole and adding a switch) , I use no drilling and no soldering and no added switch
just plug the board into the socket and hook up 1 or 2 clips
on the c16 and P4 I chose to only use the reset button to switch between the C= kernal or JD
the board defaults on bootup to C= and press the reset and its now JD

Posted By

MMS
on 2015-12-01
12:38:18
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

I am interested in the "easy install + switchless" JD.
I have only P4, so size matters.
I have 1541/II and 1571, both are unmodified (so I need JD for them too, they may come in pairs or separately?)

Posted By

JamesC
on 2015-12-01
19:31:23
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

@Boulderdash -- how will your JD know the difference between "reset to switch into JD" and resets for software lockup (or to gain access to the Monitor for program examination or modification)?

Just because we hit the Reset button does not mean we want to switch JD on or off. If the Plus/4 and 16 had a Restore button (like the 64/128) then the Reset button might be less used, but to be honest I use mine a LOT as I play with various software offerings on this site.

Posted By

ken
on 2015-12-01
20:02:19
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

not sure how to answer that one
I just hacked a switchless board for a 64C to work on the 16/P4 , the issue I have is without the restore line this board will float the second what ever key I used to switch it is not being pressed anymore so I chose the reset button to trigger the switch
so it does not know what you want , it will just see a reset and and switch the kernal
the way it is set it will always be c= kernal if the power switch is used and will only switch if reset is used
maybe if a pic was used or just drill a hole and add a switch , and that I what I am trying to avoid

Posted By

craftsman1234
on 2015-12-01
22:49:02
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

Robert, Not to get to far off the topic but the version for the 128 / DCR uses a combo of the c= key and the CAPS LOCK key depending on which mode you want to switch to.

I can't really comment on if JiffyDos is better or bugs worked out. I got my copy from Retro last year and I am guessing it is the latest version. My c16's(64k) and P/4's are both converted to PAL so I can use more programs that NTSC people might not be able to. It seems that JiffyDOS works with a lot of programs and fails at others. This is regardless of JD being switch-less or not. One of the selling points to me of not wanting to have to be using a switching all the time. A good example of this is Master of Sprites will not load past the main title screens with JD but loads fine after I press the reset switch and load normally. Again though this is the sd2iec version of the game.

My c16 set up connects to a 1581 and sd2iec card so app issues might be related to that as well.

I hope that helps.

MMS JD needs to be purchased for the computer and each drive. It is a combo.

JamesC. I not really sure what you mean but if you give me a program to try I give it a go. Tonight I loaded up Adventures in Time and Saboteur and both games when the reset switch is pressed go back to the title screen as they always have. Some games reset to the boot up screen. This might be a good thing if you need to access the monitor to be able to switch easily between modes. Maybe something as simple as needing the dos wedge in JD briefly. I'm not that familiar with what the 264's do to memory on a reset.




Posted By

RobertB
on 2015-12-02
19:06:38
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

craftsman1234 wrote:

> I can't really comment on if JiffyDos is better or bugs worked out. I got my copy from Retro last year...

As reported by James of cbm264 in 2011 on comp.sys.cbm, here is a list of bugs he discovered in C16/Plus4 JD (possibly the same bugs in VIC-20 JD):

Bug #1: @Q gives "Device Not Present" error if disk drive is not on.
So does @F. I haven't gotten around to all the @ commands yet, but
these two should work even if the drive isn't on, as they disable
JiffyDOS or the JiffyDOS function key definitions -- disk drive
shouldn't matter. (Maurice replied: "The 64 and 128 do this as well.
The way the code is written would take a lot of work to eliminate
this. This is generally not a problem since in most cases, a disk
drive is in use and JiffyDOS is a "Disk Operating System". Personally,
I agree though, that CMD should have accounted for these two commands
when a disk drive is not present.")

Bug #2: Key 6 is "LIST"+CHR$(13), contrary to manual (manual states
key 6 should be left arrow, SAVE).

Bug #3: Function key definitions not disabled during program
execution:
10 SCNCLR
20 KEY
30 GETKEYA$
RUN
PRINT A$
... the JiffyDOS function key definitions are displayed, and pressing
F3 captures an @ in A$. Proper function key disabling should redefine
the function keys to Commodore's default definitions? Manual states on
page 45 under @F: "The JiffyDOS function keys are active only in BASIC
direct mode and are disabled when programs are run...."

Bug #4: C16 program "Leaper" has a multi-part loader like many UK C16
games. (1) A boot file is loaded, which (2) displays a copyright/title
screen as it (3) loads a graphic title screen (some play music), then
(4) the copyright/title screen is displayed again while (5) the actual
game code is loaded. Disk operations occur at steps 1, 2, and 4. The
bug is that the game is corrupted upon final load (at the end of step
5). Either the game doesn't start (hung on copyright screen) or the
graphics are corrupted. (This may go back to the JiffyDOS 255 byte
buffer at the top of memory. A lot of commercial C16 games fool the
Plus/4 into reporting 16K memory (12288 bytes free) even after a soft
reset.)

