| Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2009-09-10
09:27:33
 |  SID-card scheme?
Hi there!
Finally I managed to buy 264. Although I wanted C=116 but at the moment I have C=Plus/4. With a diskdrive.
Hence my question - would anybody be so kind and provide me complete schemes of Sidcard? (if it's possible, at all).
I would be deeply grateful.
Best wishes,
Yerzmyey
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2009-09-10
09:57:41
 | Re: SID-card scheme?
Congrats  Why would one want a C116? Because of the formfactor? Otherwise, you'll be happy with your plus/4, I'm sure.
There's not "THE" SID-Card... there have been various types, some never went beyond prototype stage, though.
Solder's SID-Card was the most popular one here in Germany (also outside Germany, you'll find them in some machines  ). Everything related to his SID-Card can be found on his website. There's also a .gif file of the schematics.
http://solder.dyndns.info/cgi-bin/showdir.pl?dir=files/commodore/plus4/hardware/SID-Card
I don't know much about the SID-Cards that were/are used in Hungary. Some seem to be the same as Solder's (just a different base address).
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-10
12:56:21
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Actually, I don't know of "any" SID-cards that went beyond prototype stage (with the single exception of Solder's one of course).
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Posted By
Luca
on 2009-09-10
14:07:10
 | Re: SID-card scheme?
Any data about the Hungarian SIDcard we show in the hardware page?
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-10
15:01:58
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Haven't seen this one before. The picture suggests this is a re-make of Solder's original card, with slightly different layout, re-designed analog circuitry, lacking the original design's (rarely used) audio signal pass-through and audio out switch possibility. The board seems to be handmade (possibly a prototype?). I don't know how/when this one had been created (I couldn't see the date codes of the chips and the SID's manufacturing code of 1990 doesn't really give any extra info) but it's clearly not an old / independent design (as opposed to Csory's or BSZ's old prototypes). Maybe someone's prototype of a (presumed) new run of SID cards, based on a previously known-to-work solution (Solder's)?...
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Posted By
Luca
on 2009-09-10
16:03:45
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I really would have a picture of a Csory's one...
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2009-09-10
16:33:26
 | Re: SID-card scheme?
hey, just a small test.. please put your hands up if you need a sid card!
(im just thinking about making some - clones of solders great sid card, it makes any sense?!)
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-10
16:40:11
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I've only ever seen that one once, at a party. I don't remember which party it was anymore (I'd have said Szeged party, 1993 first but that one doesn't appear logical). It was brought to the party and introduced by Proky... he might know/remember more details. The card we've been shown had been built on a protoboard (something like this one: http://www.jenmat.com/backside.jpg but obviously with an edge connector at one side) and worked in single clock mode only... so I'd consider that one a prototype. I've never seen a production model from that construction. Proky might know more about that one.
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-10
17:31:07
| Re: SID-card scheme?
There might be some confusion here. Here: Yellow Pages #1 which is dated 1992.08.21 Proky states that Csory's card needed a re-design of the clock divisor, and (which appears more important) by then he actually had a working SID-card provided by Christian Schäffner (Solder). He gives details about the base addresses of both cards ($fd40 and $fe80). He mentions that the card he had needed the CPU clock to be halved ($ff13 bit 1, disable double clock mode) and that the card sometimes misses some voices etc. (which should have actually been a side-effect of the method he's describing later, about how he plays SID tunes on the card... ie. by copying SID register values from the $d400 map frame by frame instead of redirecting the player to the new base address, so it's not some hardware issue, after all). I'm really confused about these new findings... Solder's SID card is known to work well with no extra conditions concerning clocks, and he claims to have had the cards ready by 1992 (as to what month and week that means I don't know... my card is like this one: Solder's SID Card (Older), and it's already not from the first production run as that one had a PAL as address decoder, not a GAL). If Proky really had a card produced by Solder, that must have been an early prototype version. Also, if the date is correct, then I must have met him late 1992, probably in Szeged (I still can't remember if I really did attend that party, but I probably did) else I could have not seen him together with a prototype SID card version. ...But if Proky had a card whose clocking scheme was still in development, and probably a prototype version, and by then Csory had already promised to produce a card whose clocking was correct (and Proky. consequently, didn't have Csory's prototype version), then I must have seen Solder's prototype card, not the one by Csory.
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Posted By
RobertB
on 2009-09-10
17:44:16
| Re: SID-card scheme?
My hand is raised for another SID-card.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2009-09-10
17:47:29
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I attended a party at Nukeman's place in spring 1992 (or maybe early summer, I left in August for the US) to which Solder brought a prototype of his SID-Card (it had lots of red wires on it, if I remember correctly). Many Hungarian sceners like SJP, TCFS and Csory were there, too.
Solder gave his SID-Card to one of them. I think it was Csory who was allowed to take it home.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2009-09-10
18:01:10
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Yes, that SIDcard in the picture is mine, it has been the last one Solder had built up, I used it a lot, especially with SIDwinder V01.23, and it survived to the worst conditions ever. It's somewhat invincible, and I too wanna buy another one
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2009-09-11
04:05:26
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Chicken: I'm a fan of 264 series, however my favourite would be C116, as its design is simply incredible and unique. Of course when I get it (one day, hopefuly) I'll but also memory extention to 64K but I'm used to it (I have also Spectrum 16K and several ZX81 machines ).
>Otherwise, you'll be happy with your plus/4, I'm sure.
-------------
Oh, that's I'm sure about. Although we still try to fix the keyboard (well, people DON'T seel *new* 264, You know , only used ones ), but I'm sure everything will be OK.
>There's also a .gif file of the schematics.
-------------
many thanx for that. I'll forward the site's address to my friend who might be able to make such a device. However I'm already aware about the GIF itself. My friend said that actually the data is incomoplete as there is something like GAL chip and to make the card work the guy would must know GAL's logic. Of course I don't get a word of this but I understand that the GIF itself isn't enough to make a card. However maybe this "GAL-SID.jed" file would solve the problem.
Thx again!
Btw, is it internal device in this case, or external? I don't hide I would prefere external (if the port isn't required for other purposes - like diskdrive or whatever ).
TLC and Luca: To be honest I prefer TED music ("TED Storm is incredible demo, for instance) but so many demos use sidcard that
1) I feel "forced" to get one
2) actually I thought it's pretty popular, considering the number of progs
I got used to such inventions as we have the same situation on Spectrum - 48K can play fine music but it influences other functions so computer can do very few things while playing music or even nothing except the music itself. Therefore appeared AY-interfaces (the sound-chip from 128K) and they can work in interrupts so the problem dissapeared and software was able to develope.
>He gives details about the base addresses of both cards ($fd40 and $fe80).
-------------
Well, I don't hide I don't know any details however I'm hunting the card these all programs are for.
Chronos: if my friend will not be able to make the card then I would be surely interested in Your work. As I said I prefer original sound but there is so significant number of sid-only demos/magazines (also games?) that I cannot stay indifferent, You know.
Also, if all fails, I can also ask Zaxon (powerful Atari electronics 'engineer' however he's inmterested in many oldschool platforms) about the sid-card. Actually some time ago I asked him about AY-interface and delivered him schemes. Shortly after it - this appeared http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk/spectrum/spectrum_sounds.html so maybe there would be some hope?
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-11
04:47:42
| Re: SID-card scheme?
C116 vs. 64K expansion: you'd need to expand the memory internally (a pretty simple hack but requires desoldering chips and modifying the motherboard... something that personally I'd be reluctant to do, knowing how rare this model is), in order to use it together with a SID card (attaching two cardridges to the computer would need a cartridge slot expander which is possible to get/build but you'd need one nevertheless... and there's yet the problem of the relatively weak power supply of the C16/C116 which can barely supply enough current for two cartridges at the same time). Yeah, the machine is sort of unique nevertheless .
I think I had provided some hints as to how to refurbish the keyboard some months ago If someone around you is capable of manufacturing circuit boards, he should probably be capable of disassembling/cleaning/assembling the machine and the keyboard. If everything fails, consider sending me the machine or the keyboard block... I seem to have time nowadays.
Me too, prefer TED music over SID tunes (if I were to listen to SID tunes, I'd play tunes from HVSC, or turn on one of my C64s). Back then, this had not been the case (for one, I had been very happy to finally play SID tunes on my memory expanded C-16... and that had been way before inventing the SID card). Yeah, the point of being the SID card a seemingly semi-standard extension to a 264 series computer today, is somewhat correct.
The schematics pointed to by Chicken (Solder's SID card) are of an external card. Yeah, it incorporates a GAL, whose equations you can find written on the schematics. The SID here works similarly to a C64 SID, just with different base address (the 6502 core has no dedicated address space and opcodes for I/O unlike the Z80; I/O is memory mapped, you can find the SID at $d400 and on in a C64; for technical and historical reasons, the SID card maps the SID to $fd40 and $fe80 in a Plus/4.)
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Posted By
indi
on 2009-09-11
04:53:54
| Re: SID-card scheme?
You know, its the PCB thats the problem. Getting the components and soldering it all is pretty simple. So if someone could make a stack of cards, or get a PCB layout that can just be submitted to a PCB FAB place that would be a big step....
...and the GAL too actually... But they are easy to do if you have a rom blower.
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2009-09-11
05:23:19
| Re: SID-card scheme?
TLC:
>C116 vs. 64K expansion
--------
Oh, I didn't know it's so complicaded in this model, that it would require an assistance of some 'know-how-to-solder' guy. Of course it will not stop me from seeking for this machine, heheh, however I'll keep Your kind statements in mind. If it's still _possible_ to do (even with soldering, changing a power-supply, adding the slot expander) then I will follow the purpose.
>If everything fails, consider sending me the machine or the keyboard block... I seem to
>have time nowadays.
----------------
That's most kind of You. If my friend fails with the fixing - I will go back here. But hopefuly I will not bother You.
>it incorporates a GAL, whose equations you can find written on the schematics.
------------
I forwarded Your info to my friend.
indi:
Thanx for the infos, man. At the moment my friend said he *might* be able to make the device. We will see.
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-11
06:14:01
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Yerzmyey: I'd say the full picture (concerning the C116 vs. expansions) would probably look similar to a case where you'd use more than one external cartridges at the same time with a stock 48K Spectrum.
In fact, expanding the ram internally doesn't result in significant rise in power consumption (partly, because the old 16K ram chips are removed in this process, so you won't power any extra chips as a result). A C116 expanded internally to 64K can drive a SID card without any further conditions (no new power supply unit is needed). ...From the other hand, powering more external cards, like an external 64K memory expansion together with a SID card should result in high heat dissipation inside the computer (as also known from the Spectrum) and occassional drop-outs of supply current if the datassette is used (which is powered by the computer alas the single power supply... unlike cassette decks used together with the Spectrum).
...Thinking it over, this all still doesn't look like any real restriction for you as you already have a Plus/4 (way more robust than the C-116 and has 64K already -- no problems to use a SID card with) and you prefer TED tunes anyway so you can use the '116 together with an external expansion module :D . But if you'll really want a C-116, 64K memory and a SID card together, that must be possible to do, too.
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2009-09-11
07:18:30
| Re: SID-card scheme?
TLC:
>I'd say the full picture (concerning the C116 vs. expansions) would probably look similar
>to a case where you'd use more than one external cartridges at the same time with a
>stock 48K Spectrum.
--------------
Oh, actually we don't have such problems because we can link any (well, most of) interfaces in modular way.
This is an example of standard 3 modules for 48K:
http://8bitcollective.com/items/images/divIDE-Kempston_with_joypad-AY_interface-Spectrum_48K.jpg
however somewhere I had a picture with 4 modules (it was Spectrum16K, so the additional module was 32K RAM-pack ). And it still works OK.
>But if you'll really want a C-116, 64K memory and a SID card together, that must be
>possible to do, too
----------
And this is a good news - however this discussion is only theoretical because getting C=116 in my country is very near to impossible, heh.
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2009-09-11
08:11:06
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Im on a little "vacation" now (at Visegrad and yes there is internet connection hehe), so if i get at my home again (sunday) i'll post detailed photos of my sid card's front and back (synergy one)...
tlc: tell me about the "GAL" its the first time as i heard it..
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-11
08:27:40
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Yerzmyey: Jeese... :D (I'm wondering how all these cartridges could have been powered by the poor 7805 voltage regulator inside the Spectrum... :O ). _That_ must have dissipate a _lot_ of heat, unless powered somehow externally (or by individual voltage regulators that draw power from the Spectrums 9V AC raw voltage output).
As you will notice, cartridges haven't nearly been that popular in the 264 world as they seem to have been in the Spectrum world. I could only ever see one single cartridge port splitter interface, and no pass-through type cartridges, except for Commodore's own interface cartridge for the CBM 1551 drive.
The C-116 -- well, it's not that popular here (Hungary) either. I obtained mine off from eBay, too (it was a German auction).
Chronos:
Your cartridge's pictures seem to have been uploaded here: Solder's SID card (Older). GALs are interesting species best known of... well, no... GALs are programmable logic chips, you can read about them (PAL/GAL) here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmable_Array_Logic. On the SID card, it's the small chip near the cartridge's edge connector providing the address decoding logic for the SID.
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2009-09-11
09:31:09
| Re: SID-card scheme?
TLC:
>Jeese... :D (I'm wondering how all these cartridges could have been powered by the
>poor 7805 voltage regulator inside the Spectrum... :O ).
--------
I dunno, I'm not a hardware guy. It worx normally.
>_That_ must have dissipate a
>_lot_ of heat,
------------
Actually not more than usually (also a lot, but we don't care ).
>unless powered somehow externally (or by individual voltage regulators
>that draw power from the Spectrums 9V AC raw voltage output).
----------
No, they don't have external power. Even the flash-card drive. (The last one).
>The C-116 -- well, it's not that popular here (Hungary) either. I obtained mine off from
>eBay, too (it was a German auction).
-------------
I will be trying day by day.
And for now - the Plus/4 is on.
Going back to the topic; I think this weekend I'll write to Zaxon about the sid-card. We will see / hear what he tells us. Who knows, maybe he'll agree.
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2009-09-11
11:16:56
| Re: SID-card scheme?
i put a hand up for a sid card!
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2009-09-11
12:28:28
| Re: SID-card scheme?
ok, well, yes thats my card i posted it once to luca some time ago.. so you got the score..
ok i will consult my father (hw guru) to clone my card and i'll take your help in this GAL (:D) question..
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2009-09-11
12:33:37
| Re: SID-card scheme?
my first question: how can i program the GAL, read the existing content and write it to another?
the others seems to be not a big problem (for now hehe)
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Posted By
TLC
on 2009-09-11
15:10:29
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Unfortunately, I've never used GALs myself so I can't really comment  . As for reading it out: you don't need that, Solder has provided both the equations and a Jedec file so one can just take a 16V8 GAL chip and program it... provided that he already has the technology to do so, that is...
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2009-09-15
09:34:38
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I've sent the letter to Zaxon right now.
We will see what he thinks about it.
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Posted By
indi
on 2009-09-15
12:43:44
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Yep, you can read the old GAL and use that to program new ones.
Or you can use a GAL assembler and make a new one I guess... I did have the GAL file lying around as I did that to see what it was like.
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Posted By
Pepax
on 2010-08-25
10:40:14
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Hi!
Is there any chance the SIDcard will be be available for sale in the near future? I'm really interested because I finally managed to fix my Plus/4, (at long last; hooray!!!) so I basically NEED a SIDcard now.
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2010-08-25
10:54:06
| Re: SID-card scheme?
join the club!!!
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Posted By
Pepax
on 2010-08-26
03:50:21
| Re: SID-card scheme?
So we are waiting for Godot here?
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Posted By
indi
on 2010-08-26
15:53:20
| Re: SID-card scheme?
You can use a ROM reader/writer to read the old GAL can program it onto the new one. It would be great to get some PCB's made... I always wanted to clone it and add an SD slot + ROM. Oh well.... one day.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-08-26
16:25:51
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I've seen so many Sidcard-reloading projects starting and reaching nowhere I can't keep counting...
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Posted By
Csio
on 2010-08-26
16:37:27
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Did you remember BSZ + Hifi Sidcard?
Today i contacted with BSZ and he told we have got odds a lot, he can help!
yyyeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!
Anyway this card i think better than the solder's one, because it using a full-sid timeclock 985khz which means much original musicfeelings.
But the question is: how can we get about 50 pieces of sidchips?
Can i paste the hungarian reply, and can anybody translate it?
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2010-08-26
21:20:24
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Sure, I'll be happy to translate.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-08-26
21:49:22
| Re: SID-card scheme?
OT: omg how much I miss a BSZ new piece of code, he's so skilled! 
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Posted By
Bionic
on 2010-08-27
17:03:26
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I can throw my sid-card rebooted project into the mix as well:
http://www.digital-circuits.org/sid/
It used a C64 clock chip and had a flash-rom to store software. I still have a box with parts to build another prototype. Probably I posted about it before a couple of years ago. Of course, the chance of this happening is close to nil.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2010-08-28
08:36:06
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Levélváltás Csio/BSZ közt:
----------------------------------------
Csio vagyok, Árok partyn találkoztunk egyszer úgy 3 éve. Azé molesztállak, mert haldoklik itt a tábor a Sid kártya után, és látom, hogy ti is barkácsoltatok ilyet. Lehetne újra ezt művelni? Vevők lennénk rá, dögivel! Várjuk válaszod a scene nevében.
