| Posted By
Bob Clark
on 2009-09-22
10:43:17
|  TV Switch Box
Hi,
I have just come across a plus/4 but it has no switch box.
Everthing else looks ok but without this I am unable to run games.
Can anyone help with the names of goon suppliers.
Many thanks
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2009-09-22
11:18:12
 | Re: TV Switch Box
"TV Switch Box"=RF Modulator?
That is built in (unless someone has desoldered it, which is unlikely), you just need a cord to connect the plus/4 to the TV.
Though, if your TV has a composite in/SCART/s-video in you probably get a much better picture when using a cable that connects to the plus/4's video out.
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-22
13:38:56
| Re: TV Switch Box
He might be looking for a switch box specific to the US... our friends there have different standard for connecting RF equipment together, which is more difficult and error prone to repeated disconnection and connecting than our RF coax plug/connector pairs here. Back then, Commodore used to supply small switch boxes that just needed to be connected once and then you could use a slide switch to select whether you wanted the antenna cable or the computer's signal.
Bob, you have at least three options to connect the Plus/4 to the TV. You can probably obtain a switch box most easily off from eBay (if I'm right). Second, you don't need a switch box (again, if I understood the original question correctly), if you intend to use a TV exclusively for the computer... you need an RF cable which is made for American TV sets (an RCA plug on one end, which connect to the Plus/4, and an "F"-type plug at the other end, which connects to the TV). Any RF cables sold "for Commodore computers" would do that (provided that they're for American TVs), they're similar in this subject. Again, your best source is probably eBay. Third, as Chicken has pointed out, you don't neccessarily need an RF cable if your TV has video input (SCART or RCA sockets)... by obtaining a composite video cable for the Commodore, you can connect everything together and select signal source by using the remote control of the TV. Also, by that method you get reasonably better picture quality on the TV. ...Where else? I'd submit a search at eBay for "commodore scart" or "commodore video cable" or something similar (...but first I'd double check if my TV really had video-in, and the type of the video connector).
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2009-09-22
14:12:52
| Re: TV Switch Box
I didn't know that Commodore supplied those. Back in the days many ppl used something similar here, too  Actually, that was my first guess what Bob was looking for. But then I thought he wouldn't need that just to see if the machine works.
http://test.satmarkt.com/dvbt/TV_DVBT_Schalter.jpg
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Posted By
MMS
on 2009-09-22
15:44:58
 | Re: TV Switch Box
The best video quality from a Commodfore is SVideo. I strongly recommend to use it, and you will see crisp picture without those well known decolorization.
Almost all modern TV sets have SVideo input on the side panel, or via Scart1 (if you have EU TV, but maybe it is not valid for you), but the second one you may have to change in the TV menu (as one pin is common with RGB signals, TVs by default prefer the better RGB signal).
According to my best knowledge, the C64 and Plus/4 AV-out have same pin layout.
I put below few links explaning that conversion (by the way the usually start with an available monitor cable).
http://radagast.bglug.ca/C64_svideo/C64_Svideo.html
You can also buy it (I think it is better if you buy a direct AV-->SVideo, looong cable):
http://amibay.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2448
if the plus/4 has the 8 pin A/V out, then you are there (the C128 and plus/4 developers were almsot the same, and I am not aware of any incompatibility on this part, although they tried to change everything else )
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2009-09-22
15:50:58
| Re: TV Switch Box
Under certain circumstances s-video (separated chroma and luma) might not give the best results. TLC told me about this just recently and I think he will jump in to explain this 
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Posted By
MMS
on 2009-09-22
15:57:19
| Re: TV Switch Box
Well, HDMI is really better
Should we initiate a competition to upgrade our nice computer with HDMI output
(compared to sidcard it is just a piece of cake)
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2009-09-22
16:02:19
| Re: TV Switch Box
Of course I meant S-Video compared to the (usually worse) Composite. Just wait for TLC's expertise
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-23
16:41:36
| Re: TV Switch Box
Thanks, Christian!... O.K. I'll do.
MMS: I haven't suggested S-Video because of two reasons.
1.) There aren't that many TVs out there that support S-Video "out of the box" (and if they do, they can support it in three different ways -- native S-Video socket, RCA sockets or a non-standard extension of SCART)... by that things start getting complicated. For example, if the TV has SCART, you most probably can't just decide (at first sight) whether it supports S-Video at all (...because it's usually an option, which may or may not work on some particular TV). I just wanted to keep things simple, and with that, getting the composite method to work suggested "optimal" investment and gain .
