 Previous Messages |
Posted By
MMS
on 2020-09-02
14:45:22
 |  Re: Possible Plus4 successor
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Posted By
George
on 2020-08-31
17:57:32
 | Re: Possible Plus4 successor
MMS I had portability from the beginning in mind. And Basic maybe interpreted on the plus/4, but on other systems like the Atari ST or Amiga it cabn be compiled with great perfomance result.
Here an animation of some plus/4 screenshots, showing the precision of the engine with this model.
I would like to do these thing on the C65 too.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2020-08-31
17:57:53
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
This is a VERY ACCURATE object rendered on an 8 bit Commodore! I am shocked! 
And all in BASIC! (I know there was an Amiga version too).
Well, I really like the idea to program on BASIC10.0 
Certainly BASIC is not the best platform to make FAST 3D modelling.
Imagine Blender would have been written in interpretetr BASIC.
On the other hand it very well understandable even for noobs like me (it was great to understand 3D model creation going through the code), and can be transferred between platforms, as George proved it several times.
OFF
BTW the fun fact is, that in C64 and C= C16 BASIC every variable calculation is done via 5 byte floating point numbers in the background (should have been 6 bytes, but a trick saves one), even if it is a simple integer. the difference is that how many times it is converted back and front.
Interesting fact, but the C64 floating point numbers are unnecessarirly more accurate then the IEEE 754, as the C64 uses 32 bit long mantissa, while IEEE 754 (used in Intel 8087 match cooprocessor) just used 24 bits mantissa with less precision (but higher speed). In come cases the C64 floating point is smarter, as it has only one ZERO, while IEEE754 had negative ZERO and positive ZERO (!!!).
Litwr's CBCCWIF compiler transforms all BASIC floating point variables during compilation into 3 byte long (much faster) floating point numbers, unfortunately I mainly try to use GFX, and none of the gfx commands supported by this compiler. Imagine the speed increase of this demo on Plus/4 (maybe it could be 8-10x faster than the interpreter version), but the model complexity need to be cut due to routines in RAM (greatly reduces the available RAM for data)
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Posted By
George
on 2020-08-31
12:08:45
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Mad It takes about an hour(!?) to render. Feells not much faster than on the plus/4. The engine reads one face after the other from a file, in order not to cache the whole modeldata im memory. If the Mega65 comes with an 40Mhz mode (hopefully also with a 40MHz plus/4 mode), things are getting interesting. I also admit, i am also surprised how precise the engine draws the models. I just tried my ideas out. Blender outputs the vertices of the models with extreme precision. I had to cut down the precision to BASIC Integer level (2 bytes) and scale them in the range of [-32k,32k] to save memory for the really big models.
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Posted By
Mad
on 2020-08-31
10:31:15
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
George: Nice.. How much faster is it (approximately)? Ah, ok emulation at 3.5 Mhz :D... Btw really impressive precission of the float calculations.. Never used floats in basic (and sin cos?) to such extremes! :)
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Posted By
George
on 2020-08-31
09:09:21
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
@Mad: totally agree. I even would buy Mega65 with the plus/4 emulation.
I like the c65, it feels a little bit like an upgraded plus/4 with its BASIC 10. So i did convert my 3dengine on this system over the weekend from BASIC 3.5 to BASIC 10. Here the result
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Posted By
Mad
on 2020-08-30
21:38:20
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
It would be extremely awesome if the Mega65 would feature a C16/Plus4 core.. Just saying.. Sadly, no VHDL knowledge here..
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Posted By
Shaun_B
on 2020-08-17
10:09:00
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Interesting thread.
Regarding TheC64 Mini failing - it did outsell in some regions Nintendo's mini consoles and has sold really well and continues to be a good seller. Of course, to get the best experience, you do need to update the firmware, which only around 5% of the user base currently do according to the data that we have, so around 95% of all of TheC64 minis remain as they were out of the box.
The good news is that if you have a "Silver Label" TheC64 Mini and you haven't upgraded it, they were essentially the first batch. There is a button under the label - that's how you identify it.
Regards,
Shaun.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2020-08-15
16:15:18
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
yeah, the C65 BASIC would have a completely different level of speed due to fast video DMA, block copy commands and much faster CPU. It is a good question how close the speed could be to an Amiga.
C65 has pretty good hires video modes. (1280×400 in 4 colors)
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Posted By
George
on 2020-08-15
15:39:38
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Thank you! I still got the message from avast.
Sorry for the stupid question, but is there a away to copy&paste Basic-Code from an editor to the emulator-Window? I remember stumbling about the problem a year ago too. I don't want to type in all the code by Hand. I could not find this in your documentation.
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Posted By
deft
on 2020-08-15
14:42:32
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
With XEMU now there is a C65 and MEGA65 emulator. Please head over to mega65.org and find it linked in the top menu. And meanwhile please check (and please report) if the spam warning has gone - we moved the server to get rid of the problem. Thank you!
cheers
deft
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Posted By
George
on 2020-08-14
17:36:17
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Is there any fully working emulator for the C65?