Üdv.: Csio
----------------------------------------
Az lehet... De az arcmemoriamnal csak a nevmemoriam rosszabb... De ez ne zavarjon! Valoban csinaltam egy ilyet, ill. tudok egy utanepitett darabrol. Ugyhogy ismeros a tema...
Hat az az igazsag, hogy ebbol szeriat mi nem gyartottunk. Ami keszult, az nem eppen kicsi (kb. ket tenyernyi meretu... ) de legalabb mukodik... De azt szeriaban gyartani nem latom ertelmet.
Na, ez a "dogivel" a jo kerdes. Az kb. mennyi? Mert -most ugy ha vegiggondolom- ugy kb. 20-25 db. alatt nem eri meg nyakot gyartatni. (Ezt hazi keszitesben en meg nem csinalom, az tuti, abbol mar kinottem... ) A masik problema meg maga a SID csip; azt honnan lehetne beszerezni? ("Szetbombazol" C64-et? De ennyit?)
Hat a valasz: en nem vagyok semmi jonak az elrontoja... Ki kellene deriteni az igenyeket. Mert volt ugye az a SID-kartya, amit a "Solder's SIDcard" nevet viseli, ebbol "szaladgal" tobb darab:
"http://plus4world.powweb.com/hardware/Solders_SID_Card"
Ebben a kartyaban a SID orajele a Plus/4 egyszeres orajele, ami ~886KHz. (A SID ugyebar ebbol az orabol osztja le az osszes belso dolgat, tehat ha beirsz valamit a freq regiszterbe, az ebbol osztodik le.) Amit en csinaltam, ott az volt a lenyeg, hogy a SID orajele megegyezett a C64-ben levovel, ami ~985KHz. Ez ugye azert jo, mert a rengeteg C64-rol hozott zene (kb) ugyanugy szolt, mint az eredeti gepben. Cserebe nem lehetett olvasni a SID regisztereit (Nincs is sok olvashato, a zenek nem hasznaljak, legalabbis a nagy atlag biztosan (99% tuti) nem. Az olvashatok kozott van viszont a ket analog bemenet.), viszont oda lehetett allitani a baziscimet, ahova akartam. (Praktikusan $D400, az eredeti TED-es hang kikapcsolva, oszt' szol a regi demo alatt a SID zene. )
Tehat mit kellene tudni az eszkoznek? Mivel ugyis ujra kellene tervezni az egeszet, tulajdonkeppen lehet otletelni. (Ha most csinalnam a sajatot, akkor esetleg kapcsolhato lenne rajta az orajel, ill. a $D400-as cimen valo iras engedelyezheto lenne, a baziscim teljesen szabadon allithatosaganak nincs ertelme. Persze az "elterjedt" $FD40-es baziscimen alapbol elerheto lenne. A regiszterek olvashatosagaval viszont gondban vagyok, az a kapcsolhato orajel miatt nem trivialis, leginkabb nem megoldhato... ) Szoval otlet?
Udv: BSZ
----------------------------------------
Tsókolom!
A Sid chipet sztem mindenki megoldja magának, az nem lehet gond. Nekem is van már egy kb. 2,5 éve, direkt erre a célra. Apropó, a fényképeken úgy láttam, hogy 6581-es sid van a kártyátokban- ez most mit jelent, mert amivel találkoztam Solder újabb fajta az 8581es
volt. A másik kérdésem, hogy a Solder féle kártyák nem nagyon kezelgették azokat a szűrőket, amik $d418 felett voltak. Nem emlékszem pontosan, de asszem $d41e, $d41f. Ez miért volt, vagy miért nem? Ezt hidd el, hogy megérné sorozatban gyártani. Ha nézed a plus4world forumját, láthatod, hogy lengyelek, csehek, németek, meg mink is magyarok
epekedve várjuk, hogy legyen. Az nem érdekes, hogy mennyiért, de legyen. Nem eszik a család 1 hétig, kibirja, de legyen, mert utána már SOHA NEM LESZ. Mindenki le fog perkálni érte simán 10 rugót, még sid chip nélkül is, úgyhogy csak hekkejjéé!!!! És szerintem mindenki majd a 985kHzre fog szavazni, bár nem tudom igazán mi a hátránya, ha nem tudjuk olvasni a sid regisztereket, hiszen a jelen állapotban is valahogy így vannak, mert $fe80-$fe98ig hiába próbáltam ezt tenni.... De ezt nem tudom, mit jelent, nem használtam még őket: "Az olvashatok kozott van viszont a ket analog bemenet is" Kell ez a zene lejátszásához? Vagy csak a paddlek, meg joyok használják? Szóval a labda fel lett dobva és elég ígéretes
Nah, szerintem hajtsunk rá
Üdv, szép estét
Csio
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Mail exchange between Csio/BSZ:
----------------------------------------
I'm Csio, we once met on Arok about 3 years ago. I'm bugging you because the scene is pining after a SID card, and I see that you guys made one as well. Could this be done again? There would be heaps of customers for it! Awaiting your answer, in the name of the scene.
Bye: Csio
----------------------------------------
Maybe... But the only thing worse than my face memory is my name memory... But don't let that bother you! It's true that I made one, and I also know of a second "after built" piece. So I'm familiar with the topic...
Well, the truth is, we didn't made produce it. The one that was made, is not exactly small (about the size of two palms... ) but at least it works... But I don't think it makes sense to mass produce that one.
Well, this "heaps of customers" is a good question. How much roughly? Because - now that I'm thinking through it - it's not worth building less than 20/25 printed circuits. (I wouldn't do this at home for sure, I'm grown out of that... ). The second problem is the SID chip itself, where can we get them? ("Blow up" a C64? But this many?)
So the answer: "I won't the one to ruin a good thing (Hungarian idiom)"... We should find out the needs. Because there was a SID card called "Solder's SIDcard", there are quite a few piece of this one in existence:
"http://plus4world.powweb.com/hardware/Solders_SID_Card"
In this card the SID's clock speed is the 1x clock speed of the Plus/4 which is about 886KHz. (The SID uses this clock for all of its internal things, so if you write something into the frequency register, it will be divided out of this one.) In mine, the important thing was, the SID's clock speed was equal to the C64's, which is about 985Khz. This is good, because most of the tunes converted from C64 sounded (mostly) the same as on the original. In exchange, you couldn't read the SID registers (most of them aren't readable, the music's don't do this anyway, well most of them don't (99% for sure). Though among the readable ones there are two analog inputs.), however, you could set the base address to anywhere you wanted. (In practice, to $D400, the original TED sound was off and you can hear SID tunes under the old demos. )
So what should this device be able to do? Since we have to redesign the whole thing, we can come up with ideas. (If I were to build mine now, I'd make the clock speed adjustable, and writing to $D400 would be allowed, since making the base address completely flexible doesn't make sense. Of course through the "hidden" $FD40 address it would be accessible by default. However, I'm in trouble with making the reading registers possible, the adjustable clock speed makes this non-trivial, mostly impossible... ) So ideas?
Bye: BSZ
----------------------------------------
Hi!
I think everyone should solve the SID chip problem for themselves, that shouldn't be a problem. I have one already since 2.5 years, especially for this. BTW, on the photos I saw that you have a 6581 SID in your card - what does this mean, since the one's I've seen so far had 8581. My second question, the Solder cards didn't really use the filters, the ones above $D418. I don't remember exactly but I think it was $d41e, $d41f. Why was it like that, or why wasn't it? Believe it, it would be worth mass producing this. If you check out the Plus4World forums, you'll see that the Poles, Czechs, Germans and us Hungarians are all languorously waiting to see what'll happen. It cost doesn't matter, it just has to be available. The family doesn't eat for a week, they'll be fine, just as long as it exists, because there won't be any later. Everyone will easily pay 10 grand, even without the SID chip, so just keep hacking!!! Also, I think everyone will vote for 985kHz, though I'm not sure what the disadvantage is if we can't read the registers, since even now it's kinda like that, it's futile to try reading from $fe80-$fe98... I don't know what this means, I never used them: "among the readable ones there are two analog inputs" Do we need this for music playback, or only joy's use them? So, the wheels are in motion and things are looking promising
Well, I say let's get a move on this.
Bye, good night
Csio
|
|
Posted By
MMS
on 2010-08-29
18:21:20
 | Re: SID-card scheme?
As I know the only benefit to get those SID registers readible is the mouse support.
Seems the SID card is the only way to get real mouse support on Plus/4 / C16 / C116.
Maybe GEOS could use it. I suppose there are no other programs, although it would be fun to draw on multibotticelli with a mouse.
|
|
Posted By
Csio
on 2010-09-05
14:03:23
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Fresh news from BSZ!
So, lets get load your money you, you, about 23 peoples, who want to buy a new BSZsid card from 2010, he?!?!
Csabopleasecanipastethenewlettertohereandcanutranslateitagainplease?
okaythanks!
Hello!
Szoval a "beigert" valasz:
2010. augusztus 26. 23.22 dátummal ezt írtad:
A Sid chipet sztem mindenki megoldja magának, az nem lehet gond. Nekem is
van már egy kb. 2,5 éve, direkt erre a célra.
Ja vagy ugy... Akkor nemszoltam (tm). (Egy megoldasi lehetoseg erre is
akadHAT, bar azt hallani meg nem hallottam... De rajta vagyok.)
APropó, a fényképeken úgy láttam, hogy 6581-es sid van a kártyátokban- ez
most mit jelent, mert amivel találkoztam Solder újabb fajta az 8581es
volt.
Igazabol milyen kepet is lattal? A 6581-es ill. a 8580-as nem sokban
kulonbozik, ugy gondolom hasznalhato mindket fajta, ezzel nincs gond. Az en
elso verziom is 6581-el ment, de kesobb ki lett cserelve 8580-ra.
(Tulajdonkeppen -ha jol remlik- 3 "kulonbseg" van: 1 - Mas az analog tap
erteke (12V/9V); 2 - Mas a kimenet lezarasa (Van?/Nincs?); 3 - Mas ertekuek a
szureshez hasznalando kondenzatorok (ertek fejbol nem megy )) A
szerencsesebb amugy az "uj fajta", 8580-as SID lenne.
A másik kérdésem, hogy a SOlder féle kártyák nem nagyon kezelgették azokat
a szűrőket, amik $d418 felett voltak. Nem emlékszem pontosan, de asszem
$d41e, $d41f. Ez miért volt, vagy miért nem?
Most gyorsan keresek a SID-hez valami regiszterkiosztast neten... (Ejj, ez
mar csak igy megy. Amikor AZ a kartya keszult, meg nem is volt net... )
Naszoval, errol a szuro dologrol en nem tudok, ilyesminek nem kellene
lennie... A SID-nek amugy 29 db. regisztere van, ($D400..$D41C), az utolso
harom cim (mivel 5 bites a cimbusza, 32 cimes lenne a tartomany) a SID-ben
nem hasznalt, nincs is kiepitve. Ha valami ezt a 3 cimet hasznalta, az mar
valami kulso hack kellett legyen, a SID-ben nincs ilyen cimen regiszter.
ELVILEG...
Ez a 29 regiszter ugy nez ki, hogy 25 db. csak irhato (ezeket nem lehet
visszaolvasni, az a tapasztalatom, hogy szimplan $00-akat ad vissza), ebben a
25 regiszterben van maga a hanggeneratorok vezerlese, ezek kellenek a
hangkelteshez. A maradek 4 db. regiszter meg csak olvashato. Ebbol 2 a ket
analog bemenet, a harmadik a harmas csatorna oszcillatoranak valamelyik resze
(lehet veletlenszamgeneratornak hasznalni pl.) a negyedik meg a harmas
csatorna envelope generatoranak erteke. Ezeket a (z altalam ismert) zenek nem
hasznaljak, a legujabb csoda lejatszokrol viszont nem tudok nyilatkozni, de
nem gondolnam hogy ehhez lenne idozitve barmi is. Szoval IMHO nem nagy gond
ha a 4 olvashato nem olvashato, de egyebkent arra is lehet megoldast talalni,
csak nem annyibol fog allni, hogy LDA$FD59, es kesz.
Ezt hidd el, hogy megérné sorozatban gyártani. Ha nézed a plus4world
forumját, láthatod, hogy lengyelek, csehek, németek, meg mink is magyarok
epekedve várjuk, hogy legyen. Az nem érdekes, hogy mennyiért, de legyen.
Nem eszik a család 1 hétig, kibirja, de legyen, mert utána már SOHA NEM
LESZ. Mindenki le fog perkálni érte simán 10 rugót, még sid chip nélkül
is, úgyhogy csak hekkejjéé!!!!
Ertettem! Nagyjabol ugy kellene kalkulalni, hogy ugy 20 db-ot MINIMUM
kellene csinalni, kulonben nem eri meg nyakot gyartatni. De hogy a vegosszeg
mennyire jon ki? Ez is a darabszamtol fugg erosen, ugyanis a legdragabb dolog
az egeszben a nyak legyartatasa, viszont annak van egy igen jelentos egyszeri
koltsege is. Ami nem mindegy, hogy hanyfele oszlik el, ugyebar... (Hogy ez
MOST EPPEN mekkora osszeg, azt nem tudom, de akar 50e-es nagysagrend is
lehet, es ekkor meg nincs a kezemben kesz nyak, csak elindulhat a
gyartasa... )
És szerintem mindenki majd a 985kHzre fog szavazni, bár nem tudom igazán
mi a hátránya, ha nem tudjuk olvasni a sid regisztereket, hiszen a jelen
állapotban is valahogy így vannak, mert $fe80-$fe98ig hiába próbáltam ezt
tenni....
Igen, azok amugy se olvashatok. Szerintem ez nem gaz...
DE ezt nem tudom, mit jelent, nem használtam még őket: "Az olvashatok
kozott van viszont a ket analog
bemenet is" Kell ez a zene lejátszásához? Vagy csak a paddlek, meg joyok
használják?
Az a ket analog bemenet pontosan arra valo, a C64 JOY portjan levo PADDLE-k
erteket lehet vele bedigitalizalni. Viszont eszemben van egy megoldas, amivel
megis olvashatoak lesznek ezek a regiszterek, csak ez a resze mar nem lesz
kompatibilis a Solder fele SID-kartyaval. Hany Plus/4-es program hasznalja
jelenleg a Solder-fele SID-kartya eme lehetoseget?
Szóval a labda fel lett dobva és elég ígéretes
Mondom: en nem leszek semmi jonak az elrontoja.
Nah, szerintem hajtsunk rá
Ok. Akkor kozvelemenykutatast kernek Toled: kerdezd meg a jonepet, hogy igy
elorelathatolag ossze jon-e az a 20db. minimalis mennyiseg. De kerlek ra,
hogy ez komoly legyen, jelen pillanatban nincs (mondjuk...) 100e forintom
arra, hogy bennragadjon egy ilyen projectben. A tervezett ar mondjuk legyen
ez a 10e HUF/db, de ez meg NEM KALKULALT AR, csak ugy egy iranyado. Ha van ra
akkora igeny, akkor csinalok egy pontosabb kalkulaciot, de azert arra ne
nagyon szamitsatok, hogy ennel lenyegesen olcsobb lesz... Felek tole, hogy ez
is hatareset. De majd meglatjuk. (Azt mar latom, hogy nem ebbol fogok
nyaralni menni... )
Remelem nem rontottam el a kedved, bar igazabol sok rossz hirt nem
kozoltem...
Üdv, szép estét
Csio
Udv: BSZ
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Hello!
Here is the „promised” response:
You wrote on August 26, 2010 at 23.22:
Everybody will take care of his Sid chip. That can't be a problem.
I also have one for about 2.5 years especially for this purpose.
Ah, okay. Then I didn't say a word. (There MAY be an other possibility but I hadn't hear that yet. But I'm on it.)
By the way I saw on the photos that your card contains a 6581 SID. What does that mean?
Solder's card had the newer 8580.
What photo have you seen? The 6851 and the 8580 are not so much different.
I think both versions could be used. That's not a problem.
My first version worked with a 6581 and later has been replaced by a 8580.
(As I recall there are 3 differences: 1 – different analogue power (12V/9V);
2 – Different output termination(??) (Exists?/Not exists?);
3 – Different capacity condensators for filters (I don't know the values by heart).
However the better choice would be the “newer” 8580 SID.
My other question that the Solder cards did not handle the
filters, above $d418. I can't remember exactly but I think
$d41e, $d41f. Why was that or why not?
I'm quickly searching a SID register layout on the net. (That's how it works nowadays. When that card has been made there was no net yet...)
So. I don't know about this filter thing. There shouldn't be such issues...
By the way SID has 29 registers ($D400..$D41C).
The last 3 addresses (it has 5 bit address bus allowing 32 different addresses) are not used in the SID – not implemented.
If something used these 3 addresses it must have been an external hack.
THEORETICALLY...
Of the 29 registers 25 is write only (they cannot be read;
based on my experience it simply returns $00).
These 25 registers contain the voice generators' control; these are required to create sound.
The remaining 4 ones are read only. 2 of them
are the analogue inputs; the third one is some part of the third voice's oscillator
(for example it can be used as a random number generator) the fourth one is the value of the third voice's envelope generator. These are not used by music (that I know).
