| Posted By
Thomas
on 2002-08-17
|  Minus4w v2.4 - error in sound of channels 1+2?
Hello everybody,
I'd like to hear (or better said: read  ) your opinion to the newest release of Minus4w.
First, I have to say that the 3rd channel (the "noise" channel) is PERFECT now!  The speech in ACE sounds perfect, the speech intro of Terra Nova sounds perfect, it's really great!
But. Of course there's a "but". I think there's an error in the first two sound channels. It's not too easy to explain. Just run the game "Atlantis" on Minus4w and on WinEMU. If it isn't only me or my computer , you'll hear the difference.
And perhaps you would like to have a look on this pics:
http://www.Thomas-Arens.de/Atlantis.gif (Minus4w)
http://www.Thomas-Arens.de/Atlantis2.gif (WinEMU)
The difference is obvious, isn't it?
*g* Sorry for being a nitpicker, but it really annoys me in some games or self-written programs.
I've already mailed Mike Dailly, but I'd like to know your opinion.
*sigh* I'd really like to melt some of the emulators together. WinEMU and Minus4w are my favourites, but both aren't perfect. Yet.
Greetings,
Lord Voldemort
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2002-08-18
| Sound
Yes, there is a difference. Have you tried YAPE? It plays the tune from Atlantis pretty well, and it was also the first emu to pioneer emulating SID sounds.
I don't mind the nitpicking, but if we're going to talk about emulator shortcomings, in my opinion the sound is secondary. What we need is at least one(!) emu that can run all the disk programs. This would give us access to so many programs that we currently cannot run. I don't care if the square wave channels sound like a broken kazoo, as long as I can play Drol, Karateka, Bard's Tale, Battery I & II, Jerry's Quest, etc...
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Posted By
Thomas
on 2002-08-18
| (no topic)
Yeah, you're of course right. Fortunately, I've already got almost all my favourite games as .prg, so I'm not missing many.
- But I'm not talking about SID sound, I'm talking about the "noise" channel of the Plus/4. I mistook that with SID sound as well in my mail to Mike... somewhat embarrassing. Especially since the "noise" channel isn't new in the newest version of Minus4w...
- Yape? Moment...
...I've just tried the newest version (0.40). I don't mean the SID sound, I mean the noise channel. Well, just try the demo mode of the plus/4 version of "ACE" in Minus4w, and try it again in Yape or WinEMU. Only Minus4w is able to play the speech properly. 
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2002-08-18
| Fav. Games
I'm surprised what you said about having all your favourite games. I sense that this is also the opinion of other non-Hungarian guys as well. Did you actually play with the games I mentioned above? You can also add The Goonies, Hollywood Poker Pro (both from the Muffbusters) or Magic Candle. All extremely cool disk games that don't work on any emu right now (okay, except for Battery One). I don't think you guys even know these games...
That's why so many times when the topic of best C16/Plus4 game ever is discussed, all I hear is Tom Thumb and Trailblazer, etc. Don't misunderstand me, I love those games as well, but to me that represents the "old-school", commercial games. They were great, very enjoyable, and most of them had a great learning curve (which is sadly missing from so many new school games). But there was a whole era of new school games... Totally different look and feel. I mean, Karateka on Plus/4! Now, come on!!! You know what I mean?
Maybe some of have missed this, because all these games were written and played in the German-Hungarian cracker scene. I'm not sure. But bottom line is: if you haven't played these yet, I suggest you download them to a disk through XE-1541 and play'em on a real Plus/4
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Posted By
Thomas
on 2002-08-19
| (no topic)
You're right, I don't know any of these games, not a single one.
You know, I was seven or eight (I think) when my father bought the Plus/4. I hadn't much influence on what games he would buy.
At the moment I don't have much time. But in a few days my Plus/4 will arrive, and in October I might try the games you've mentioned.
- But what about the Minus4w and its sound? Does nobody else want to say something to that?
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Posted By
Mike
on 2002-08-19
| (no topic)
Oi! Csabo! Minus4 dos was the first to do SID emulation!
Yeah.... turbo loading D64 files are a bugger
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2002-08-19
| SID stuff
I should have gotten my facts straight before I spoke, eh? Minus4w rules though, but there's still so much to be done! I know disk emulation is hard, and so is emulating timers (e.g. Digital Brainstorm from MX doesn't run on any of the emus, but only because of timer problems, not because of disk). For Minus4w, we need a cool monitor/debugger, plus saving/loading snapshots of the memory...
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Posted By
mike
on 2002-08-20
| (no topic)
I should have gotten my facts straight before I spoke, eh? Minus4w rules though, but there's still so much to be done! I know disk emulation is hard, and so is emulating timers (e.g. Digital Brainstorm from MX doesn't run on any of the emus, but only because of timer problems, not because of disk). For Minus4w, we need a cool monitor/debugger, plus saving/loading snapshots of the memory...
hehehehe... well... no one really uses Minus4d now so... I guess I can forgive you
Can you put together all the known VERY bad ones that don't work, and send me them?... I don't have half of these...