A year ago i had problems to read sequential files..
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Posted By
deft
on 2020-08-14
16:33:11
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Hi, unfortunately we are running on a shared server which seems to have had some spam problem. I contacted the host over this and we will move to another one (or sit this out due to lack of time). Can you possibly try again in a few weeks and then let me know if the warning is gone? Thank you in advance!
best
deft
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Posted By
MMS
on 2020-08-14
15:18:53
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Wow! I think MEGA65 is one of the most challenging project in the last years.
Adding C16 and Plus/4 to this fantastic HW is great news, though I have to wait my bitcoin grow a bit to able to buy it
BTW my Avast sent a virus warning when visited MEGA65.org. just saying....
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2020-08-13
20:39:32
 | Re: Possible Plus4 successor
BUMP
Hey guys. Just received an email reply from the MEGA65 guys about including our beloved machines. His contact email is at the bottom of the email. I do not know of this active VHDL release. Any takers? 
——-
Hi Baz,
thank you for your email. All needed is someone porting an existing
VHDL (or Verilog) Plus/4 / C16 to the MEGA65. Since no Hyperram
and other complicated things are used, it's more than possible.
If you can find someone to take the job, we will gladly support you
in doing so!
Here is something that could quite easily be ported:
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/C16_MiSTer
best
deft
am Donnerstag, 13. August 2020 um 11:10 schrieben Sie:
You have received a new message from the MEGA65 contact form.
Original Message:
Someone mentioned to me that you may one day integrate the C16 and
Plus/4 into the mega65. Is there any truth to this rumour? I’d be
interested as these machines are becoming rarer these days due to
easily damaged chips which are becoming increasingly difficult to replace.
Regards,
Baz from plus4world.
--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Detlef Hastik [MEGA Museum of Electronic Games & Art]
mailto:deft@m-e-g-a.org
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Posted By
Claude
on 2019-02-06
04:38:46
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
In regard to keyboard and case replications:
I had take a look at the new C64C cases which seem to be fine. There are only somewhat expensive and would require some fine works (the pictures show some grate and colour variations). My current plan is to layout one mainboard which will be very small and at demand 3 size optimized side boards for the connectors (C16, C116 and Plus4 case). If someone prefer the new C64 cases, well it would not be the problem for me to layout a fourth side board.
As some of you request a C364 replication:
I will do it IF:
1. A replica of wood is ok to you. I have some companies in my town which where able to mill-cut the case and keys for a good price. I would varnish them so the appearance is optical more or less authentic.
2. You are willing to pay the production costs.
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Posted By
Claude
on 2019-02-06
03:59:53
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
sorry, autocorrection
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Posted By
Claude
on 2019-02-06
03:59:21
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
read cars=parts
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Posted By
Claude
on 2019-02-06
03:58:32
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
@Frederick:
I want to be independent from specific boards for two reason. At first these boards include functionality which is not needed but for which you pay. My optimal solution would be just a single chip (SoC would be nice), external memory and all required cards for peripheral connectors. The second reason is not so obvious. Most SoC are not complete documented (exceptions are the PIC32 boards from Olimex and to a greater extend Raspberri Pi). Writing an optimizing machine-code translator require bare-metal knowledge of all relevant functionality, including the integrated GPU. For the same reason it makes no sense to me to base this program on an operating system like Linux and all proprietary binary blobs which would only complicate the implementation and cost run-time performance. This is important because simulating video output to a frame buffer can result in some latency already. For most emulators I know this is not visible, anyhow you will recognize this at some point as the C64 mini shows. To be said raw emulation does not help either in this respect. An AOT compiler (not JiT which also depend on interpretation) have the advantage to detect common access patterns to video memory as part of code generation. This can be exploited to generate optimized native code in these cases. This way the latency problem is in most cases avoidable (the exception are dynamic generated code sequences with graphic output).
In regard to the mentioned boards and chips:
I think the Propeller II would be ideal. Anyhow I can't see to get one soon and the long time support from Parallax is in my opinion somewhat questionable. Sadly I found also the TI DSP somewhat unaccessible (well, it seems there customers are mainly large companies) so I changed my opinion and will use a PIC32mx DA instead (which includes a complete documented 2D GPU, a very capable DSP, USB controller, 512 KByte internal RAM, 2 MByte Flash memory and cost under 8 Euro). For this chip exist an Olimex board so I can start with the implementation beside board design which is nice.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2019-02-05
08:19:07
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
new C64C case
PRO:
-black
-has ATARI jo ports
-round PSU connector supported
CONS:
-I saw some reports showing flowlins here and there (acc. to my experience especially visible with black); not removed sharp ribs (extra plastic)
-More expensive. It is not extreme expensive, but also not cheap.
I am happy to see these C64 cases to appear, but I think the real thing is the real 264, and unfortunately we have a LOT of not working C16 and Plus/4, and those could can be utilized /revived with such an advanced boards.
(the revival of not operating machines would be MUCH MUCH cheaper, than buying a brand new plastic housing from abroad 5-15 € VS 59€).