I can say nothing about the new magic players but I don't think that anything would be timed to these. IMHO it's not a problem if these 4 registers are not readable. However we can find a solution for that too but it won't be as simple as LDA $FD59.
Believe it: it would worth the production run. If you look at the plus/4 world
forum you can see that people from Poland, Czech, Germany and we Hungarians can't
hardly wait it to be available. It doesn't matter how much does it cost but we need it.
The family won't eat for one week but they will survive it. We need it now because LATER
THERE WON'T BE A CHANCE. Everyone will willingly pay 10 000HUF (~35EUR) even
without the SID chip so do it!!!!
I see. We need to calculate that we need to produce at least 20 pieces otherwise it does not worth to create printed circuit board. How much will be the final price?
It heavily depends on the quantity because the most expensive part is the production of the PCB and it has a big one time cost too.
It does matter that how we need to split that cost.
(I don't know how much does that cost NOW but it can be about 50 000 HUF (~175EUR) and I don't even has the PCB in my hand just the production preparation...)
I think everyone will vote for 985kHz version but I don't really know
what are the drawbacks if we can't read the SID registers.
In the current state it's similar because I tried to read them from $fe80-$fe98 in vain.
Yes they are not readable. So that's not a problem.
BUT I don't know what does that mean – I've never used them - “Amongst the readables
there are two analogue inputs”. Do we need these to play music? Or only paddles and joysticks
use them?
The two analogue inputs are exactly for that purpose; the C64 JOY port PADDLE inputs' values
can be digitized with them. I have a solution in my head that makes reading of these registers possible but it won't be compatible with Solder's SID card. How many plus/4 programs use this feature of Solder's SID card?
So the ball is thrown up and looks promising
I said: I won't be the one that ruins it.
Let's go on.
Ok. I need you to create a poll: ask the people that will there be need for 20 cards?
This is the minimum quantity.
But I ask you to handle the things seriously because I don't have 100 000 Forints to lose on this project.
The estimated price can be 10 000 Forints (35 EUR)/card but IT IS NOT CALCULATED just guessed.
If there's need I can create a more accurate calculation but don't expect it to be less cheaper.
I'm afraid that this is already underestimated. But we'll see (I can foresee that I won't go on holiday with these money...)
I hope I didn't ruin your good mood but I think I didn't say to much bad news.
|
|
Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2010-09-05
18:11:45
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Hi all!
I agree that actually the cost of such a device wouldn't matter too much. Also I could take even two of them for myself, if number of buyers wouldn't big enough.
SID chip's presence isn't required neither, I think everybody can find them by themselves.
The one _very_ important thing: such a card MUST be 100% compatible with existing SID-software for 264.
I understand it will be.
Best wishes,
Y
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Posted By
siz
on 2010-09-06
03:45:51
| Re: SID-card scheme?
IMHO existing SID card versions use the plus/4 single clock to drive the CPU. This new one would use the original C64 clock so existing SID card compatible software can use the new card but will sound different. Especially with titles that has been optimized to plus/4 clock SID frequencies.
So I vote for a switchable clock frequency if possible. If not then I'd like to use plus/4 single clock to keep compatibility.
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2010-09-06
05:24:56
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Siz:
>So I vote for a switchable clock frequency if possible. If not then I'd like to use plus/4
>single clock to keep compatibility.
----------------
And I totally agree with that.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-09-06
06:44:23
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Waiting for the complete translation in english of that BSZ's letter, can I suggest to spread the voice more and more? I'm quite sure there are so many ppl needing a SIDcard.
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Posted By
Pepax
on 2010-09-06
07:03:13
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I want one and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, here in CZ.
And I also vote for switchable frequency.
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Posted By
siz
on 2010-09-07
05:03:54
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Here is a rough translation of the letter above (sorry I don't have the right to edit the former post)
[Edit: moved by Luca in the right place (thanks siz!).]
My vote: I'd like to maintain compatibility with Solder's SID card. Both in oscillator frequency and in register readibility. I use SID registers to detect the presence of the card.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-09-07
06:51:01
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Ok, now I've read the whole stuff.
Csio: I really didn't get the SID filter's worrying about, the Solder's SIDcard had never missed a $D417
siz: I guess 99% of C64 tunes have been used on Plus/4 "as-is", with no particular optimization; not sure if some other tunes have been optimizated by Bionic in the past...
BSZ: what to add more into it? Dunno, what can we add? SD-card memory copier? Really dunno, I'm kidding...maybe...
It's my opinion that almost any owner of a 264 machine, both sceners and collectors (and there are plenty of the latter ones) would buy a 2010 version of something that has been claimed to be, at this point, a common "homebrew" hardware involved in so much software till today. May I hazard a guess? Well, my "magic number" is: 50 overall covering the next months.
But BSZ doesn't need to have 50 in one shot. I suggest to, step by step:
1. ask for min.20 reliable buyers (hey guys, "reliable" here stands for "first money then SIDcard! There had been one Reddi only! :D);
(1½. prototype production and testing? dunno...);
2. production of 20s;
3. spreading word like hell, with pictures, (legal stuff?,) dedicated site, contacting 3rd party sellers (i.e.: Protovision);
3. deliver of 20s and collecting new requests (no money) with minimum quantity required to start producing'em.
At point 3, you've shown a real existent working piece of hardware, looking busy in the production, but next batch will be out only when a decent number of requests has been achieved.
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Posted By
TLC
on 2010-09-07
07:57:34
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Luca:
Csio must be confusing something: he must mean the readable registers of the SID (four registers in total -- two paddle registers, and two readable registers of voice 3), as there are no readable registers for the filter part.
As for the optimization for the "slow" clock rate: speaking of that, if you selected "plus/4 frequency table" in the SIDWinder module packer (as intended), then your tunes are amongst those affected (ie. optimized for the slow clock).
|
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-09-07
08:35:31
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Omg TLC you're right, I used to pack different tunefiles, and I've forgotten that when I needed to reload that specific info, what a shame, ahahah! :D
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Posted By
siz
on 2010-09-07
09:05:22
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Either way: I don't care about the clock of the chip. I just want to be able to detect the card in software.
And there is a routine somewhere that can detect the type of the SID chip - that also uses the waveform output register of the third voice.
And for the poll: I'm willing to buy 2 of the cards if they will be produced.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2010-09-07
14:42:39
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I really would like if the card would be compatible to Solder's card (joyport/readable registers) even if there aren't that many programs using this feature. Anything creating a new "standard" would be kinda counter productive.
Also, I'd prefer to go for the classic $fd40 (and $fe80) registers. These are those that ppl have been using in all SID-card productions so far. Same for readable registers... True 1351 support is only possible with them.
About the clock: Nice to have the original C64 clock but that should be an extra (maybe set via jumper/switch) and not mandatory. Even if the old SID card "sounded" differently compared to the native C64 tune. Original compositions (e.g. using TLC's sidwinder) can take care of this anyway
Also another important issue is sample output via $d418 when using a new SID. Solder's card used the "standard" fix to make this possible. But this introduces some noise, too. Are there better ways to do this?
The (headphone) amp on Solder's card I could do without. Active desktop speakers are common these days and I rather have a un-noisy line-out than a noisy headphone amp.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-09-07
14:49:25
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Yes, I'm absolutely with Chicken and all the other guys: complete preservation of the well-established standard, which has to be a "standard", switchable clock, smart addons.
|
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Posted By
Csio
on 2010-09-09
17:10:37
| Re: SID-card scheme?
okay, BSZ waiting for us
so please somebody (Luca) let's summarize our nuisance and somebody else (Luca) please translate it to Hungarian (Like the sabrina-warning-translation for me before arok) and somebody really else (Luca) let's start the counts that how many is how many...
Thanks Luca!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-09-09
19:00:26
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Aha! The Childish Messiah is coming again to rule'n'ruin the scene!
No seriously... We really need a place where to send money in pure Reddi's style, or some sort of money account on the net (hints wanted!). This means BSZ should summon a tangible final price (his effort included) and ensure us about working prototype (like the one he's just using ). Via facebook and other social network, and don't forgeting the usual places, it would be easy to spread the rumor, once reached that point (of no return!).
Ah, and I wanna see another production by BSZ in 2010 too!
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2010-09-11
05:27:09
| Latest news from BSZ via Csio ;)
BSZ's answer as posted by Csio in the other thread.
beykoz some face from c64 sign up here and you are good pals i share some new info from bsz, and maybe Luca can translate it to English:
BSZ wrote:
Szoval mint azt valaki emlitette, a Solder-fele SID-kartya Joy-port + a SID
analog bemeneteket a Plus/4-es GEOS tudja hasznalni az 1351-es (?) eger
illesztesehez. Emiatt mindenkeppen erdemes lenne a SID olvashato regjeinek az
olvashatosagat megoldani. A kovetkezo otletem van:
Alapbol a kartya elindul FULL "Solder-compatible" modban. Ekkor a SID
886KHz-rol megy (Plus/4 single clock), a par regisztere olvashato. Ekkor a
$FD40..$FD5F tartomanyon kivul el meg az $FE80-$FE9F tartomany (Csory fele
SID-card cime) es az $FD80-as cim, ezen van a Solder-fele kartya JOY portja.
Ez az alapfelallas.
Lesz egy CONFIG regiszter (valahol), ahol ilyeneket lehet kapcsolgatni majd:
- 985KHz-s uzemmod engedelyezese
- $D400..$D41F tartomanyban a SID irasanak engedelyezese
- (Meg esetleg meg valami, ha eszembe jut... )
Ha a 985KHz-s uzemmod be lesz kapcsolva, akkor a SID olvashatosaga nem fog
mukodni. De ez ugyis akkor fog kelleni, ha valami regi demot akarsz nezni,
amiben SID-es zene van, de nem SID-kartya szupporttal. Ekkor bekapcsolod ezt
a 985KHz-s modot a $D400-as eleressel egyutt, majd elinditod a ware-t, ami
(valamilyen konverterrel a TED mellett) szolni fog SID-en is. Ebben az
esetben ugyse jon szoba a SID-kartyas egerkezeles, ha meg olyan progit
hasznalsz, ami ezt igenyli, az mar ugyis 886KHz-s SID mellett keszult.
Ezt a "legacy C64" modot azert eroltetem, mert tudom, hogy nekem mekkora
elmeny volt a regi demokat eloszedni, es "ujrahallgatni" SIDdel a csorgo
TED-es freqkonverterek helyett. Ezt az "elmenyt" had tapasztalja meg mar mas
is...
A tervem az, hogy egy probapanelen osszeepitem elobb az egeszet, ahol ki
lehet majd trukkozni a dolgokat. Ha minden jol megy, akkor utana lehet nyakot
tervezni, meg ilyesmi.
| Translation provided Csabo
So like I said, Solder's SID card can use the Joy-port + the SID card's analog input can be used to connect an 1351(?) mouse for GEOS. Therefore it would make sense to make those readable register's readable. My idea is as follows:
By default the card would be in Solder-compatible mode. The SID would be in 886Khz mode (Plus/4 single clock), and a few registers would be readable. Besides the $FD40-$FD5F area the $FE80-$FE9F area (Csory's SID card's address) and $FD80, that's the joy port of the Solder. This it the default.
There will be a CONFIG register (somewhere), where you can switch the following:
- enable 985Khz mode
- enable SID writing of $D400-$D41F area
- (maybe something else, if I can remember it)
If you switch to 985Khz mode, then the SID readability will be disabled. But you would only need that while watching some old demos with SID music, which doesn't have SID support. So then you switch to 985Khz mode with $D400 reading, and you start the program that (besides the TED converter) will play the SID music. In this case mouse handing wouldn't be needed, and if you do need that, then that program was made for the 886Khz SID anyway.
The reason I'm pushing for this "legacy C64" mode because I know how much fun it is to listen to old demos with SID instead of the beeping TED converters. Others should be able to enjoy this as well.
My plan is to build the while thing on a test panel, where you can figure things out. If all goes well, the IC board can be built, etc.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-09-11
09:27:33
| Re: SID-card scheme?
We strongly need a translation especially regarding switchable clock over backward compatibility.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2010-09-11
09:41:16
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Argh, a dabul post! It hurt my eye! Why you do dat Csio? The peoples please goes to other tread to find translations.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2010-09-11
10:08:18
| Re: SID-card scheme?
It wasn't Csio :P My intention was to unclutter the other thread.
Back to topic...
I don't care too much about the "C64 legacy mode" (some demos have the C64 player routines modified, too, so it won't work always). Therefore, I'm wondering if the C64-clock mode will work with $fd40/$fe80, too?
Another issue is the sound output. Will there be a mixed TED/SID signal and optional SID-only output on the card (like on Solder's SID-Card)? I'm asking this because it would be nice to keep them (at least optionally) separated. Thus, TED can be used for one channel and SID for the other one: real stereo
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Posted By
Csio
on 2010-09-11
12:25:53
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Request from BSZ:
Collect all of your pretensions about functions of new-Sidcard here, NOW
My request is: Bring me, postman! Bring meeeeeee!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-09-11
12:30:47
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I'm a man of no demanding To me, everything we said is good, especially the backward compatibility, the on-fly switching and all the rest. I can only hope in a low low low field noise for the output. I dunno if it could also contain the Digiblaster, but...who cares anyway: SIDcard at last!
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Posted By
Romppainen
on 2010-09-13
19:43:24
| Re: SID-card scheme?
In my opinion backwards compability with existing SID hard/software should be on the top of priority list, everything else is just an added bonus, but the idea about including joyport protection sounds indeed nice.
What do you guys would think of passthru port to ease using this device simultaneously with external memory expansion?
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2010-09-14
01:15:35
| Re: SID-card scheme?
If I remember correctly, Solder's TED protection (to which SVS refered in the other thread) was for the plus/4 joystick ports because those can harm the TED. It was not an add on for the SID-Card but a different project.
The joyport on the SID-Card is different from the internal joyports and I think the risks of harming the TED do not exist.
A pass-through port would be nice but it's not likely to happen because there's (probably) no source for the connectors anymore. Solder faced the very same problem many years ago when building an extension port splitter.
Expansionport Splitter
Consequently, he changed to a new connector and built some adapters to allow "standard" cartridges to be inserted.
Cartridge Adapter
Furthermore, a SID-Card and an external RAM extension might not be the best idea. It will probably work but the external RAM extensions are considered to be out of specs by some ppl (has been discussed here some time ago) and with the SID-Card it might cause even more stress on hardware.
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Posted By
Pepax
on 2010-09-16
04:25:43
| Re: SID-card scheme?
AFAIK you can still buy the userport connectors at www.digikey.com.
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Posted By
siz
on 2010-09-16
05:50:07
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Pepax: the user port connector is not a problem. That's a (more or less) standard connector. But the expansion port connector is unique. There were no other device that used the same pin distance on an edge connector and they are not manufactured a long time ago.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2010-09-16
07:04:44
| Re: SID-card scheme?
siz said it all You could get one from a 1551 paddle. But those are just as rare and who wants to destroy those?
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2010-09-16
09:13:45
| Re: SID-card scheme?
individual Computers Jens Schönfeld GmbH seemingly is capable to manufacture some sort of female edge connectors (see http://www.jschoenfeld.com/news/news115_e.htm close to the bottom of the page) but probably it is not economically viable to produce that low number of connectors this project needs.
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Posted By
siz
on 2010-09-16
10:24:36
| Re: SID-card scheme?
That seems to be the user port connector as well.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2010-09-16
10:55:08
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Well, the site says "The die-casting tool can be adapted to any other numper of pins, so we can deliver any other edge card connector in 3.96mm raster."
If I'm not mistaken the expansion port raster is narrower, so 3.96mm raster won't help
Edit:
It's 1.98mm or 2.00mm. Seems to be a somewhat (maybe obsolete) standard spacing but I couldn't find any connectors and I know that other ppl have tried before and failed :(
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2010-09-17
02:52:30
| Re: SID-card scheme?
What a let-down. As the pictures show two different types of connectors I thought that the tool is more flexibly configurable. Although, as I mentioned, it probably wouldn't have helped us too much.
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Posted By
MikeZ
on 2010-09-17
10:12:36
 | Re: SID-card scheme?
For the 3.96mm female edge user port connector possibly try sullinselectronics.com.
For the 50 pin cartridge port male edge I always used the ckt board from an old game cartridge and reworked the copper traces to suit my project.
Or, you can buy a double sided copper clad ckt board and etch your own connector points.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2010-09-17
10:27:21
| Re: SID-card scheme?
The 3.96mm female edge (user port) connector is still available at various online shops.
The problem is the 1.98mm female edge one which would be required for a pass through port. (The male edge will be on the SID-Card PCB.)
I checked various companies, including http://www.cambridgeconnectors.com/CC/CC_Edgecard.html (they are also the European distributor for Sullins Electronics). But none of them has a 1.98mm female edge connector. Except a bi-level one -p. 56 in the Sullins catalog- but even if they had a 25 contacts version, it still wouldn't work :/)
Nevertheless, a pass through port with 2.54mm spacing would be the next best choice because Solder used this for various projects.
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Posted By
MikeZ
on 2010-09-17
11:32:35
| Re: SID-card scheme?
how about this one from Sullins: NPPN252GFNP-RC
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Posted By
Csio
on 2010-09-23
14:39:04
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Okay, here is the newest news from the newsid.