Bug #5: C16 program "Skyhawk" hangs upon loading its' loader program.
A one-block file shouldn't cause me to hit the reset button after 30
seconds.

Bug #6: Pressing F2 ("/", load from directory listing) will error out
with "?File not found error" apprxomately half the time. It may be due
to the 1541 not through spinning down after displaying the directory
with F3 ("@$"). The 1541's red activity light is left solidly on.
OPEN15,8,15;CLOSE15 from direct mode closes whatever file is being
left open. @ is not turning the red light off when this happens
(because there's no disk drive error to report?).

Bug #7: "ACE" from the same page errors out during its' boot process
as well. It dumps me into the MONITOR with a flashing 1541 light and I
can't get out of MONITOR to read the error channel. I have to hit the
RESET button, which clears the 1541. The only way I can load ACE is to
turn off JIffyDOS at both the computer and the drive. This title has a
disk-directory copy protection, one must type LOAD"ACE",8,1 for it to
boot.

Bug #8: I have a customized "Plus/Extra". It hangs during the boot,
after displaying the first screen (insturctions for a Notepad that
comes up by pressing Commodore-Control), before it loads the selection
menu. Error given is "File not found in line 750". About half the
time, I can type GOTO750 and it will finish loading; the other half of
the time, the 1541's light stays on (not flashing) and goes back to
the "File not found in line 750" error. Once again,
OPEN15,8,15;CLOSE15 turns the red light off on the 1541. If you want a
copy of this one I'll email it to you, as the custom one isn't on my
site.

Bug #9: File copy doesn't work right. I've only attempted to copy the
"Action Pack" as referenced in the last message, and the copy won't
run even if I turn off JiffyDOS on both the Plus/4 and the 1541. It
seems that the copy process is corrupting these ML files.

Bug #10: If I put a file on the destination disk before file copying,
then the first file on "Action Pack" disk isn't copied. The filenames
are different.

Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

Posted By

craftsman1234
on 2015-12-03
00:22:06
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

Robert I'm in the process of testing out the programs mentioned. I'll update more later but several of the games do as described and one loads fine. Just like in the 64 version some things don't work and why a switch was always a part of the kit. Though it seems to be more with the P4 JD.

JamesC I loaded up several programs in used the reset and runstop key to go into the monitor. When done this way it stays in whatever mode the program was loaded in. A reset without the runstop will switch modes. Since the computer was not switched off I could still jump back and forth pulling up the monitor in either mode. The ram was not completely cleared. I used KIKSTART as mentioned in another post for the testing.


Posted By

SVS
on 2015-12-03
06:13:50
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

@RobertB: ref. to Bug #8, have you try with my fixed version of Plus/Extra?
http://plus4world.powweb.com/software/PlusExtra_3Plus1_Bugfixed
Please let me know

Posted By

JamesC
on 2015-12-03
09:11:00
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

@SVS, no I have not tried your bugfixed version. Robert is reposting MY report of Maurice Randall's version. Since this version is not commercially available, I don't think it applies to the current conversation.

Posted By

RobertB
on 2015-12-04
22:54:11
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

JamesC wrote:

> ...MY report of Maurice Randall's version. Since this version is not commercially available...

Isn't Maurice Randall's JD what Retro Innovation's Jim Brain marketing now? Or has Jim Brain made improvements to that JD version? Some clarification would be good.

Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

Posted By

JamesC
on 2015-12-05
09:19:54
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

@Craftsman, thank you for verifying that Boulderdash's version does not interfere with Run/Stop-Reset. But on only pressing Reset, is the machine reset too, or does Reset only toggle JiffyDOS between off and on?

@Robert, I honestly do not know if Jim Brain made any changes, or if Maurice ever fixed his bugs. When JD for the Plus/4 popped up on Brain's store, I was under the presumption that Brain wrote his own port or found someone to port it. I completely missed the blogpost announcing that Maurice finally released his version to Brain.

Regardless, it would be appreciated if you would not repost my posts. If I felt my list of Maurice's bugs was applicable to the current conversation, I would have posted it on my own.

Posted By

RobertB
on 2015-12-06
04:50:05
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

However, I did think it was applicable to this conversation since Craftsman's port of JD is based on the Jim Brain version. That would affect any decision of mine whether to buy Craftsman's version or not.

Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

Posted By

craftsman1234
on 2015-12-07
14:53:45
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

JamesC. If you press just the reset it toggles between the two. It is a reset just as if you normally did it without it switching. I just don't know how much memory is reset while doing this either way. There is a prior post about a PAL program and how to convert it to NTSC. Using that example I was able to switch back and forth with the reset/runstop make changes in either JD or plain and start the program from the monitor. Even without the runstop you can switch back and forth and still go into the monitor and restart the program.