2.) There's unfortunately not that much to be gained by using the separate luma/chroma output as concerning the Plus/4. The luma output of the Plus/4 is pretty noisy. There's plenty of crosstalk between the luma and chroma signals. If your display's resolution is high "enough", you can see that as a grainy artifact over the image. With that, things turn out that separate luma/chroma might not be ultimately preferable; at the very least, it's a decision if you prefer sharp edges with crosstalk or a bit more blurry image with no artifacts... Composite still gives far superior results over RF... so I just didn't think separate luma/chroma was worth dealing with in this case (or if it would have meant a significant gain here over composite).
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-23
17:02:29
| Re: TV Switch Box
MMS... I might be missing something... If you meant one of today's large LCD or TFT flat panels (not a CRT display), then you're right, they usually have more flexible options (they "usually" have S-Video and more than one SCART sockets with at least one supporting S-Video). ...But IMHO they give horrible results with any Commodore equipment so from that on I'd leave the discussion open, it's up to anyone's personal taste whether he wants this or that sort of connection... for me they all look horrible anyway...
I'm wondering if HDMI has some S-Video-alike option. The TED in the Plus/4 generates analog luma and chroma signals directly (...no digital and/or RGB/Component outputs provided that would get transformed into luma and chroma). Unless someone re-designed the whole TED in an FPGA or ASIC (that provided, say, digital RGB), I can't see much possibilities to provide digital video out from the computer... but I may also be missing something.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2009-09-24
09:54:06
| Re: TV Switch Box
Hi TCL,
Thanks for the detailed answer. I have no real HW, but in the past I used the output to connect to out Orion Viking (hunagrian color-TV brand) Video-input. It was pretty nice. I think it was using the CVBS (composite) I suppose.)
I saw some guys reported in USA using their 26" TV with SVideo input with nice picture (with C64), hopefully Plus/4 is not worse that C64 from this aspect, if yes, then we see again a "nice" costdown action in TED... In fact it could be improved in some ways, but for that I need a real hardware, and a consulatition with our expert engineers here.
About SVideo support from TV side:
I am working in a factory producing a LOT of TVs. Since 2007 I cannot tell you a single LCD or Plasma type, which did not have direct SVideo input on the Side panel (we call AV side input), and I am talking about hundreds of types and about few million TV sets... so I can say, -at least for this brand- SVideo input granted, and SVideo support valid for Scart input also. Not a sporadic support. Our latest TVs could do SO much improvement on the incoming analog signal you cannot imagine. Remove graininess, mioire, color troubles.
In fact if you DO not have on the TV this SVideo connector, you may have a workaround via your VCR or DVDRecorder connected to the TV, as a lot of them (we also produced a lot ) had SVideo input on the front you may use for the connection.
HDMI was just a joke you need certain digital video signal for the IC generating this high-speed IIC signal (which is uncompressed transcoded digital signal), and need very accurate timing.
There ARE companies producing external upscalers, like:
http://converter4531.en.china.cn/selling-leads/detail,1070260340,upscale-rcacvbs-to-hdmi-convertersvideo-to-hdmi-converter.html
http://www.bizrate.com/s-video-to-hdmi-converter/
But I do not think it worth the money, especially if the source is crappy.
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Posted By
Jakec
on 2009-09-25
00:49:52
| Re: TV Switch Box
X-BoxHDMI cable can be used in the Plussy?
This:
http://www.pixmania.hu/videojatek-xbox-360-hdmi-kabel/huhu627966_jvart.html
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-25
10:25:25
| Re: TV Switch Box
Jakec: This one looks like some Xbox360 specific accessory (never had an Xbox360 myself, I just met equipments that needed accessories to support some particular interconnection standards... this one looks like one of those cables). I'd doubt if it's suitable for the Plus/4... I'd suggest the Xbox360 has a digital display output of some sort... which is then pretty simple to "convert" further to support HDMI (if any real conversion is needed at all, not just clever cabling). The analog videosignal provided by the TED from the other hand would have to be digitized first to have any chance of playing with HDMI (at all).
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-25
10:42:18
| Re: TV Switch Box
MMS: Okay, then you were really talking about today's flat LCD TVs. ...Yep, these really have S-Video by a high chance.