Please God who lives in Canada, please make a miracle again and translate it at just a minute, thanks!
I am with the > mark, so just read carefully:
kérések angolul, me ostoba vagyok:
Meglatjuk, mennyit ertek beloluk...
- compatible with Solder's one and it works with the 8580 SID
Igen, alapbol a Solder's fele kartyaval probalok full kompatibilis maradni,
minden extra kapcsolhato.
- socket for SID
Ofkoz. DE! Azt a forumba azert tisztazni kellene, hogy EN NEM FOGOK TUDNI a
kartyahoz SID CSIPET ADNI!!! Ez legyen tiszta mindenki elott, meg mielott
valaki felreerti!
- Questions for BSZ:
Is it agreed on to use the new SID? That should be the case if it's
compatible with Solder's SID-Card. Also otherwise it would need to support
two voltages right? (Leave alone the problems an old SID would cause by
drawing too much power - if remember correctly, Bionic reported this).
Egyelore a terv a 8580-as SID hasznalata, de van egy regi 6581-em is, meg
fogom merni hogy mi mennyi. Ezek alapjan tudom majd eldonteni, hogy menni
fog-e mindket fajta SID szupportalasa, ez meg keplekeny. (Errol a tul nagy
aramfelvetelrol hallottam mar, de konkret ertekeket nem tudok, majd me'rek.)
Will there be a "sample playback via $d418"-fix?
Ezt a dolgot hanyagolnam, majd kifejtem kesobb hogy miert.
Will there be some kind of line-out (3,5mm) socket on the board?
Hogy lesz-e 3.5mm-es jack aljzat hangkimenetnek? Igen, tervben van. (Ugyanis
van olyan eset, amikor nem akarod a TED hanggal egyutt hallani a SID hangjat,
ezert ezt mindenkeppen meg kell csinalnom... Ez leginkabb a Legacy-C64-es
modban erdekes.)
- BTW another feature is to keep in mind. Solder at time created a sort of
"protection" for joys ports (*), because the plug/unplug operations could
damage the uP. You can contact him and if agree add this circuit to the
card.
Errol azert kellene tudni, hogy mit is kell konkretan vedeni? Mi "bantodik"
ki/bedugaskor? Ezt azert jo lenne tudni, mondjuk par otletem nekem is van, de
lehet hogy olyanba szaladt bele, amire nem is gondolok... (Viszont en a
sajat angol-nem-tudasommal nem vennem fel vele a kapcsolatot, egni nem
akarok, hehe...)
- I don't care too much about the "C64 legacy mode" (some demos have the
C64 player routines modified, too, so it won't work always).
Azok a demok termeszetesen nem fognak szolni / nem fognak JOL szolni,
amiknel bele van turva az eredeti C64-es lejatszo kodba, evvel nem lehet mit
csinalni. En annakidejen azert tul sok ilyennel nem talalkoztam (az is igaz,
hogy volt ilyen...), de "ezvan".
Therefore,
I'm wondering if the C64-clock mode will work with $fd40/$fe80, too?
Ha ezt az eredeti C64 clock modot bekapcsolod, akkor termeszetesen az
$FD40/$FE80 cimeken is ugyanazon a modon fog menni a dolog, azt
kulonvalasztani nem lehet. (Es igen, ekkor is elerheto a $D400-as cim mellett
$FD40/$FE80-on is, csak nem lehet a regisztereit olvasni.) De ez ugyse gond,
mert ha kell a legacy-C64 mod, akkor az adott program nem hasznalja az
$FD40/$FE80-as cimen levo SID-et ugyse (azert kell a $D400-as eleres
ugye...), ha meg nem kell, nem kapcsolod be. Esetleg akkor lehet problemas a
dolog, ha egy sok partbol allo demot nezel, amiben alapbol TED-en szolnak a
SID-es muzsikak (Itt jon jol a Legacy-C64 uzemmod) viszont van 1-2 olyan
part, ahol SID-kartyan szolna CSAK a zene, de Plus/4-es frekvencias
uzemmoddal. De ez nem gondolnam, hogy tul sok esetben okoz problemat.
- complete preservation of the well-established standard, which has to be
a "standard", switchable clock, smart addons.
Na, ezt a mondatot nem ertem egyatalan...
- I really would like if the card would be compatible to Solder's card
(joyport/readable registers) even if there aren't that many programs using
this feature. Anything creating a new "standard" would be kinda counter
productive.
Mivel "many program" hasznalja a Joy-portot meg a readable regisztereket,
ezert nem lesz az eleresuk mashogy megoldva; marad a Solder kompatibilis
megoldas. Csak en errol eddig nem tudtam. (Marmint hogy EGYATALAN VAN olyan
program, AMI HASZNALJA.) Ugyhogy nem lesz 'new "standard"' a regiszterek
eleresere...
Also, I'd prefer to go for the classic $fd40 (and $fe80) registers. These
are those that ppl have been using in all SID-card productions so far.
Same for readable registers... True 1351 support is only possible with
them.
A Solder fele mukodes lesz az alapallapot, ettol ne feljen senki... (Ez a
joy-port nem is gondoltam volna, hogy ekkora ossznepi felhaborodast kelt.
Pedig a DSUB9-es csatlakozot le is akartam hagyni a nyakrol (mert tul
nagy...), egy kisebb meretu IDC10-est akartam a helyere rakni, amit egy
egyszeru kabellel at lehet forditani a megfelelo formara. De ezekutan ezt azt
hiszem meg atgondolom... )
About the clock: Nice to have the original C64 clock but that should be
an extra (maybe set via jumper/switch) and not mandatory. Even if the old
SID card "sounded" differently compared to the native C64 tune. Original
compositions (e.g. using TLC's sidwinder) can take care of this anyway
Ezt a Legacy C64 uzemmodot valami regiszterrel lehet majd bekapcsolni
szoftverbol, nem kell jumperolgatni semmit sehova. (Vagyis majd lehet hogy
kell, de nem ezert.) Ha nem ugyanaz az alapfreki, persze hogy nem fog
ugyanugy szolni, ez termeszetes...
Also another important issue is sample output via $d418 when using a new
SID. Solder's card used the "standard" fix to make this possible. But this
introduces some noise, too. Are there better ways to do this?
Na, ezt a $D418-as fixet kihagyom a francba. (Mar bocsanat.) Ugyanis ennek
azon kivul hogy elcseszi a cucc munkapontjat, meg bevisz egy csomo zajt, mas
ertelme nincs. Ha mar Plus/4: A SID-bol jojjon a SID muzsika, a TED-bol meg
johet melle a DIGI. Nem? Szoval a "better way" az lesz, hogy ez ki lesz
hagyva.
The (headphone) amp on Solder's card I could do without. Active desktop
speakers are common these days and I rather have a un-noisy line-out than
a noisy headphone amp.
Valami erosito lesz a kimeneten, de a hangminosegre en is haklis vagyok,
ugyogy az olyan lesz, ami komoly zajt nem fog belevinni a hangba. (Legalabbis
olyan nagysagrendut nem, mint amennyire a SID maga zajos.) Ez a terv, meg
keplekeny, majd kiserletezek vele. De a Solder-fele SID kartya kapcsolasi
rajzan en nem latok extra erositot a kimeneten, csak egy egyszeru
tranzisztoros cuccot, de az azert eleg fapad. (Meg legalabb a zajos +5V-os
taprol jar. Az igy ebben a formaban, mindenfele szures nelkul valoban zajos.)
Kb. ennyi, különböző emberektől, más időpontokban... csak mazsolázgass!!!
Azert olyan nagy dolgok nem merultek fel, amik elmeszelnek a projectet,
ennek orvendek.
Mikó lesz kész a proto?
Hehe... A hetvegen nekiallok, de hogy meddig jutok, az meg kerdeses. Kell
majd par alkatreszt rendelnem is a cucchoz, de hogy addig mikor jutok el, az
(megint) jo kerdes. Majd beszamolok mindenkeppen!
Te nem akarsz postolni a forumban, me má szerintem a Luca azt hiszi, hogy
megint valami Csio-szopatás van csak a háttérben
Ahhoz sajnos igen halvany az angolom, de ezt a levelet kirakhatod,
hatha "VALAKI" leforditja.
JÓ MUNKÁT A KÁRTYÁHOZ - és a nagybetű használata nem célzás volt
Remelem nem lesz tul nagy. Az nagyon nem erne meg...
Okay, thats all.
Has anybody got new questions?
Just load here!
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Okay, here is the newest news from the newsid.
Please God who lives in Canada, please make a miracle again and translate it at just a minute, thanks!
I am with the > mark, so just read carefully:
Questions in English
We'll see how much of it I can understand...
- compatible with Solder's one and it works with the 8580 SID
Yes, by default I'll try to make it fully compabible with Solder's card, everything extra will be optional.
- socket for SID
Of course. BUT! On the forum we should clear up that I CANNOT GIVE SID CHIPS for the cards! This should be clear for everyone, before there's a misunderstanding.
- Questions for BSZ:
Is it agreed on to use the new SID? That should be the case if it's
compatible with Solder's SID-Card. Also otherwise it would need to support
two voltages right? (Leave alone the problems an old SID would cause by
drawing too much power - if remember correctly, Bionic reported this).
So far the plan is to use the 8580 SID, but I have an old 6581 as well, I'll see what's what.
Based on that I'll be able to see if supporting both is possible, this is undecided. (I've heard about the SID drawing too much power, but I don't know the exact values, I'll measure it.)
Will there be a "sample playback via $d418"-fix?
I'd rather not do this, I'll explain why later.
Will there be some kind of line-out (3,5mm) socket on the board?
Will there be a 3.5mm jack for audio output? Yes, it's planned. (Since in some cases, you don't want to hear the TED, so I want to do this for sure. It's mostly interesting for the Legacy C64 mode.)
- BTW another feature is to keep in mind. Solder at time created a sort of
"protection" for joys ports (*), because the plug/unplug operations could
damage the uP. You can contact him and if agree add this circuit to the
card.
Regarding this, we should know exactly what needs to be protected? What "suffers" during plug/unplug?
I have some good ideas, but maybe he's talking about stuff I haven't even thought of (though with my English I'd rather not contact him, I don't want to be embarrassed)
- I don't care too much about the "C64 legacy mode" (some demos have the
C64 player routines modified, too, so it won't work always).
Those demos which modify the original C64 player code will not play or not play well. I haven't seen too many demos that do this, but they do exists. Nothing can be done.
Therefore,
I'm wondering if the C64-clock mode will work with $fd40/$fe80, too?
If you turn on the original C64 clock mode, then naturally $FD40/$FE80 will both work, this cannot be separated.
(And yes, even then it's available on $FD40/$FE80 besides $D400, but you can't read the registers.)
But this is not a problem, because if you need the Legacy C64 mode, then those programs don't use the $FD40/$FE80 addresses (that's why we need the $D400 access), and if you do need it, then you don't turn that mode on.
Maybe there could be a problem if there's a demo with many parts, in which the SID musics play on TED by default (this is when the Legacy mode will come in handy) but there's a few parts, where the music is SID card ONLY, in Plus/4 frequency mode. Though I don't think this problem would come up in many cases.
- complete preservation of the well-established standard, which has to be
a "standard", switchable clock, smart addons.
Well, this sentence I don't understand at all...
- I really would like if the card would be compatible to Solder's card
(joyport/readable registers) even if there aren't that many programs using
this feature. Anything creating a new "standard" would be kinda counter
productive.
Because "many programs" use the joy ports and the readable registers, their access will not be solved in a different way; the Solder compatible solution will remain.
It's just that I didn't know this. (That is, I didn't know there's ANY program that USES THIS). So there won't be a "new standard" for reading the registers...
Also, I'd prefer to go for the classic $fd40 (and $fe80) registers. These
are those that ppl have been using in all SID-card productions so far.
Same for readable registers... True 1351 support is only possible with
them.
Solder's mode will be the default, you don't have to worry... (I wouldn't have imagined that the joy port will cause such an upheaval. I wanted to leave off the DSUB9 connector (because it's too big) and I wanted to use the smaller IDC10 instead, which can be converted with a simple cable. But after this, I'll have to think some things over.)
About the clock: Nice to have the original C64 clock but that should be
an extra (maybe set via jumper/switch) and not mandatory. Even if the old
SID card "sounded" differently compared to the native C64 tune. Original
compositions (e.g. using TLC's sidwinder) can take care of this anyway
You'll be able to turn on the Legacy C64 mode with a register, so you won't have to use jumpers at all.
(Well, maybe you'll need them, but not for this.)
If the base frequency is not the same, it won't sound the same, that's natural...
Also another important issue is sample output via $d418 when using a new
SID. Solder's card used the "standard" fix to make this possible. But this
introduces some noise, too. Are there better ways to do this?
Well, I'd rather take the $D418 fix and shove it. (Sorry about that.) Since besides screwing up the stuff's working point(?), and adding noise, it doesn't do much else.
If it's Plus/4: let the SID play SID music, the TED play DIGI. Nay? So the "better way" will be to leave this out.
The (headphone) amp on Solder's card I could do without. Active desktop
speakers are common these days and I rather have a un-noisy line-out than
a noisy headphone amp.
There will be some kind of amplifier on the sound output, but I pay close attention to the sound quality, so it will be something that won't add much noise.
(At least not the same scale as the SID's own noise.)
This is the plan, though it can change, I'll play around with it.
Though on Solder's SID card I didn't see an extra amplifier on the output, only some simple transistor stuff, and that's pretty basic.
(And at least it uses the noisy +5V power source. This way, without any kind of filter it really is noisy.)
Well, that's about it, from different people, different times... Have fun with it!
Well, there were no showstoppers, so I'm happy about that.
When will the prototype be ready?
Haha... I'll start this weekend, how far I can get remains to be seen. I need some more parts ordered, but when I can get there is another good question.
I'll keep you updated though!
Do you want to post on the forum? Luca thinks that this is all a big Csio-joke
Unfortunately my English is weak, but you can put this email up, maybe "SOMEBODY" will translate it.
GOOD LUCK WITH THE CARD - and the usage of caps wasn't a hint
I hope it won't be too big. That wouldn't be worth it...
Okay, thats all.
Has anybody got new questions?
Just load here!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-09-24
20:08:57
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Do I believe it's a joke? I posted everywhere, even on fb, what are you mumbling around! :D
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Posted By
Csio
on 2010-09-25
06:06:22
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I would have misgivings already in your view so why bsz didn't post
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-09-25
16:21:42
| Re: SID-card scheme?
My view? Misgiving? :O
I really cannot follow your thoughts, you win.
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Posted By
SVS
on 2010-09-27
04:11:51
 | Re: SID-card scheme?
Just to clarify: when the card will be available all us we have to insert our SID chip. I believe we have to take it from old C64 cards (I have a pair in the cellar). But what type of it do we find? Probably a 6581, I suppose.
Then I suggest to consider more the 6581 type, and an option the compatibility with 8580.
Thanks.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2010-09-27
05:50:29
| Re: SID-card scheme?
SVS,
actually, I think it's more likely that you'll find an 8580 SID chip on those boards. There are so many C64s with that chip around that it's really easy to get anyway. Maybe the situation is different in Italy but here in Germany it's no problem to find an 8580 at all. Also, it's more likely to find the 8580 as an original replacement part/NOS (new old stock).
Plus, the old SID might draw too much power under certain conditions. That's why the "proven to work" 8580 is the better choice.
Furthermore, Solder's SID-card used the 8580 so that's the "sound" we know anyway
I understand that you rather want to re-use chips you already have but fortunately, finding a 8580 is not like searching for a TED or an 8501. I suggest you check your boards first and see if they have a 6581 or an 8580. If you don't have an 8580 we'll find some solution by the time the cards are ready.
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2010-09-29
04:56:31
| Re: SID-card scheme?
By the way - pretty important thing, I suspect.
About the paying stuff - I can transfer money only via bank-account transfer, not in any other ways. I hope it's not a problem.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2010-09-29
10:09:30
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Of course money is an important issue Bank account money transfers (at least inside the EU) are rather unproblematic these days.
Some of us have a Paypal account (if that should be required), even the extra charges are bearable. So no need to worry I'm sure transfering the money will be the smallest "problem".
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Posted By
Csio
on 2010-10-01
16:16:28
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Okay, don't panic! BSZ has news for us:
„A (mult) hetvegen osszepakoltam a cucc digitalis reszet, de tovabb nem jutottam. Viszont tegnap (csutortokon) osszeraktam egy minimalis analog reszt, meg nemi "reszeles" is belefert, aminek a vegeredmenyekeppen megszolalt a cucc. (Itt most szo szerint kell erteni...) Mindezt a
Solder-fele uzemmodban, olvashato regiszterekkel, megy az A/D atalakitok olvasasa. Holnap kuldok par fotot, hogy ne tunjon valami fantom-fejlesztesnek a cucc... "
Yeah, just run sidcard, run!
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Okay, don't panic! BSZ has news for us:
„Last weekend I put together the digital part of the stuff, but I didn't get any further. Yesterday (Thursday) however I put together a minimal analog part, and I could even squeeze in some "rasping" and the stuff finally made some sound. (This has to be taken literally...) All of this is in Solder-mode, with readable registers, and the reading A/D converters works. Tomorrow I'll send you some pictures so that all of this doesn't look like some vaporware..."