I have been thinking of restarting (again!)... and doing cycle emulation (like YAPE does). When I started, (P133!) it wasnt really practicle... now though... Minus4 goes at over 400FPS, so perhaps nows a good time
This would allow me to include true drive emulation.... I wish Artifex would hurry up... its ideally suted
Actually... true cycle emulation would solve so many problems for me... I have to fudge so much because I don't step at the same rate as the video...
Altough... My timers should work okay.... Timers are 1/2 the speed of the video dot clock, which I use as a basis. Theres another game that uses this to decode... and it works...
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Posted By
mike
on 2002-08-20
| (no topic)
And just for the record... I figured out why my sound "looks" diff...
I use unsigned samples (this goes WAY back to Minus4 dos days) then I sign extend it.
This causes the sound to look far diff. from other "signed" samples...
If you take an unsigned sample into say sound forge... then save it as a signed sample... it'll look the same as mine does... its still valid... just looks diff....
I may play with doing new "signed" samples... to see if it changes to sound for the better... I don't think so... but you never know... I could also use a better range on my base sample before I dynamically resample it...
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Posted By
Thomas
on 2002-08-21
| (no topic)
Hi Mike!
I didn't know that it is _you_!
I don't have much time at the moment. I've just bought a real Plus/4, and I've connected it to my PC (Hauppauge WinTV and SB Live). I'll soon record some music from games from the real machine, and from Minus4w (by using the -R switch). I'll create some new pics as well to compare the sound, because I think I've still not explained well enough what I mean with the Minus4w's sound not being perfect yet. And I'm curious how a piece of music from the real machine will look like.
Unfortunately, my 1541 hasn't arrived yet, so I can't load anything into the Plus/4 at the moment...
Yeah, the signed/unsigned stuff is one of the things I meant, but I believe that it has no impact on the quality of the sound, so it's a very inferior, rather cosmetic problem. The only "disadvantage" of the unsigned samples is the loud crack when you start or end Minus4w, but that's not really bad.
Greetings,
Lord Voldemort (AKA Thomas Arens ;) )
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Posted By
mike
on 2002-08-22
| (no topic)
No, the "crack" or "pop" inbetween samples isnt the signedness of the samples... When a bit of music alters sound, of it affects the frequ. HIGH register first, then the low, this "may" take some time... I sample at around 2 ticks per scanline... if it takes longer than 1/2 a scanline ,you'll notice a "click"
On TV's the speaker will hid most of this, and Im not sure how quickly the plus4 hardware itself will respond...
The main thing is when a sound is started and stopped... this causes the loudest pop's and again, its how long it takes to reactivate the sound... if its off for more than 1/2 a scanline you;ll notice a pop.
Some smoothing/averageing would probably help/solve this....
The signed/unsigned simple means its only using 1/2 the availabe resolution of samples... but 16 bit samples are quite good anyway
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Posted By
Thomas
on 2002-08-23
| (no topic)
Ah, sorry, but you didn't get what I meant.
When you execute the Minus4w.exe, there is a loud crack. When you close Minus4w.exe, there's again a loud crack. And that's definitely due to the unsigned samples, you can see that in http://www.Thomas-Arens.de/Atlantis.gif . On the very left of the pic, the green line starts at the bottom of the pic, far away from the neutral axis (red line), where it should be. That's 0 (unsigned) = -32768 (signed, 16 bit), while it should be 32768 (unsigned, 16 bit) = 0 (signed).
But this crack isn't really a problem, so never mind.
I'll write something more to the other cracks/pops as soon as my 1541 will have arrived, for I can't load any programs into my Plus/4 without the 1541.
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2002-08-23
| *MY* speakers have a power button....
and therefore aren't even on unless I want to hear something. I turn them off when I'm through.
You might wish to consider doing this yourself until Mike has a chance to review his code.
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Posted By
Thomas
on 2002-08-23
| (no topic)
Hey, as I said: THAT isn't a problem at all! He doesn't need to change that if you ask me! The problem this topic should be about is something completely different.
- But I don't turn off my speakers, 'cause I need them almost all the time. And especially when I'm going to play a Plus/4-game, so running Minus4w with the speakers turned off would be quite strange.
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Posted By
mike
on 2002-08-24
| (no topic)
The clicks/Beeps/whirrs on entry are simply uninitalised sample buffer.... They have been cleaned up... but you still get a muted "click" this seems to be DirectX... since the whole sample buffer is full of 0x8000 and it still does it... I tried making the volume 0, but it doesnt seem to do anything.
Click on Exit is DirectX. if my sample buffer is full of 0x8000 and I used Sample->Stop(); theres not much more I can do... but I get a click as the sample stops... must be DirectX.
OR, theres something I don't know about DX Audio... but I play an empty sample, I start, then stop it... and it clicks....?
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