Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-09-30
16:09:01
|  c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
see at lemon64 :-)
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Posted By
Krill
on 2012-09-30
20:36:10
| Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
... but in my experience, it's slower than C-64 for normal applications, thanks to 2 badlines per 8 rasterlines and half clock in non-border areas.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-10-01
03:13:58
 | Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
Just tell them if they want to see what a 264 can do then take a look at Metamerism 
Sometimes your see people say the C64 is one of the fastest booting computers of all time, but just the talk of boot time is a bit of a joke when a 264 is almost instantaneous as soon as you power up. That's what I call fast! 
To be honest your always find people that will argue just for the sake of doing so be it right or wrong. Mercenary runs faster if you need another example but there is no escaping the arguments tho. The internet is one big negative any way lol. 
If anyone thinks your having a dig at the C64 then tell them to go jump... We love both and you can't have one without the other. As a preference we are bound to 264, but when you can have both then why not. We are not ignorant and love to see it all, and as always we respect both just as equal. All part of the Commodore family any way and yes I have 4 Commodore 64's in the house, many, many games for it too lol. What my 264 can't do a C64 can and what a C64 can't do a 264 can - best of both. AVIT LaRgE!
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-10-01
00:57:20
| Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
[Krill] C+4 is about 24% faster than C64 for "the normal application" - this is a simple arithmetic (1.15MHz vs 0.93MHz). But C+4 RAM/ROM switching makes it slower for Basic about 10-15%. C+4 maybe up to 100% slower with Basic string operations: a$="abcdefg" is the example of such с+4 Basic slowness.
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Posted By
SVS
on 2012-10-01
04:47:32
 | Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
Yes, but Plus/4 has a more efficient strings garbage-collection than C64. This avoids some unpredictable stops that do happen during C64 Basic exec.
And another point to 8-bits machines score is that modern PCs even if working at 3/4Ghz (that is till 4000 times faster), are not able to run, for example QBasic, at so fast speed. An 1 second elaboration time of QBasic should equal 1 hour to Plus/4 Basic.
Indeed, with respect to clock frequency, I'm sure that CBM Basic is one of fastest environment ever written.
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2012-10-01
05:40:30
| Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
@Krill: Totally agree. It becomes even worse when you think about what "extra-duties" you have when it comes to games - which are in a way the "normal application" for this class of machines: Softsprites eat up most of the cpu-time. And those two badlines are only one side of the medal, the other side is you have to move twice the amount of memory for an entire video-matrix. Last not least the sound: You don't have any volume-envelopes. That means some extra cycles an memory to have something like that too.
So: yes, you have more cycles per frame, but for the "normal application" its not even compensating the features lacking from VIC2
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-10-01
07:31:55
| Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
The sprites also eat c64 CPU cycles -- they may leave less than 60% cycles to CPU. Many very good games (ACE, Saboteur, Mercenary, Grandmaster, ...) didn't use sprites at all. However my post is ONLY about CPU speed not overall system performance. BTW TED has also several hardware advantages over VIC: better digital sound, more colors, hardware reverse, ...
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Posted By
bubis
on 2012-10-01
08:23:58
| Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
Who cares?
I am not coding for +4 because it's faster or better, I am doing it because I love this machine and it is fun!
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Posted By
Krill
on 2012-10-01
19:53:55
| Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
Litwr: I don't want to troll, but better digital sound than VIC? Meaning, sound at all, as VIC(-II) is a video chip, while TED is a bit of everything?
But according to the specs, TED plays 3-bit samples, while SID can play 12-bit samples via its synth features, and 4-bit samples via the volume register.
But as bubis said, it's pretty pointless to compare that stuff, and even existing programs, as 8-bit machines in general have been outdated for decades, and people play around with them because it's fun, which is mainly due to active scenes existing for them.
That said, i have some effect stuff i plan to release for C64, C128 and Plus4 "some" day, using each machine's special capabilities.
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Posted By
Krill
on 2012-10-01
19:57:22
| Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
Litwr: Ah, i just realized you probably meant VIC-20, not C64's VIC-II?
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-10-03
11:59:05
| Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_SID shows that SID digital sound is a trick which may give problems with different hardware. However it works and the modern demos with advanced digital synthesis impressed very much. Sorry I was wrong about it.  However TED may also play 4-bit samples. I've just checked it with c16 iron. I've found that TED produces at least 14 levels of sound volume. Together with faster CPU it makes C+4 digital effects equal to 4-bit C64 sound. I can only add that I never used C64. I had no even a desire to use it. I plainly had no time for something above C/plus4, Amstrad CPC/PCW, Amiga 500, and PC. When I had to choose between C+4 and Amiga (I didn't have time for both) at 1990 I chose C+4.
I remember men who used C+4 for the scientific calculations. They asked me to find a way to speed up C+4. However I could make all research about C+4 speed only more than 20 years later. The results of this research I sent to lemon64. I am a bit proud that C/plus4 proved that it is one of the fastest home computers of 80s. It overperforms even C128, Apple IIc, 8-bit Atari, BBC Micro... I am sure that my results made news for 98% of the readers. However this scientific approach raised emotions which are alien to me. Sorry if it disturbed somebody. I wanted only to show truth.
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Posted By
bubis
on 2012-10-03
14:38:20
| Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
Somewhat related, nice wiki about 8-bit computer colors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_8-bit_computer_hardware_palettes
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Posted By
Krill
on 2012-10-04
18:36:11
| Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
Litwr: Wikipedia is a very bad source for 8-bit demo stuff, people without any clue use to write those articles That 12-bit sample replay method i mentioned got discovered only recently and works with all SID models and revisions.
But then again, whatever the particular technical merits of different platforms, it's the fun that counts in the end.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-10-09
12:20:54
| Re: c/plus4 is the fastest 6502-based computer!
So plus4 with SID card will soon play 16 bits!
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