Yeah, just run sidcard, run!
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Posted By
Buso
on 2010-10-03
16:57:16
| Re: SID-card scheme?
where is the pics?
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Posted By
Csio
on 2010-10-03
17:01:24
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Hello and sorry for being late. Here are the pics that you wanted:
Ez egy kep az Expansion Port "csatlakozorol", ez megy a Plus/4 hatuljaba
Ugyanennek a "forrasztasi oldala" (mondjuk az elozo az "alkatreszoldal")
Igy nez ki jelenleg a proto-kartya alkatreszoldala
Ezen latszik mar "ne'mi munka": forrasztasi oldal par vezetekkel es nehany alkatresszel
Igy nez ki a csatlakozos panel a Plus/4-be dugva
Igy meg az egesz "szendvics" osszedugva, a gep hatuljaban.
Commented by BSZ
Translated by:
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Hello and sorry for being late. Here are the pics that you wanted:
A picture of the Expansion Port, this goes into the back of the Plus/4
Same, but "soldering side" (let's say the other one is the component side)
This is what the proto-card's component side looks like
Here you can see "some work": the soldering side with some cabels and components
This is how the connector panel looks like when it's connected to the Plus/4
And this is the whole "sandwich" plugged together, in the back of the machine.
Commented by BSZ
Translated by:
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Posted By
Bionic
on 2010-10-04
02:36:49
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Congratulations, you completed the first 5% of your project Sorry to be so sarcastic, but this is the part that is fun, the work comes later.
Did you copy the C64 audio circuit? If you copied Solder's you should know that it is borked. The transistor is in saturation and introduces a lot of harmonics which should not be there.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2010-10-04
10:28:20
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Bionic,
we know that you got much farther with your SID-Card (and it's sad that it never made it into production... though, nobody's blaming you for that). We also know that you offered your help with previous SID-Card relaunches and that the main developer (the guy from Poland) didn't take much input from the forum.
Instead of being sarcastic you should try to communicate with BSZ. Most of us here don't have the knowledge to develope something like the SID-Card and therefore, we are grateful that BSZ offered to help out. Nevertheless, your experience is more than welcome. I'm sure Csabo will help translating your comments to Hungarian so BSZ can take them into consideration.
It's not like BSZ is just doing his own thing and we have to take whatever he thinks is best. Quite the opposite, by popular request he's going to include the joyport and the readable registers.
Even if it's still in its early stages, this seems to be a real scene effort. So join in!
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2010-10-04
12:59:30
| Re: SID-card scheme?
majd csinálsz rá line out-ot is mint a synergy félén ami van? mondjuk engem nem érint mert az enyém műxik, csak pl. jól jön amikor rákötöd projektorra a cuccost..
eng:
i hope u can provide a line out too at the end as on the synergy card.. i'm not involved because i have a card built by solder, but it comes handy if u want 2 use a projector and an amplifier.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2010-10-04
13:51:02
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Chronos,
BSZ already stated that there will be some kind of line out. Otherwise, TED and SID sound would be always mixed and especially in BSZ's "$d400"-mode this is not desired.
Furthermore, with a line-out available, you can have true stereo (TED on one channel and SID on the other one)
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Posted By
TLC
on 2010-10-04
15:50:11
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Bionic: IRL Balázs is a longtime digital circuit and embedded software developer and designer... he has been doing 65xx, Z80, PIC, AVR, and 68k based stuff for about fifteen years or so now (...to give you an idea... some time ago I told him that I had just stumbled upon an old stock of 20MHz 68030 chips offered below 2€ per unit, and he replied that he could have avoided fiddling with Freescale's 68SEC000 processors completely, had he known about that stock three years ago)... and AFAIK he works for a company partly owned by himself, that has been healthily up and running for the past ten or so years... While I appreciate your knowledge in the field, I guess I can assure you that he definitely knows what he's doing. ...And whilst the pics appear prototype-ish, he tells us that he did that board + cpld code in about a weekend and a day... not bad (lots of wires to solder on microprocessor based boards = lots of time + work, and he also had to do some of the CPLD code... and the prototype already works, including the SID clocking, which doesn't need any hacks involving slow standard CMOS logics anymore... compared to the time invested, I'd call that an achievement).
...And I'm also not really sure that inducing flames here would be a good idea, to say the least... sorry to say that.
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Posted By
Csio
on 2010-10-04
16:07:05
| Re: SID-card scheme?
BSZ pray somebody to translate this:
Ujabb fejlemeny: A hetvegen osszeallt a JOY-port is a proton, latszolag muxik szepen.
Viszont lenne egy ker(d)esem: tud-e nekem valaki kuldeni egy olyan GEOS image-t, amiben be van allitva az, hogy hasznalni lehessen 1351-es egerrel? (Vagy ha ez nem igy muxik (nem hasznaltam GEOS-t eddig... ) akkor egy image-t meg egy par szavas leirast, hogy hogyan kell beallitani.) Egeret azt kapok egyet kolcsonbe ha minden igaz, de "mar kesz" sw-vel is ki szeretnem probalni, hogy minden jol muxik-e.
Thanx, and please somebody send him that Geos thing , thanks
| Re: SID-card scheme?
BSZ pray somebody to translate this:
New development: This weekend I put together the JOY port on the prototype, it seems to work well.
I have a question/request however: can somebody send me a GEOS image that is set up to be used with a 1351 mouse? (Or, if this is how GEOS works by default (I never used it before) then just an image and a few words on how to get it going.) I'll be able to borrow a mouse if all goes well, but I'd like to try it with "ready" software, to make sure everything works well.
Thanx, and please somebody send him that Geos thing , thanks
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-10-05
09:33:53
| Re: SID-card scheme?
You can download GEOS 3.5 here or being served with all the features on Othersi.de, apart of the english version of course, which is copyrighted by...mmm...James?
You can test the mouse even with Terra-X game.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2010-10-05
10:54:50
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Sure, GEOS is available, but does it support mouse right out of the box, or is there some settings screen for enabling it? I'll go out on a limb and say that probably none of use have ever tested this. Anyone?
As for Terra-X, I remember that it had that setting. It also brings back a specific memory about Tom of LOD and me sitting in front of a Plussy and seeing that option. (Good ol' days...) We made fun of it, it was kinda like a joke. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it in fact was a joke... Did anyone actually try it? (Perhaps someone could ask TCFS about this specifically.)
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Posted By
TLC
on 2010-10-05
16:08:50
| Re: SID-card scheme?
[Terra-X] is an 1990 game... it definitely shouldn't support Commodore's 1351 mouse connected to the Sid card's joyport (1992). ...As a matter of fact, because of low-level differences, the 1351 can't cooperate with the Plus/4 joyport if connected using a regular C64 joystick --> Plus/4 joyport cable (in any of its operating modes), so it's basically a "no-go". The only one that is physically possible to handle (with no extra hw but the above adapter cable) by the Plus/4 is the Amiga mouse -- but thad'd be tricky and cpu-intensive. I'd doubt that TCFS referred to anything but a nice joke by that option...
Solder must have added that extra joyport to the sid card to address this sort of problem... the extra joyport is fully (...well, almost) compatible to the one found on the C64. It can also handle paddles (similarly to the VIC-20 and the C64), and it's compatible with the 1351 mouse.
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Posted By
Csio
on 2010-10-15
13:25:23
| Re: SID-card scheme?
News from BSZ-Studio:
„Amugy a project ugy all jelenleg, hogy:
1: Mukodik a Solder fele uzemmod latszolag szepen;
2: Mukodik a "Legacy C64" uzemmod, tehat atkapcsolhato az orajel meg
engedelyezheto a $D4xx-es eleres;
3: Alakul (de meg messze nincs kesz) az analog resz, tulajdonkeppen megy az
audio kimenet, de kell meg rajta reszelni, mert nem tetszik;
4: Meg nincs meg a 9V (/12V) tapegyseg, de ehhez alkatreszt kell
(egyparat...) rendelnem, hogy egyatalan kiserletezhessek. Szoval ez meg egy
kicsit varasos, de persze ezt is meg kell oldanom hamarosan.
Fotot majd kuldok ujat, ha sikerul vegre letisztazni az analog kimenetet,
egyebkent meg eddig azert nem tettem, mert a CPLD fw faragasa kivulrol nem
tul latvanyos... "
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2010-10-15
14:36:51
| Re: SID-card scheme?
rough english translation:
-----------------------------------------
News from BSZ-Studio:
A quick status report about the project:
1: Seems like "Solder mode" works perfectly;
2: The "Legacy C64" mode works too, it means you can switch the bus speed, and the $D4xx can be enabled;
3: The analogue part is still under heavy development, audio out works but i doesn't like it sounds so i need to tweak it yet.
4: There is no 9V (/12V) power supply yet, i need to order some parts to make experiments on it. You need to wait a little bit but i will do that ASAP.
Some new photos will be there when the analogue out is ready, i just worked on the fw so it doesn't changes the photos drastically :D
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-10-17
15:15:30
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Oh! Does it mean the SIDcard itself has its own power supply? Really? :o
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2010-10-17
15:31:53
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Luca,
I think this means that there's no circuitry to provide the 9V/12V (taken from the plus/4), yet. It doesn't mean that there will be an external power supply.
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Posted By
siz
on 2010-10-18
03:43:25
| Re: SID-card scheme?
As seen on previous photos it means that the 9V/12V needed for the SID is currently wired from inside the plusy. In the final version there will be a voltage regulator for this purpose since the expansion port has only 5V pins.
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Posted By
TLC
on 2010-10-18
08:58:56
| Re: SID-card scheme?
As siz said: the SID needs something not trivial to provide, given the constraints implied by the cartridge port. The cartridge port provides 5V supply only. Both the old and new SIDs require special power supply voltages above the usual 5V digital supply voltage (old: 12V, new: 9V). If you only have 5V DC as power source (no AC voltages etc.), then the only possibility is to use some switching mode step-up converter circuitry, to come up with the required higher voltage level supply. Back then, this has not been easy to do, very few people knew these things in practice (...which seems to show Solder's superiority again, at the same time... he already knew the solution and the TL497 chip (the chip he used as base of the small SMPS on his SID card, that provides the 9V supply of the SID) back in 1992... ). Today it's a lot more common to see solutions like that (in fact most of today's handheld devices contain at least one of such step-down or step-up switching mode voltage converter + regulator).
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Posted By
Csio
on 2010-11-09
18:31:00
| Re: SID-card scheme?
From BSZ:
Ujra kenytelen vagyok egy kicsit mentegetozni: a "hosszu" hetvegere nem jottek meg az alkatreszek, amikre vartam, csak hetfon kaptam meg oket, viszont a mult heten egy kicsit elhavazodtam, ezen a hetvegen meg nem voltam itthon. De most mar (elvileg) minden megvan az "epitkezeshez", a heten valamit faragok!
Az egerkezelessel meg nem jutottam elorebb: egyreszt nem sikerult 1351-et szereznem, de tudom hogy hogyan mukodik, ugyhogy probalkozni azt tudok. Viszont a GEOS-szal sem jutottam elore; az angol nyelvu valtozatot nem sikerult beszerezni, mivel "REMOVED BY REQUEST", nemetul meg nem tudok... (Helyesebben: nemetul SEM tudok. ) A neten rakeresve azt irjak (a C64-es valtozathoz) hogy az egerkezelest ugy kell bekapcsolni, hogy nyomni kell egy C= + I bill. kombot, majd a bejovo listabol ki kell valasztani az 1351-es egeret. De az altalam letoltott nemet verzioban csak egy ures ablak jon ilyenkor be, nincs mit kivalasztani. Viszont azt is irjak, hogy "valahonnan" "valahova" be kell "masolni" "valamit", (gondolom az eger driveret... ) hogy ott megjelenjen. Na, ezt se tudom, hogy mit hova... Ehm. Kicsit korulmenyes vagyok?
So, please guys from Germany, help me!!!
| (no topic)
From BSZ:
I have to apologize once again: the parts I've been waiting for did not arrive during the "long" weekend, I only got them on Monday. Last week I was busy and this weekend I was away. But now I have all the pieces to build (in theory), so this weekend I'm going to put some stuff together!
I didn't get any further with the mouse stuff: first, I couldn't obtain a 1351, but I know how it works, so I can experiment. I also couldn't get any further with GEOS: the English version is "REMOVED BY REQUEST", and I don't speak German... (More precisely: I don't speak German EITHER). After searching on the net, I read (regarding the C64 version) that mouse handling is turned on by pressing C= + I, and then you have to select mouse from the list that appears. However, in the German version I have there's only an empty window, I can't select anything. They also wrote that "something" (probably the mouse driver...) has to be "copied" from "somewhere" to "somewhere else" for it to appear. Well, I have no idea what goes where... Erm, am I over-explaining this?
So, please guys from Germany, help me!!!
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Posted By
siz
on 2010-11-10
02:53:46
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I have a 1351 mouse. I can lend it to BSZ if he needs it for testing.
I can't help in GEOS questions though, I've never used it.
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Posted By
SVS
on 2010-11-10
15:41:33
| Re: SID-card scheme?
@BSZ
Mouse selection on GEOS:
It is OK that INPUT DEVICE window is empty. When no alternative device is selected, GEOS enables mouse.
If you use Yape for your tests, select ALT-I (setting input setup) and set both joysticks as cursor keys (fire button is INS of PC keyboard).
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2010-11-13
12:53:58
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Unless someone has detailed information on GEOS 3.5 (like http://www.zimmers.net/geos/geodev.html for C64 GEOS) it will be hard to write mouse driver for the plus/4+SIDcard. It seems to be an easier way to modify or rewrite one of the example programs on the 1351 MOUSE UTILITY DISK.
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Posted By
Csio
on 2010-11-21
16:45:47
| Re: SID-card scheme?
BSZ-firm strikes back again and has some news for ya with 3 quite nice pics.
"A ware kezd olyan allapotba kerulni, hogy lassan mindent ki sikerul probalni a tervezett dolgok kozul. Ugy nez ki hogy megvan a veglegesnek mondhato "tapegyseg" a SID-hez (aminek nagyon orulok, ez egy kicsit "mumus" volt, ket fajta is keszult...), mar nem kell az USER-portbol tap, ill. kezd kialakulni az orajel-generator resz is. Mar csak par kiprobalando aprosag maradt, utana neki lehet allni megtervezni a PCB-t. Az mar szerintem nem lesz ilyen hosszu... Ha az elkeszul kb. (a meret a lenyeg, hehe...), akkor fogok tudni majd arajanlatot kerni ra. Remelem nem fogok tul csunya szamokat latni...
Csatoltam par fotot a jelenlegi allapotrol. Nem tul jo minoseguek, de kezd keves feny lenni... (Megorulok ettol az ora allitgatastol, de mind1.)
A GEOS-os tortenettel meg mindig nem jutottam elore, de azt egy kicsit (khm...) korulmenyes probalgatnom, mert az 1551-em nem fer el az asztalon, mindig pakolasznom kell... Amugy ez TUTI hogy mukodik? SVS irta ugyebar hogy hogyan kell engedelyezni, de nekem ugy nem mukodik. Hogy miert, ez jo kerdes. Egyelore 1351-em nincs, mint emlitettem, de "emulaltam" a jeleit, es nem tortenik semmi. Ill. emlitett valamit a YAPE-val kapcsolatban is, amit nem egeszen ertek... "
| Re: SID-card scheme?
BSZ-firm strikes back again and has some news for ya with 3 quite nice pics.
"The stuff is starting to take shape, and I'm slowly able to test out all the things I planned. It seems that we have the final "power supply" for the SID (which I'm happy about, this was a bit tough, I even made two types...), we don't need power from the USER port, and the clock generator is taking shape as well. There are only a few minor things left, once those are done, the PCB can be designed. I think that won't take this long... If that is done (the most important factor is the size, haha...), then I'll be able to get a quote for it. I'm really hoping I won't see some ugly numbers...
I attached a photos of the current state. Not very good quality, but there's less light now... (Changing the clock drives me crazy, but anyway.)
The GEOS story didn't progress at all, and it's a little bit (erm...) difficult for me to test, because there's no room for the 1551 on my desk, and I keep having to rearrange things... BTW, is it supposed to work FOR SURE? SVS mentioned how to enable it, but that doesn't work for me. Why? - that's a good question. I don't have a 1351 as I said, but I "emulated" the signals and nothing happens. He also mentioned some stuff regarding YAPE but I didn't get that."
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2010-11-24
17:20:18
| Re: SID-card scheme?
no translation??
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Posted By
Csio
on 2010-11-25
11:10:24
| Csabo: tRe: SID-card scheme?
translatedbycsabothx!!!
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Posted By
SVS
on 2010-11-25
14:50:52
| Re: SID-card scheme?
@BSZ:
I used GEOS without the mouse, only with cursor keys able by default to move the graphic cursor.
As it is, the standard input device is the joystick, not the mouse (look: GEOS 3.5). Joystick is used to move the graphic cursor, as well as the cursor keys.
Regarding Yape, you have the options to use cursor keys, OR to set cursor keys as "emulated joystick". If I'm not wrong, Joy#2 has to be set.