I do not know if Jim B made any changes. I really need to go down to a base system and test the programs that Robert mentioned. I've only ran them from a sd2iec and most work(don"t work) the way Robert commented (JamesC) posts.

I want to make it clear that this is not my project and I have only been helping Ken with the testing of all his versions. Ken has the rights to sell JD. I don't really want to debate if JD is a good choice for the c16. It works well enough for me on most things to make it worth while. Programs that don't I just hit the reset switch and load them the old way. To me this is much better then needing to turn off and on the c16.

This really is not just a switcher for JD to default but could be used for any other OS replacement that the P4 or c16 might have. Same with the 64 & 128 versions.

Posted By

JamesC
on 2015-12-07
19:50:55
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

@Craftsman, the C16 (and Plus/4) work like a small 128. Reset alone resets the machine almost exactly like you powered it off and on again. It only skips the RAM test and other power-on initialization things.

Since Boulderdash ported from the 64 version, I doubt his will have the exact same bugs as Maurice's port (and I only played with the beta, not the official release).

Anyway. One only needs to look at the function keys to see if they're using Maurice's beta. (On a Plus/4, F1 will be replaced by 3-Plus-1 or whatever other internal software is installed.)



Posted By

craftsman1234
on 2015-12-08
01:11:03
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

@JamesC. Boulderdash did not port JD from the 64 version. He is a hardware guy not software.

The hardware / 27c256 EPROM board was modified from the switch-less version that he uses for a 64c to run on a c16.

I am using the exact JD version that was sold on Jim's site. Boulderdash can sell the same version. The image you attached was the exact same output that I have when issuing the KEY command.

Posted By

JamesC
on 2015-12-08
12:51:33
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

@Craftsman, this explains why I'm confused. I thought "hacking the 64 version" (from the first post) meant adapting the code.

I should warn that Maurice's beta fiddles with TED's test bit, which is why JD for these machines is so flaky.

Posted By

craftsman1234
on 2015-12-10
12:26:45
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

Sorry about the confusion. Does anyone have the Maurice version? I'd like to compare the two versions.

Posted By

JamesC
on 2015-12-10
14:39:20
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

Since your function keys match mine, you seem to have Maurice's version. If Jim Brain had fixed any bugs, surely he'd have reprogrammed F1 or F6 to more closely match the 64 version.

Posted By

RobertB
on 2015-12-10
17:55:57
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

SVS wrote:

> have you try with my fixed version of Plus/Extra?
> http://plus4world.powweb.com/software/PlusExtra_3Plus1_Bugfixed

No, I haven't. Thank you for telling me about this.

craftsman1234 wrote:

> Does anyone have the Maurice version?

I have the Maurice's NTSC version.

Merry Christmas,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

Posted By

craftsman1234
on 2015-12-11
23:48:12
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

I was able to get a copy of the Beta version and compare it to the version that Jim sells. The NTSC versions were compared in an editor and they were an exact match.

I was not able to find a Beta PAL verson to compare. Jim's versions have both the PAL and NTSC in the ZIP file.

So it appears the Beta became the final. Regardless for most of what i use the c16 for it works well enough for me.

Posted By

RobertB
on 2015-12-12
03:14:28
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

I believe Francois "Eslapion" Leveille of Montreal, Quebec, Canada has Maurice's PAL version of JD for the C16/Plus4.

Merry Christmas,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

Posted By

ken
on 2015-12-15
22:09:38
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

today I finished up the new (switchless) dual kernal board design that will allow users to select what kernal they want to have by default
and fits nicely in the P4 machines
I should be sending the board order out in a few days
I am also working on a cartridge board for the P4/c16 and would love some input on what people are interested in

Posted By

Ken
on 2017-12-27
20:59:43
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

it was cold and wet out today so I decided to tinker around some more with the switchless JD boards
now all I need to do is order some new boards with a refined layout, so I don't need to do so much jumpering
and I can actually make the board even smaller
here is a pic of 2 , and me playing with parts placements https://www.dropbox.com/s/emn3tvlj1z7bz29/p4jd.JPG?dl=0

Posted By

MMS
on 2017-12-30
15:05:22
 Re: New switchless JiffyDos for the c16

Definitely the JiffyDOS into Plus/4 (PAL) in very good thing, and I am interested. Many thanks for the efforts!

Actually, I think a cartridge board should have something Final Cartridge knows, except a lot of things already known by the Plus/4 by default. (Monitor and extra disk commands).

-Fastloaders (for 1541, 1551, and SD based devices, Bitfire)
-Assembler
-Best DiscCopies (especially 1541<-->SD )
-Compressor/Decompressor
-Maybe a BASIC compiler too (the cracked Austrospeed is a logical one, though I dunno if can run from ROM)
-Maybe a tape turbo too
I do not know, how big is the ROM, but some of the other best tools could be added, if they could be run in this ROM form (Knaecketracker, TEDzakker, etc )

But i am not an expert.



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