I know of these digital upscalers and stuff, and yes, they can be relatively enhanced... I just don't like them. IMHO digitizing an analog signal and displaying it on a panel whose raw resolution is in the same magnitude as the analog signal's own bandwidth (but not some multiple of the original signal's clock), is a "Bad Idea" (TM) (and if that won't be enough, I'm also not that fond of today's TVs color reproduction... yeah, plasmas are somewhat better but still...). Until that gets seriously better, I'm using a large CRT TV with no digital trickery (at all). And I'm happy with the vivid colors, no grids, no digital artifacts etc...
About using the Orion -- you've been lucky . Those TVs were IMHO "the" best TVs available (for this task, and anyway) back then. I've only ever met them in my school... they were nice!... I only used my parents' Videoton Super Color TV back then (...and another small black & white Videoton TV in my room, I had no color display myself) that was nice either but lacked the composite video input.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2009-09-28
02:10:39
| Re: TV Switch Box
Hi TLC,
You should check in the shops our new model, 32PFL9604H. (I o not say brand, you will find it)
I have never such color reproduction by any other TV or any other media. I loaded to the USB port my pictures about my boy, etc, and those were the most faithful reproduction of colors I ever seen (I saw the same pictures on TFT LCD monitor, my old TV, own printing on Canon MP1360 and professional labor).
If you are looking for the CRT version of the same picture enhancement technology: we produced few years back some upmarket 4:3 CRT TVs, 29". They have very good picture enhancement technologies, but the picture was still with the CRT technology, and YES, they had SVideo input. Great colors, I really likes it (my father in law still has such a set). Till recent year models, the best colors you can get (I think on the complete market). Because of the original price, not too much sold...
I will check you the type (if you are interested), you may get it on very low price now... (noone interested in CRTs any more)
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-10-01
09:03:00
| Re: TV Switch Box
Thank you for the suggestions. I could find the manufacturer and I'll take a note about the model so I can find and have a look at it when I'm at one of these shops (...I'm curious). Yes, I'm interested about the CRT model, too... I'm not interested (at all) about digital tricks if the subject is a CRT model, but obtaining, or at least having a look at a high-quality CRT tv (whose basic skills, I mean without the digital signal processing part, are supposedly great) looks reasonable. Thanks!
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Posted By
MMS
on 2009-10-01
16:08:24
| Re: TV Switch Box
Why I stress TV to be used for Commodore computers?
Because they have much better and bigger display than the 14" monitors.
The original, good condition 14" Commodore monitors costs ~40-60USD.
With 4x bigger surface you may get for the double price a used great CRT TV.
Just to mention, I have some experience with monitor production also there were some great monitors, like HP L2035, with SVideo input, and great picture.
In CRT the best picture I have seen was PHILIPS 29PT9009. I can tell you, I saw some dozens
My father in law got it from us 6 years ago for Christmas. Still working well. Great pic, the level of those colors just recently reached by LCD TVs.
http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/2/29pt9020_12/29pt9020_12_pss_aen.pdf
Not a single piece on ebay...
I also had a Philips 29PT8609 set, which was not PixelPlus TV (I sold it few years back). It had a very nice picture too, but far from the above mentioned one. Also had SVideo input, I never used that at that time, except when I demonstred the PC picture from my Radeon 8500LE SVideo out. The guy bought it in 5 minutes
Both of the aboves has SVideo native input on the sides.
I still have a 25" TV-Combi with integrated hifi VHS (with not perfectly flat display) from 2001, and I like it very much. VHS still working very well. In fact it was the best VHS drive for all time, not joking, you can see the same picture quality on record as the living PAL signal. At that time from the world's Top10 VHS recorders 8 was from our factory
http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/2/25pv815_07/25pv815_07_pss_eng.pdf
But THIS one does not have SVideo, not even on Scart. Just CVBS.
Still, almost double size than a Commodore monitor.
There were some models had ill-fated issues, like 29PT8620 (had a lot of issues), or the lower end models (like 29PT5xxx), they had much worse tuner, circuitry, and just average picture and sound.
In fact I suggest to NEVER buy a 16:9 CRT TV: after some time they will surely have some geometry problems and color purity issues at the corners. Just coming from the technology...
I hope you find this input detailed enough.
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Posted By
Jakec
on 2009-10-02
07:34:03
| Re: TV Switch Box
It does not go so easily, The cost of $ 200. 
http://www.hdtvsupply.com/svideo-to-hdmi-cable.html
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