Hoping to have helped.
| Re: SID-card scheme?
@BSZ:
Én csak egér nélkül használtam a GEOS-t, csak a kurzorgombokkal mozgattam a grafikus kurzort.
Alapállapotban a joystick a beállított beviteli eszköz (lásd: GEOS 3.5). A joystick-kal lehet a grafikus kurzort mozgatni, meg a kurzor nyilakkal is.
A YAPE-vel kapcsolatban, olyan opciód van, hogy van a kurzorgombokat használod, VAGY beállítod hogy a kurzorgombok a "joystick-ot emulálják". Ha nem tévedek, a Joy #2-t kell beállítani.
Remélem segítettem.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2010-11-25
15:02:01
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I translated the above post to hopefully clear things up. Looks like there was a misunderstanding.
Here are the three important (and hopefully clear) questions:
- Is there anyone who owns a 1351 mouse? (Siz is one person, did you ever lend it to BSZ?)
- Is there anyone who used a mouse with GEOS?
- Is mouse handling a real requirement?
I know it's a nice to have, but since so few people have them, and there's so few software, should we consider dropping it as a requirement? Would it help speed up the design/build process?
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2010-11-26
04:35:53
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Hi Csabo,
My answer to your three questions:
- I do have one but Budapest is too far away so this won't really help BSZ;
- I tried that and worked in GEOS 2.0 on the C=64 but I'm sure that none ever did that on any 264 series machine because of obvious reasons;
- Omission of mouse handling is not a show stopper but having this feature is a nice plus.
Actually not having a 1351 mouse not necessarily means that one can't use a mouse with machines having SID on board. Someone, and AFAIR it was TLC, made a PS/2 to 1350/1351 mouse interface so common PC mice can be used instead of original Commodore equipment. As I know the analog interface is not complex so implementing it is easy, route two traces from the DB9 connector to the SID and pick two capacitors and connect them to the proper pins, it just needs PCB area and a bit of experimenting. If you have driver code to test the operation.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2010-11-26
05:46:26
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Bil Herd wrote:
"Very cool. Let me know if you have nay problems with noise on the power pins. You going to make a video of SID in action?".
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Posted By
TLC
on 2010-11-27
14:28:29
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Did copy and give a try to GEOS 3.5 today.
It doesn't appear to have any extra input drivers included on the disks. It did work from joystick, port 2, but the list of available input devices (menu executed either from pull-down menu or C= + I ) was empty (similarly to BSZ's experiment).
I'd doubt that the code detects the absence of keyboard and/or joysticks just in order to enable a slightly rare interface + input device combo (let alone how that could theoretically be possible to do at all... I mean how could you detect the _absence_ of a joystick?...). Another source of doubt is the date of GEOS 3.5 distribution... info says it's been created in 1985 (seven years before the first production run of Solders SID card). 1351 support could then be only possible if someone had already hacked the GEOS distribution that we have, in order to include SID card + 1351 support.
Also, the code doesn't seem to reference either of $fd59, $fd5a, or $fd80.
That's sad, but it doesn't look like it ever supported the SID + 1351 combo... (although it should be possible to write one... anyone with strong GEOS programming knowledge on C64?...)
@gerliczer: yes, the original design has been mine (the serial mouse version). The PS/2 version was created by someone from Russia (I didn't know him previously) on top of my design. Also, AFAIR Jim Brain (Brain Innovations) has been fiddling with a similar design (I don't know if that one succeeded at the end).
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Posted By
Csio
on 2011-01-25
16:49:38
| Re: SID-card scheme?
New year, new words from BSZ:
A hetvegen akartam mar jelentkezni hirekkel, csak a csalad keresztulhuzta a szamitasomat. Meg szerettem volna probalni meg par dolgot, ami azota sikerult is, ki is derultek problemak. Egy kicsit at kell a cucc "analog veget" terveznem, mert a jelenlegi felallas nem tul jo. (A Plus/4-be bevezetett SID hang tul halk meg mindig, de az erosito meg igy is tul van vezerelve... Valami mas megoldast kell talalnom, egy fokozatban nem lesz jo a megoldas. Fejben mar megvan, de meg kell meg epiteni.) A nyaktervezes se halad ugy, ahogy elterveztem, de a gazos reszig - most szerencse - meg nem is jutottam el.
Meg kozben lemerult a fenykepezogepem akku-ja, igy nem birtam kepeket csinalni. De mostmar vannak:
Prototipus+gép
Közeli kép
Egy kozeli kep a cuccrol magarol. A poen az, hogy most egyszerre szol a SID ill. a SwinSID is. Kivancsi voltam a Swinkels krealmanyara, es azt kell mondjam: gratulalok Neki! A cuccnak egesz jo hangja van. A 20110110-ei firmware a teszt targya, a hangerot ugy latom (hallom) nem kezeli (tehat mindig max-on szol) de ezt leszamitva vallalhato hangja van. Nem volt egy nagy problema megoldani azt, hogy az egyik csatornaba az eredeti SID hangja szol, a maikba meg a SwinSID-20110110, igy csinaltam egy igen gonosz tesztet: egy zenet visszadigitalizaltam ugy, hogy a ket csatornan a ket fele modon szol a hang. Itt van-e:
SwinSID + Legacy SID zene
Errol azt kell tudni, hogy a SwinSID jelenlegi valtozata egy 16 bites D/A-t valosit meg, viszont az en valtozatomban ebbol csak a felso 8 bit mukodik. Tehat ami hallhato, az 8 bites hang! Meg lehet hallgatni, hogy melyik hogy szol... Lehet tippelni, hogy melyik csatornan szol az eredeti. (Nem lesz nehez, de azert meg lehet am lepodni!)
Viszont: A SwinSID NEM LESZ a kartyan alapbol, nem kell megijedni! (Amugy kar, mert ha eleg lenne ez, tehat nem kellene a Legacy SID, akkor egy csomo dolgot ki lehetne hagyni... )
Viszont van itt meg ket hangfile:
http://bsz.amigaspirit.hu/Plus4/SIDcardV2/Hearthfixer95percent_SID8580.ogg
http://bsz.amigaspirit.hu/Plus4/SIDcardV2/WeAreTheCure_SID8580.ogg
Ez ket demo zeneje, eredeti 8580-as SID-del. Arra kernek olyanokat, akinek van Solder-fele SID-kartyaja, hogy hallgassak mar meg, es mondjanak rola velemenyt. Ezeknek igy kell szolni? Szerintem igy hirtelen tul sok SID-et hallgattam sok ev kihagyas utan, es olyan dolgokat hallok, amiket nem kene...
| (no topic)
New year, new words from BSZ:
I wanted to post update this weekend but family stuff prevented me from doing so. I wanted to try out a few more things, which I managed to do since then, but I also found some new problems. I have to redesign the analogue end of the stuff, since the current setup is not that great. (The SID inside the Plus/4 is still too quiet, but the amplifier is already over-driven... I have to find another solution, this won't work in one step(?). I have the plans in my mind, but I still have to build it.) The PCB design isn't going as I planned either, though - luckily - I haven't even reached the messy part.
Meanwhile my camera's batteries gave out, so I couldn't take pics. I have some now though:
Prototype+machine
Closeup
This is a closeup of the stuff itself. The joke is, that right now the SID and the SwinSID is playing at the same time. I was curious about the "Swinkels creation", and I have to say: congratulations! The stuff sounds pretty good indeed. The firmware from 20110110 is crappy, it seems (sounds) that the volume is not handled (so it's always at maximum loudness), but other than that it sounds acceptable. It wasn't a big deal to put the original SID on one channel and the SwinSID-20110110 to the other, so I prepared a devious test: I digitized a tune so on the two channels you hear two different sounds. Here it is:
SwinSID + Legacy SID music
What you need to know is, the current SwinSID uses 16 bit D/A, though my version only uses the upper 8 bits. So what you can hear is 8-bit sound! You can give it a listen and find out how they sound... Guess which channel is the original. (Won't be hard, but you may be surprised!)
However: the SwinSID will NOT be in the card by default, don't worry! (Too bad, because if we used it, and not the Legacy SID, then a bunch of stuff could be left out... )
There are two more sound files here:
http://bsz.amigaspirit.hu/Plus4/SIDcardV2/Hearthfixer95percent_SID8580.ogg
http://bsz.amigaspirit.hu/Plus4/SIDcardV2/WeAreTheCure_SID8580.ogg
It's the music from two demos, using the original 8580 SID. I'd like to ask that people who had a Solder SID card give it a listen and give me their opinion. Is this how it should sound? I think I listened too much SID music recently after so many years, so I may be starting to hear stuff that I shouldn't...
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Posted By
Luca
on 2011-01-25
17:43:54
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Waiting for a translation, before bouncing the news on FaceBook, I can confirm that my tune's emulation is 101% perfect!
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Posted By
Csio
on 2011-01-25
18:10:19
| Re: SID-card scheme?
yeppp, then come to Busodore and be glad together
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Posted By
Luca
on 2011-01-25
18:49:49
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Heh, told ya, I'll move to my new home in March So many things to do...
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2011-01-26
16:49:21
| Re: SID-card scheme?
looks very promising, but prices of 6581 chips are already rising!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Commodore-64-128-SID-Sound-Chip-6581-/370478328167?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56423aa967
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Posted By
MMS
on 2011-01-26
17:29:24
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Hey, I exactly wanted to ask this question, but I had a PC hangup.
Are the SwinSID and real SID price comparable to each other?
Is it possible, that SwinSID (with all the high speed Risc CPU, etc) is even cheaper than a SID?
(yeah, I saw there are some problems, but...)
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2011-01-31
04:04:53
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Like I wrote here, the newest SwinSID should be veeeeeeeeeeery colse to SID, in its sound. Also it _should_ be possible to plug the SwinSID into the interface instead of new SID because that's what it was designed for (to replace the new SID).
Still, I have no news about selling SwinSID. Argh.
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Posted By
x
on 2011-02-18
18:56:37
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Well, noone really cared about the incorrect clock frequency in the old sid card, which already made everything sound slightly off. So maybe the swinsid is a very realistic option?
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2011-03-11
08:03:46
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Hi,
any news about making/selling new SidCards?
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Posted By
siz
on 2011-03-11
09:32:31
| Re: SID-card scheme?!
Hi!
BSZ held a presentation at Busodore party last weekend. He has shown us his working prototype and told that there are a few things he want to finish on it before starting the production run. He also told that he will definitely finish the project as he doesn't want to waste the worktime he spent on it. But he also stated that he won't rush things because "some months delay for a computer platform that is obsolete for 20 years does not really matter".
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Posted By
Csio
on 2011-04-28
14:08:07
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Azt hiszem egy kicsit sikerult tulvallalni magam. Nem lesz eppen egyszeru a szerkezet, de mar latszik az alagut... Lassan (de biztosan) a vegere erek a nyaktervezesnek; csinaltam egy meretaranyos nyomtatast, ezen mar latszik hogy mekkora lesz. Igy mar tudok kerni arajanlatot a nyakra...
Valahogy igy fog kinezni, van rajta nemi zsufoltsag:
Ez kezben (Szo szerint!) kb. ekkora:
A gepben valami ilyesmi lesz, csak nem hajlik:
"Ugyanez" hatulrol:
Az a kar, hogy a papir alapu cuccot nem lehet "elinditani". Pedig orulnek a gyors prototipusnak... Tehat halad a dolog, nemsokara lesz arajanlat a nyakra, utana ki fog derulni, hogy tarthato-e az eloiranyzott ar.
Udv: BSZ
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I think I managed to overreach a bit. It won't be a simple contraption, but at least I can see the light at the end of the tunnel... Slowly (but surely) I'm going to finish designing the circuit design. I made a to-scale print, this one shows how big the stuff will be. Now I can get estimated for the circuit boards...
It'll look something like this, it's kinda busy:
In your hands (literally!) it's about this big:
It'll look like this when it's in the machine, except it won't bend:
"Same thing" from the back:
Too bad that the paper-based stuff can't be "started". Otherwise I'd be happy for the quick prototype... So, the stuff is progressing, soon I will have a quote for the circuit boards, then we will see if the planned price range can be managed.
Bye: BSZ
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Posted By
MMS
on 2011-04-28
14:41:02
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Érdemes lenne kétszintesre építeni, és akkor nem lógna ki annyira 
(Olyasmi, mint az első világháborús repülőgépek szárnyai, távtartókkal, flex kábellel átdobni a jeleket...)
Milyen proggit használtál a tervezésnél?
| Re: SID-card scheme?
It might be worth to build it as two-storey card, so that it wouldn't hang out so much
(Something like the wings of airplanes in World War I, with spacers, passing the signals around with flex cables ...)
What utility did you use for the design?
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Posted By
Luca
on 2011-04-28
14:48:29
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Great scaled printing, now it will be easy fight for the cheaper solution and declare a definitive price. Keep up the great work, BSZ!
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Posted By
Bionic
on 2011-05-15
04:51:10
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Congratulations on your progress! Great to see the project proceeded this far.
One question: Why are there so many ICs? Did you integrate additional functionality that the original card did not have?
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Posted By
Csio
on 2011-07-06
12:13:53
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Tologattam a nyakon az alkatreszeket ide-oda par napot, majd - nagy levegovetel utan - kesznek nyilvanitottam, es leadtam a nyakgyartonak. Most kb. 3 het izgulas van, ennyi ido alatt keszul el az elso 10-es "szeria". De ezalatt legalabb meg tudom rendelni az alkatreszeket hozza. Tehat halad az ugy, mostmar gyorsabban lesz lathato "vegeredmeny". Felteve hogy jo is lesz a keszulo nyak... De most mar ut nincs vissza, csak elore.
A forumban valaki emlitette az "emeletes" felepitest, hogy ne logjon ki nagyon a gep hatuljabol a kartya. Gondolkodtam rajta en is, de elvetettem az otletet, mert jelentosen megbonyolitotta volna a dolgot, raadasul a koltsegekre is "pozitiv" hatast gyakorolt volna (a rossz ertelemben termeszetesen). Ugyhogy maradt az a felepites, amit a meretaranyos nyomtatason lehetett latni.
Udv: BSZ
2011.07.06. News:
Kb. most tartok ott, ahol 2010 december elejen szerettem volna tartani... De nem mindig sikerul minden ugy, ahogy az ember eltervezi.
Valahogy igy nez ki, van rajta nemi zsufoltsag:
Ez kezben (Szo szerint!) ekkora:
A gepben valami ilyesmi, es ez mar nem hajlik:
"Ugyanez" hatulrol:
Az a szerencse, hogy ezt mar el lehet inditani. Sot, el is van inditva, ma mar szolt a SID vagy 5-6 orat "belole"... A CPLD "reszelesevel" meg van melo, de az mar belathato idon belul el fog keszulni. Osszerakok meg egy darabot a "szerelobrigadnak", hogy legyen nekik minta, utana az elso szeriat meg fogom tudni szereltetni. (Remelem nem most akarnak nyaralni menni... ) Az elso szeria 12 db. Ki akar betateszterkedni? (Lehetoleg .HU)
Udv: BSZ
| Re: SID-card scheme?
For a few days, I shuffled the components around on the PCB, and then - after taking a deep breath - I declared it ready, and gave it to a PCB manufacturer. Right now we're in the 3-week worrying phase, since that's how long it takes for the fist round of 10 to be done. But at least during this time I can order the components for it. So things are in motion, now the final outcome will be here soon. Assuming of course that the PCB is good... But now there's no turning back, only forward.
On the forum someone mention the two-story structure, so that it wouldn't hang out from the back of the machine so much. I thought about this as well, but decided against it, because it would have made things considerably more complex, plus it would have had a "positive" impact on the price (more expensive, of course). Therefore I stuck with the structure that can be seen on the to-scale printout.
Regards: BSZ
2011.07.06. News:
I'm roughly at the stage where I wanted to be back in December 2010... But not everything works out according to the way one plans.
It looks like this, it has some crowding:
In your hands (literally) it's this big:
Inside the machine it looks like this, and it no longer bends
Same thing from the back:
Luckily this one can be started up. Furthermore, it has been started up, the SID played for about 5-6 hours... There's still work to be done with the CPLD filing, but it can be done within reasonable time. I'll put together another piece for the "build brigade", so that they have a sample, and then I'll have the first series built. (I hope now is not the time for their vacation.) The first series will be 12 pieces, who wants to beta test? (If possible, .HU)
Greetings: BSZ
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Posted By
Luca
on 2011-07-06
12:27:25
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Betatesting it like hell.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2011-07-06
12:52:24
| Re: SID-card scheme?
That's really good progress! It seems like the end is in sight.
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Posted By
siz
on 2011-07-06
14:14:07
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Pick me! Pick me! Pick me! Pleeeeaaasseee!
I want to test SID card very badly.
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Posted By
Csio
on 2011-07-27
14:46:14
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Attention! Here are BSZ's words:
Informaciok:
Van egy rossz hirem, meg egy jo.
Rossz: a szamitasok alapjan a kartya ara 10000HUF + AFA lesz. Remelem meg toleralhato a dolog, legfoljebb kesobb majd akciozunk...
Jo: most ugy nez ki (de meg nem biztos!) hogy a partira tudok majd vinni 5 db. kartyat! Eleg sok mindennek ossze kell jonnie hozza, de most ugy nez ki hogy menni fog. (Felteve, hogy a szerelessel elkeszulnek, idoben megkapom, nem lesz gond az inditassal... Szoval van par ismeretlen az egyenletben, de bizakodom.)
Egyelore ezek vannak.
Udv: BSZ
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Attention! Here are BSZ's words:
Info:
I have bad news and good news.
Bad: according to calculations the card will be 10,000 HUF + VAT. Hopefully that tolerable, maybe later we will have a sale(?)...
Good: at the moment it looks like (though not for sure!) that I'll be able to bring 5 cards to the party! A lot of things have to success for this to happen, but at the moment it seems like it's a go. (Assuming that the build will be done, I receive them in time and there won't be any problems starting them up... SO there's a few more unknowns, but I'm hopeful.)
That's about it for now.
Greets: BSZ
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2011-07-27
16:52:28
| Re: SID-card scheme?
10,000 HUF + VAT, how much is that in euro?
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2011-07-27
23:55:29
| Re: SID-card scheme?
@gaia, i do my banking with ING, soo you know how much they ripping me off...
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Posted By
Csio
on 2011-08-01
16:43:09
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I have the number 003 of SIDcard and i was the first buyer in Arok!
It is very cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool! Thx BSZ!!!!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2011-10-01
04:07:00
| Re: SID-card scheme?
...and this is the original BSZ's manual for the new SID-card!
Now: to whom I have to send my money?
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2011-10-01
07:30:47
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I second Luca. Who should I send my money to, where, when and how much?
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Posted By
Csio
on 2011-10-02
05:21:05
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Try at this address:
(the address posted here no longer works)
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Posted By
siz
on 2011-10-02
03:33:18
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Someone with the proper rights: please change the e-mail of BSZ to some encrypted form to protect him against spam. Thanks.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2011-10-03
04:15:40
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Csio, does it mean the distribution is performed by direct contact with BSZ?
Edit: I sent a mail, vanguard of the buyers! ;)
Edit: BSZ kindly answered, and what follow are real times and facts by the author himself :)
"The first series is now assembling. 2-3 weeks are needed to.
The final price is 40 EUR + 25% Hungarian VAT = 50 EUR (+ shipping.)
Payment : bank-transfer is OK, paypal is problematic. :(
Important: The card does not contain SID chip! Only the socket, the SID must
be obtained by yourself."
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2011-10-08
13:12:29
| Re: SID-card scheme?
hmmm, no answer yet from BSZ....
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2011-10-26
06:08:53
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Those are excellent news!
I wrote to the producer already.
By the way - does it mean that SwinSID will work 100% fine with our SidCard?
________________EDIT_________________
I've got an answer from the SidCard's producer (the thing about SwinSid) -
"I know the SwinSID, nice project, but there are some problems with it:
1: The SwinSID Audio-OUT is NOT fully compatible the original SID8580, some modifications required;
2: The SwinSID no use the 8580 clock (own clock source is used), therefore only 985KHz mode available (SwinSID firmware modifications required);
3: No Audio-IN, so the DigiBlaster extension does not work (But it would be possible to emulate the SwinSID firmware);
4: No Paddle inputs, the JoyPort analog inputs does not work;
The major problem is the 1. point, I will make a description of the modifications."
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Posted By
MMS
on 2011-10-26
12:27:18
| Re: SID-card scheme?
well, it anyhow looked to be too easy, right?
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Posted By
Luca
on 2011-11-03
14:28:54
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Lovely!
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2011-11-03
14:46:13
| Re: SID-card scheme?
beautifull!!
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Posted By
Csio
on 2011-11-03
17:17:58
| Re: SID-card scheme?
BSZ sent me some words about the photo:
"Egy kicsit elhuzodott a tortenet (mar megint, szokas szerint...), de sajnos (?) vannak egyeb kotelezettsegeim is. Viszont az elso szeria megszerelodott. 3 db. az elozo szerelesbol maradt, 1 kesz, 2 meg tesztelesre var. A tobbit meg "inditanom" kell, de hamarosan meglesznek. Utana johet a postazas... VISZONT! Ebben kellene nemi segitseg. Olyan embert keresek, akinek van a "kulfoldre" csomagkuldessel / postazassal kapcsolatban tapasztalata, lenne par kerdesem!
Udv: BSZ"
| Re: SID-card scheme?
BSZ sent me some words about the photo:
"The story has dragged on (again, as usual...), bun unfortunately (?) I have other commitments as well. However, the first serie has been built. 3 piece are left over from the first build, 1 is ready, 2 is waiting for testing. The rest have to be "booted", but it will be done soon. Then comes the mailing... HOWEVER! Here I would need some help. I'm looking for someone, who has experience in shipping parcels / mailing to abroad, I have a couple of questions!
Greets: BSZ"
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2011-11-04
06:59:08
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Fantastic!
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Posted By
Band
on 2011-11-20
02:34:59
| Re: SID-card scheme?
This project very cool ! I hope BSZ will be soon answer me, then mine sidcard also done.
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Posted By
Csio
on 2011-11-24
14:26:29
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Hello!
A kartyak keszek.
Most mar csak tenyleg a "postazas" van hatra, szepen sorban felveszem a kontaktot a megrendelokkel. De elotte meg ki kell deritenem, hogy hogyan is lesz celszeru ezt elkuldeni...
Udv: BSZ
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Hello!
The cards are done.
All that's left now is the mailing, I will start contacting the people who ordered. But before that I have to figure out how should I send them...
Bye: BSZ
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Posted By
Luca
on 2011-11-24
15:01:27
| Re: SID-card scheme?
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2011-11-30
14:14:48
| Re: SID-card scheme?
BSZ, you rule! Köszönöm
Honestly, I'm really happy that you managed to get beyond the prototype stage and in fact present a finished product now. I'm especially grateful that you included all the features I asked for, even if they could be considered as "of doubtful use" (e.g. "stereo mode" SID on one channel/Ted on the other channel). Thanks for not just doing your own thing but considering many ideas from the "community" even if that meant some extra work (e.g. including 1351 compatibility).
I just wondered about the PCB... It looks like it could be equipped with a connector (I counted 44 pins?). Would this be a "through"-port or is this just a different way to connect the card to the expansion port (via some cable)? Is 44 pins enough? What about the missing 6 pins?
Just in case BSZ ever drops by... Could someone translate this please?
PS
How many cards are there? I still want at least two :) Though, I can wait... NOT ;)
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Posted By
TLC
on 2011-12-01
02:10:44
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Chicken is back... 
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Posted By
Csio
on 2011-12-01
09:03:28
| Re: SID-card scheme?
BSZ's words :
A postazassal igazabol meg nem volt idom / energiam foglalkozni, de kezd korvonalazodni a dolog. Mivel a cucc meglehetosen konnyu / kicsi (meg mereseket nem vegeztem, de tuti fel kilo alatt van... ), igy "level" parameterbe meg belefer, valoszinuleg posta lesz a vegeredmeny, nem futar. A postai arak 2000 HUF alattiak ekkora sulynal, DE ebben nincs ertekbiztositas, azt meg meg kell kerdeznem hogy hogyan megy, ill. mennyi. Dobozt meg nem talaltam, de valoszinuleg csinalok majd sajatot... Ez a "dobozka" majd bekerul egy "buborekos" boritekba, igy lesz kuldve. De barkinek barmilyen otlete van, azt szivesen hallgatom am!
A kerdesre a valasz: a nyakon a 44 polusu csatlakozo egy jovobeni bovites lehetosege, a Plus/4 Expansion port van kozvetlenul rakotve. Az Expansion 50 polusabol 3 nincs bekotve, a 4 db. GND-bol csak 2 maradt, ill. a ROM kivalaszto jelekbol a CS0/CS1 nincs kidrotozva. (De ezek egy kulso ROM-boviteshez nem is kellenek, a Plus/4 eredeti ROM-BANK logikaja "eleg jo", azt nincs ertelme szerintem modositgatni.) Igy az 50 labbol lejon 3+2+2, az 43. Az meg mar elfer a 44 polusu csatin. (Ami "szabvany", legalabbis maga a 2x22 pol. 2mm-es raszteru csatlakozo, ui. ezt hasznaljak a regi 2.5"-es PATA HDD-k, DE eszebe se jusson senkinek erre azt rakotni... )
Udv: BSZ
| Re: SID-card scheme?
BSZ's words :
I haven't had time / energy to deal with the mailing, but the process is starting to finalize. Since the stuff is very light / small (I haven't measure it, but I'd bet it's under 0.5 kg), it qualifies as "lettermail", so I can probably mail it via the post office instead of a courier. The postal cost is under 2000 HUF for this weight, BUT that doesn't include insurance, I have to ask how to do that and how much it costs. I haven't found a box yet, but I'll probably make my own... The box will go into a bubble envelope, and that's how they'll be sent. But if someone has a better idea, I'm all ears!
Answer to the question: the 44 pin plug on the PCB is for future expansion, it's directly connected to the Plus/4 expansion port. Out of the 50 pins on the expansion port 3 aren't wired, out of the 4 GND I left only 2, and from the ROM select signal CS0/CS1 is not connected. (But these are not needed for an external ROM expansion, the Plus/4's original ROM-BANK logic is "good enough", I don't think it makes sense to modify that.) So from the original 50 we take off 3+2+2, which leaves 43. That can fit on the 44 pin connector. (Which is "stanard", at least the 2x22 pin 2mm connector, since the old 2.5"-es PATA HDD uses it as well, BUT don't even think about connecting those...)
Greets: BSZ
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Posted By
MMS
on 2011-12-01
12:05:55
| Re: SID-card scheme?
BSZ:
Pedig mekkora királyság lett volna, ha még egy IDE illesztőt is beleintegráltál volna
Although it would be most people's dream to have a real IDE interface on this card too, extra to the lot of goodies you already have
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Posted By
rudis
on 2011-12-20
17:12:46
 | Re: SID-card scheme?
any news here?
i want a card too.
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Posted By
rudis
on 2012-01-06
13:02:07
| Re: SID-card scheme?
any progress on this topic?
edit 06.01.: any news here?
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Posted By
Csio
on 2012-01-08
18:32:28
| Re: SID-card scheme?
One of our best high qualified mechanic import some infos about THE PACKS:
"Boldog uj evet kivanok mindenkinek, megprobalok par jo(bb) hirrel szolgalni! Mostanaban egy kicsit (muhaha...) el vagyok havazva, de a delutant vegre a "csomagolasra" tudtam forditani. Ez egy egyszeru karton-lap a kartyakon korbetekerve, a vegei meg "lezarva" egy-egy hungarocell darabbal. Eloszor ezek keszulnek el:
Ebbol azert kell par darab:
Maga a "doboz" a kovetkezo lepes, itt mar latszik hogy mirol van szo:
Par ebbol is kell... Ezekbol kell valami "csomagot" krealni:
Eloszor a csomagba bekerul a lenyeg:
Erre "racsukva" a "teto":
De ez igy nem akar megallni. Kell ra meg nemi "rogzites":
Es ebbol meg visszavan par darab...
A "benazasokkal" egyutt el is toltam vele a vasarnap delutant. A kovetkezo adag mar rutinosabban fog menni. Remelem lesz! Ez a kis dobozka meg belekerul majd egy "buborekos" boritekba:
Ezt meg meg kell vizsgalni, de szerintem ennyi "vedelem" mar eleg kell legyen a postazashoz. Boritekjaim meg nincsenek, a pontos postakoltseg kideritese a het feladata lesz, de a "nyugos melo" az elkeszult. Hurra...
Idokozben (meg tavaly... ) elkezdtem irni egy teszt-programot, amivel a kartya osszes kepesseget ki lehet probalni, ill. jo lesz majd "demo" kodnak is, amibol kiderul hogy mit hogyan lehet hasznalni. Az a program, amit eddig hasznaltam (paran lathattak a tavalyi Arok Party-n) az sajnos nem uti meg azt a szinvonalat, hogy barkinek oda merjem adni. De a teszthez meg kellene csinalnom azt a PC -> Plus/4 adatatviteli "kabelt", amit mar regen meg szerettem volna alkotni. Az elektronika elkeszult, a programot is nekialltam hozza osszerakni, de ezzel is elhavaztam... Jo lenne ha egy kicsit normalisabb lenne ez a 2012-es ev, mint a tavalyi...
----------
Udv: BSZ"
| Re: SID-card scheme?
One of our best high qualified mechanic import some infos about THE PACKS:
"Happy New Year to everyone, I will try to provide some good news! Nowadays I'm a little (muhaha...) busy, but finally I could spend one afternoon on "packaging". This is a simple cardboard wrapped around the cards, and the ends are blocked off with a piece of Styrofoam. These are made first:
We need a few of these:
Next is the "box" itself, here you can see what it's about:
Need a few of these as well... The "package" is created out of these:
First, the most essential piece goes into the package:
With the "roof" closed:
But this won't hold. It needs some stabilization:
And we have a few of these...
With my lamering around I managed to waste a Sunday afternoon. The next batch will be done better. I hope there will be one! This little box will go into a bubble envelope:
I still have to examine it, but I think this much "protection" should be enough for the shipping. I don't have envelopes and next week's job will be finding out the exact postage, but the "hard part" is over. Hooray...
Meanwhile (last year...) I started writing a test program, which can test all the card's functionality, and it will also be good as a "demo" code, which shows how things can be done. The program which I used so far (a few of you saw it on last year's Arok) is unfortunately not good enough to be given out. But for testing I will need to make the PC -> Plus/4 "cable", which I wanted to do for so long. The electronics is done, and I started writing the program, but I ran out of time with this as well... It would be nice if 2012 were a bit more normal than last year...
----------
Greets: BSZ"
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Posted By
Luca
on 2012-01-09
02:58:48
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Absolutely fantastic news!
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2012-01-13
07:47:46
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I also wait for it unpatiently. E'mail has been sent (again ).
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2012-01-13
17:15:43
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Respect dude!
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Posted By
Csio
on 2012-01-18
09:09:41
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Some news again from the tin-master:
A postas parametereket a mult heten mar megkerdeztem, csak meg nem volt idom informaciokat se irni... De majd MOST!
A "kulfoldi" postazas a kovetkezo keppen fog alakulni:
Az ar kb. 54.61 EUR lesz brutto. (39 EUR a kartya, 4 EUR a postakoltseg, plusz erre jon ra a 27%-os itthoni AFA.) Ez elvileg fedez most minden koltseget, ugyhogy orulunk... Mivel nem vagyunk (meg?) netes bolt, igy egy kicsit korulmenyes lesz a "vasarlas". Ertesiteni fogom azokat, akik az elso 10-es pakkban "benne vannak", es pontosan leirom a teendoket. (Kb. ilyen lesz: irsz egy mailt a megfelelo parameterekkel, kapsz egy szamlat pdf-ben, az adataidat leellenorzod, atutalod az osszeget, feladjuk a pakkot a postara.)
A csomagolasrol meg par szot ejtenek:
A kornyezetvedelem jegyeben a kartya ESD-csomagja, a "dobozka" anyagaival egyutt "ujrahasznositott" anyagok, a boritek az nem. A kartyak RoHS technologiaval vannak keszitve, ez mondjuk egeszen addig igaz is marad, ameddig az olmos SID bele nem kerul.
Szoval mostmar tenyleg remelem, hogy a jovo heten el tud kezdodni a csomagkuldes.
A hazai postazas azt hiszem most 1 embert fog erinteni, a reszleteket vele is megbeszelem, itthonra nem tuti hogy a posta a legjobb megoldas, de egyezkedunk.
Udv: BSZ
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Some news again from the tin-master:
Last week I found out the shipping details, I just didn't have time to pass on the information... But NOW I do!
Shipping to "abroad" will be as follows:
The total price will be around 54.61 EUR. (The card is 39 EUR, shipping is 4 EUR, plus the 27% Hungarian value added tax.) This will hopefully cover all costs, so we're happy... Since out shop does not (yet) have a website, the "purchasing" will be a little complicated. I will notify those who are in the first 10, and I will send them detailed instructions. (It will be something like: write me a mail with the details, you'll get a PDF bill, you'll check your details, pay the amount and we'll ship you the package.)
A few more words about the packaging:
In the spirit of environmental protection the card's ESD bag, the "box" and it's components are made from recycled materials, the envelope isn't. The cards were made with RoHS technology, which will remain true until the "leaded" SID is put inside.
So now I'm really hoping next week the shipping will begin.
National shipping only affects one person I think, I will discuss the details with him, here at home it's not for sure that shipping is the best solution, so we will see.
Greetings: BSZ
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Posted By
MMS
on 2012-01-19
09:59:03
| Re: SID-card scheme?
OFF
Hi,
I am not directly involved, but how could you manage to pay only 4€for the postage? Is there any trick, or other service provider than Magyar Posta? SID card is not a pretty small one (though not so heavy too). Last time I sent to UK a Plus/4, and although it is not the biggest computer of the history, it cost dozend of Euro to ship (I mean not one or two). Shame on Magyar Posta....
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Posted By
siz
on 2012-01-27
04:34:24
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Yesterday I got a mail from BSz to confirm my SID-Card order and provide a shipping address to him. After the payment he will immediately post the card.
@MMS: I've also asked him how can he manage to ship abroad so cheap.
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2012-02-02
09:31:46
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Hmmm. And I have no response from the producer, for months now.
It's a bit disturbing.
Can anybody forward him my question about possibilities of buying the card (or 2)?
I'd be very grateful.
My address - yerzmyey AT interia.pl
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Posted By
siz
on 2012-02-02
09:34:41
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Please be a bit more patient. He will start shipping the cards soon. I spoke to him this week and he got some (minor) troubles with billing so the thing is delayed. As soon as the first batch is shipped he will start the next one in the order above.
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2012-02-02
13:53:05
| Re: SID-card scheme?
YERZMYEY be patient! i was thinking the same, but i received an email today.
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Posted By
Unreal
on 2012-02-29
15:27:58
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Minden tisztelet BSZ-e ahogy ezt a cuccost vegigvitte becsulettel az elejetol a vegeig, gratula! respect
(es persze az ot tamogato scenenk is)
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Maximum respect to BSZ for honorably seeing this project through, from beginning to end, congrats! respect
(and of course to the scene that supported him as well)
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Posted By
Csio
on 2012-03-08
08:34:02
| Re: SID-card scheme?
News again via BSZ:
Az elso szeria kartya (Vegre!) el lett kuldve, mindenkihez meg is erkezett. Ezekszerint mukodik a posta... A jovo heten el szeretnem inditani a kovetkezo szeria kartya gyartasat. Errol mindenkinek kuldtem levelet, akiket "felirtam a listara" anno, ugyhogy az erdeklodok tessenek megnezni a postaladajukat! Ha valaki nem kapott levelet, az amiatt lehet, hogy veletlenul elkevertem az "erdeklodest", ezert elnezest kernek innen is! De! Ha nem kaptal levelet, viszont erdekelne egy kartya, akkor MOST irj legy szives! Viszont "tessek sietni", nem tudom meg hogy mennyi darab fog keszulni, de nyilvan esszeru darabszamon tul tobbet nem akarok elore megfinanszirozni. Ha tul sok lesz esetleg az erdeklodo, akkor indul majd kesobb egy 3. szeria is. Fontos: a kartyahoz szukseges a SID chip tovabbra is, de en NEM TUDOK ADNI, azt mindenkinek maganak kell beszereznie! Az ar tovabbra is 50 EUR korulre van tervezve (AFA-val egyutt), bar meg nem neztem meg, hogy milyen komponens ara hogyan valtozott. A gyartasi ido az inditastol szamitva kb. 2 honap korul alakul, ez mondjuk fugg sok mindentol, de kb. realis. (Ismert a "feladat", ha nem lesz alkatreszbeszerzesi gond, tarthato is.)
Koszonettel:
BSZ
| Re: SID-card scheme?
News again via BSZ:
The first series has been (finally!) mailed out, everyone received it. This means that the postal service actually works... Next week I would like to start the manufacturing of the next series. I mailed everyone who was "on the list" back then, so please check your mail! If someone didn't get a mail, it's possible that I misplaced their "interest", I apologize for that! However, if you didn't get an email, but you're interested in the card, please write to me NOW! Please "hurry up", I don't know how many pieces will be made but beyond a reasonable number I don't want to finance any more. If there's too many people interested, perhaps a 3rd series will come later. Important: the card still requires a SID chip, but I CANNOT PROVIDE ONE, everyone has to obtain their own! The price is still planned to be around 50 EUR (including taxes), but I haven't checked how the prices of the components changed. The manufacturing time is about 2 months from the start, this depends on a lot of things but I think it's reasonable. (The "task" is known, if obtaining components is not a problem then it can be done.)
Thanks:
BSZ
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Posted By
siz
on 2012-03-08
15:29:36
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I've just take a bit of my free time to test mine. Fantastic! I did not try out any of the new features of the card "only" the playing with plus/4 clock (neither C64 clock mode nor "legacy" mode was tried). The card is fantastic. Thanks, BSZ! (will write a mail to him too)
And I'm proud of myself that stuff that I wrote almost two decades ago without having a SIDCard just works perfectly now.
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Posted By
Csio
on 2012-05-29
18:08:36
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Have a question about the sidcard?
Want to meet the author?
Want a dedication from BSZ?
Want to meet some really crazy member of ACW?
Want to know the 18-years-secret of Dark as You demo by Chronos?
Come to Arok and everything's gonna be alright!!!
BSZ has a words for yah:
Elindult a masodik szeria gyartasa, elkeszultek a nyakok, megerkezett az osszes alkatresz a beszallitoktol:
Nagyban:
A heten megkapja a "szerelobrigad". Hogy mikorra keszulnek el, azt nem tudom, de utolso informacioim szerint "raernek", sokat igy talan nem kell majd ra varni. Lesz annyi, hogy mindenkinek jut, aki eddig erdeklodott. (Sot meg marad is talan 3 db., de ez az inditas utan lesz majd ~biztos, remelem nem lesz problema semmivel, kb. mint az elso szerianal.)
A lenyeg: latvanyos haladas van!
Edit: 06. 05.
Hirek: Elkeszult a masodik szeria szerelese:
A kartyak inditasa, felporogramozasa, tesztelese van vissza, mondjuk ez se kis feladat, el leszek majd vele... De mindenesetre haladas van.
Edit: 24. 05.
Az elmult ket heten igencsak el voltam havazva, igy csak lassan mentek a dolgok. A kartya CPLD FW-jeben talaltam ket problemat, ezek meg lettek oldva. Keszul kozben egy, a kartya funkcioit tesztelo program, a kritikus reszek probalgatasahoz ezt be akartam fejezni. Tulajdonkeppen amit akartam, az benne van, lassan ez is kiadhato allapotba kerul, csak ezzel se haladtam olyan tempoban, mint szerettem volna. De:
Elkezdtem a kartyak eleszteset, remelem a heten vegzek veluk! Ami biztos: a "csomagban" lesz ket 6581-es SID-hez keszult kartya is, azok mar mukodnek. Magasabb a fogyasztasuk mint a 8580-as valtozatnak, remelem a plus/4 gyari tapegysegevel nem lesz problema. De most ugy tunik, kulon keresre mukodhet ez is. (Mivel 7 db. alkatresz mas a ket verzioban, igy NEM atkapcsolhato a ket valtozat kozott, ezek CSAK a regi SID-del mukodnek!)
Ha ezekkel vegzek, akkor johet a "dobozolas" ujra (nem szeretem melo, valakinek otlet?), majd a posta (az a resz mar egyszeru).
Ill. vissza van meg a dokumentacio "kozmetikazasa" az uj informacioknak megfeleloen.
Edit: 29. 05.
A hetvegen el sikerult inditani az uj szeria kartyait, tulajdonkeppen minden rendben volt veluk. Ugyhogy orulok:
Egesz jo lett a pakk, jo lenne ha kellene meg egy ilyen szeriat gyartani. Szerintem rajtam nem fog mulni. Ezt a csomagot utoljara egyben talan most latom:
Most mar csak a "dobozolas" van hatra, utana elkezdem kiertesiteni a megrendeloket a teendokrol.
Congrat BSZ! Yeah!
Hát emberek... így visszaolvasva, meg összegezve BSZ remek munkát végzett, a kasztni jól muzsikál, bírja a koxot és remek a 985 kHz-s muzsika is. Tömegesen tsókoljuk az arany kezeidet, amikkel ezt a gyönyörűséget alkottad nekünk. THX!
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Have a question about the sidcard?
Want to meet the author?
Want a dedication from BSZ?
Want to meet some really crazy member of ACW?
Want to know the 18-years-secret of Dark as You demo by Chronos?
Come to Arok and everything's gonna be alright!!!
BSZ has a words for yah:
The production of the 2nd batch has started, the PCBs are done, all components have arrived from the suppliers:
Pictures:
The "assembly team" will receive the stuff this week. I don't know when they will be done, but according to the last info they "have time", so maybe we won't have to wait too long. We will have enough for everyone who inquired so far. (Maybe we will even have 3 left over, but we will only know for sure after the start, I hope there won't be any problems, just like with the first batch.)
The point: there's visible progress!
Edit: 06. 05.
News: The building of the 2nd batch has started:
The start-up of the cards, their programming and testing is what's left, this is no small task either, but I'll keep at it. At least there's progress.
Edit: 24. 05.
This past two weeks I was very busy, so things progressed slowly. I found two problems with the card's CPLD FW, these have been solved. Meanwhile a program to test the card's functions is in the works, I wanted to finish this to test the critical issues. Basically everything I wanted to put in it IS in it, so it'll slowly reach a releasable state, I just wasn't able to progress as quickly as I would have liked. But:
I began starting up the cards, I hope I will be done this week! What's for sure: in the "pack" there will be two cards which are made for 6581 SID, these are already working. They draw more power than the 8580 version, I hope this won't be a problem for the Plus/4's factory power supply. But it seems - since it was requested - this can be made to work as well. (Since there are 7 components are different between the two versions, they CANNOT be switched over to the other version, so these ONLY work with the older SIDs!)
When I'm done, the "boxing" can begin (I hate this part of the job, any ideas?), and the shipping (that part is easy).
I also have the task of "prettying up" the documentation with the new pieces of information.
Edit: 29. 05.
This weekend I managed to start up all the cards from the new batch, everything was okay. Therefore I'm happy:
This batch turned out pretty well, I would be nice to manufacture another one like this. I don't think I would have a problem with that. This is probably the last time I see this pack in one piece:
Now only "boxing" is left, then I will notify the people who ordered.
Congrat BSZ! Yeah!
Well folks... reading it all in one piece, all in all BSZ did a great job, the stuff is playing cool tunes, "bírja a koxot" and the 985 kHz music is good too. We kiss your golden hands, those which built this awesome stuff for us. THX!
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Posted By
customer01
on 2012-06-02
16:44:08
| Re: SID-card scheme?
oh, well! we are glad!
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Posted By
Csio
on 2012-06-07
14:03:15
| Re: SID-card scheme?
And finally..... BSZ the god of sidcards finished the 2nd bunch!!!
Nekialltam csomagolni! A megoldas a multkor "kitalalt" modi lett
ismet. Eloszor elkeszultek a "lezarasok":
Majd kivagtam a "boritast":
Ezekutan becsomagoltam a kartyak nagy reszet, egy utolso ellenorzes
utan:
Tehat a "nemszeretem" resz is elkeszult. Nekialltam kiertesiteni a
megrendeloket a megrendeles meneterol. Ha a visszajelzesek megjonnek,
akkor fog kiderulni, hogy mennyi darab marad.
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2012-06-19
05:01:28
| Re: SID-card scheme?
Yo,
yesterday I got my SidSard.
Now I wait for the SID chip and will be testing the beast.
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2012-06-20
14:23:44
| Re: SID-card scheme?
As Csio mentioned in his 24. 05. progress report BSZ has found two minor issues with the firmware of the CPLD of the previously built cards. I asked him to tell about these a bit more. One is the erratic behaviour in handling Amiga mice. Unfortunately, the vertical counter counts in reverse direction compared to the 1351. The other nuisance occurs in the emulation of the Solder-card. In Solder mode the mouse position registers ($FD82/$FD83) and last SID access registers ($FD88/$FD89) get ORed with the joystick data. These are minor things so nothing to worry about. BSZ found these when he wrote a test program for checking the manufactured cards. Also he is planning to publish on the card's page drivers for the two mouse types. If someone wants to get his/her card repaired it must be sent to the Maestro for a CPLD reprogramming or, as Csio also mentioned, meet him at Arok 2012 in person and he will fix it on site. But this party site service option depends on if he can take proper equipment there (something about a portable computer with parallel port). These information are half-official. He wanted to wait with the publication until the card's documentation gets updated (english version by courtesy of TLC as usual).
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Posted By
Csio
on 2013-04-15
18:01:33
| Re: SID-card scheme?
S.O.S. please translate it for another scenners who don't speak 'madjari'
BSZ:
Az AROK2012-re igertem par embernek SID-kartyat, elorelathatolag szombat delutan/este leszek ott, az erintettek atvehetik! Viszont! Van par kulfoldi megrendelo, ez oket erinti inkabb: a cucc ara meg mindig 12500 HUF ill. 50 EUR. A kartya EUR-os ara egesz mas forint arfolyamon lett kiszamolva anno, mint a mostani. En a party-n NEM FOGOK penzt valtani, de aki forintban fizet, az a HUF-os aron juthat hozza a kartyajahoz, fuggetlenul a lakohelyetol.
Regota igergetem mar a kartyahoz a tesztprogramot, ami ugy nez ki lassan el is keszul. Egy kicsit azt hiszem tulbonyolitottam a dolgot, de azt elmondhatom rola, hogy eletem elso teljesen esemenyvezerelt programjat sikerult megirnom, mindezt plus/4-en. (Muhaha...) Ha a partyra esetleg nem is lesz 100%-os, de tenyleg csak par ora reszeles van vele vissza, nemsokara fel fog kerulni a "honlapra", nemi dokumentaciofrissitessel egyetemben.
Edit: 07.31.
Friss hírek BSZ-tõl:
Frissult a honlap: http://bsz.amigaspirit.hu/nae
Felkerult ANGOL ill. MAGYAR nyelven a frissitett dokumentacio a kartyarol (Innen is koszonet TLC-nek az ".EN" forditasert!), ill. kesznek nyilvanitottam a tesztprogramot is, ami szinten letoltheto! (Az angol forditasert itt meg koszonet szinten TLC-nek, ill. Csabo-nak!) Ha valamilyen hibat talal valaki benne, kerem jelezze! A teszt nem NAE-specifikus reszeinek mukodnie kellene mas kartyakkal is, ha valami nem ugy lenne, arrol is szivesen olvasok hibaleirast!
A masodik szeriabol jelenleg van meg 5 db. kartya. 3 elozo vasarlot ertesitettem, akik esetlegesre kertek masodik darabot is, ha nekik kell, akkor 2 db. marad. Ha nem, akkor tobb, egyelore varok a valaszukra. Ha valaki rendelni szeretne, akkor itt a vissza nem tero alkalom, mivel ugy tunik hogy harmadik kor nem lesz. (Ahhoz hogy legyen, minimum 12 db. megrendelest ujra ossze kell szedni!) Az arak valtozatlanok, de HA esetleg lesz 3-ik kor, a ".HU" arat "hozzabb" kell igazitanom az EUR-os ertekhez.
Edit: 15th of apr. from BSZ:
Szoval csak annyit akartam mondani, hogy a SID-kartya masodik szeriajabol elfogyott az osszes darab! Nem ment olyan gyorsan, de ez nem baj. Ha valaki ezek utan meg szeretne, akkor ugy 12-15 db. megrendelest ossze kell szeni, hogy erdemes legyen gyartast inditani. De ha igy is lesz, ujra kell szamolnom a koltsegeket, azota eleg sokat valtozott az ilyen-olyan arfolyam.
| Re: SID-card scheme?
S.O.S. kérlek fordítsd le ezt azoknak a scenereknek akik nem tudnak magyarul
BSZ:
I promised a few people that I would have a SID card for them by AROK 2012, I'll be there on Saturday afternoon/night, the concerned persons can receive it there! Howewer! There's a few international buyers, this concerns them: the stuff still costs 12500 HUF or 50 EUR. The card's price in Euros was calculated under a completely different exchange rate. I WILL NOT exchange money on the party, but if you can pay in Forints, you can get it for the HUF price, regardless of where you live.
I've been promising a test program, which will be done soon it seems. I think I overcomplicated it a bit, but I can say that I managed to write my very first event-driven program ever, on Plus/4. (Mwahaha...) Maybe it won't be 100% by the party, but there's really only a few hours of testing is left, soon it will go to its "homepage", along with some documentation updates.
Edit: 07.31.
BSZ has fresh news for you:
The homepage has been updated: http://bsz.amigaspirit.hu/nae
The updated documentation has been uploaded in ENGLISH and HUNGARIAN (thanks again to TLC for the ".EN" translation!), and I also deemed the test program ready, which is also available! (Thanks for the English translation to TLC and Csabo!) If anyone finds any problems with it, please let me know! The parts of the test that are not NAE-specific should work with other cards as well, but if something doesn't, I'd be happy to read bugreports!
From the second series there's still 5 cards left. I notified 3 previous buyers who were interested in additional cards, if they want them then there's still 2 left. If not, then even more, at the moment I'm waiting for their replies. If anyone would like to order, then this is the opportunity of a lifetime, because it seems there won't be a 3rd series. (To have one we would need a minimum of 12 orders!) The prices are unchanged, but IF there will be a 3rd series, then the Hungarian price will be adjusted to be closer to the price Euros.
Edit: from BSZ, April 15:
Well, all I wanted to say was that all the SID cards from the 2nd series are gone! They didn't go very quickly, but that's ok. If someone would still like to get one, there would have to be about 12-15 orders to make another series worthwhile. Even if that happens, I would have to recalculate the price, because many things have changed since.
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Posted By
YERZMYEY
on 2013-04-18
07:42:25
| Re: SID-card scheme?
> Even if that happens, I would have to recalculate the price, because many things have changed since.
-------------------------
I see. What would be the newest price then?
If I started in 2009 all this mess then maybe I should buy more than one card, heh.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2013-04-18
08:00:00
| Re: SID-card scheme?
I'll spread the voice on social networks as I ever did.
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