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Posted By
Frederick
on 2019-02-04
22:17:05
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
@Claude, I think I'd be interested in something like this depending on the final nature of the product and the price it comes in at. I'm less interested in a "better" Plus/4 and more of a truly Plus/4 compatible built using modern hardware, even if internally it's just a high-quality emulation. I'd also be more interested if there were a standard way of using it in its original configuration, i.e. as a computer in a case with a keyboard. Also, a few other thoughts:
If you're thinking of using a DSP for this, have you looked into essentially building a carrier board for an existing off-the-shelf system of the regular ARM variety? Note that The C64 Mini basically ran Vice on an Allwinner ARM SoC and apparently does quite well in terms of emulation performance. I should think we could take YAPE or Plus4emu and do the same on similar hardware. In particular, I might suggest either the Raspberry Pi Compute Module or one of the TI OMAP processors as used in the Beaglebone Black.
The first thing that comes to my mind would be a Raspberry Pi of course (and the Pi1541 seems to prove that you can bit-bang a lot of the IO functionality necessary using GPIO pins, but I also think you'd run out of IO pins if you're going to handle all the different machine ports). There's also the Raspberry Pi Compute Module but you'd have to design your own carrier board for that, I believe.
I might also suggest looking at some of the cheaper Beaglebone boards as they have a large number of GPIOs along with HDMI output, in particular the Beaglebone Black might be something worth looking into at prices of $60 USD per part. If memory serves, the ARM processor from TI used on the various Beagleboards has a programmable real-time unit (PRU) that might be exactly what you're wanting for something like this. There may also be OEM modules that are essentially the same circuitry on a SoM package but it's been a while since I looked into that.
You could also look at the Propeller 2 as it's essentially trying to be somewhere in the "programmable hardware" category, but it's very early in its release cycle at this time. It's a lot more powerful than its predecessor and could probably be a minimalist solution for you, but you'd be getting into some relatively obscure hardware. That said, it might be worth checking out as well. I have a soft spot for the Propeller family of devices as several years ago it was used in a lot of old-school emulations of systems like the ZX Spectrum, and I've found the current Propeller to be a suitable programmable replacement for the equivalent of a low-powered FPGA in retrocomputing projects.
(Disclaimer: I'm also a bit of an electronics hobbyist and briefly sketched out some ideas on how to reimplement a Plus/4 using a 6502 and Propeller 1, but finally gave up on the notion as I don't think the fidelity of the emulation would be nearly accurate enough for the best games, and the Propeller 1's native NTSC and PAL generation doesn't match up well with the TED color palette either. In the end I still ended up working on a 6502-based retrocomputer but gave up on the notion of Plus/4 compatibility rather early on.)
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Posted By
Claude
on 2019-02-03
11:56:38
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
I would prefer to build a replacement board avoiding case design. Anyhow, I think only the C16 case have enough space for two Atari connectors.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2019-02-02
16:10:12
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
I m interested too.
V364 case would be fantastic, but a completely different level and kind of project (injection moulded? 3D printed?, how you get the special colored keys get tampo printed or laser engraved?)
So I am also with the idea with a board may fit onto the existing housing.
Worth to mention, that actually there is no real use of the user port of the plus/4. I planned to do some, but failedwith those attemts.
Maybe a board fitting into a C16 case would provide more space inside, and more space for the connectors.
(Not to mention it may accept the same simple jack DC PSU connector as the C16 )
On the other hand, there is a person want to make the V364 case, but as an extension of the Plus/4, so if the PCB would be Plus/4 compatible, it would fit both.
PS: please do NOT keep the original joystick connectors :-) (I know it needs bigger cut-out, but eh...)
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2019-02-02
07:53:13
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Interesting approach, never would've guessed. For the case you may ask the MEGA65 guys, how to they fare with theirs. They are trying to build a complete replica of the never really finished C=65 with performance and feature upgrades.
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Posted By
Spektro
on 2019-02-02
05:00:44
 | Re: Possible Plus4 successor
@gerliczer
I would prefer a C64 Reloaded -type solution: a modernized and expanded Plus/4 motherboard which fits into the original Plus/4 case.
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Posted By
Claude
on 2019-02-02
04:50:26
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Thanks for all responses so far. I'm planning a somewhat novel design based on my own research and development of dynamic (at runtime) machine code translation. I'm not interested in FPGA based recreations. This is mainly result of my current lack of HDL knowledge and inherently implementation costs of such approaches. What I have in mind is a simple board with a HDMI port, around 16 MByte of SRAM, an SD card slot and possible all C264 ports for compatibility purposes. Main CPU will be a general purpose DSP SoC from TI (well a VLIW architecture is of advantage here) executing a special firmware which mainly compiles AOT binaries inclusive emulation code for all possible system functionality. The compiler is extensible so one can extend the system with new features if demanded. The whole board will approximatly cost under 100 Euro so it would no problem for me to build on demand (50 at 100 users would be nice to handle). However a recreation of the original c364 keyboard inclusive case would be way to expensive to build without fundraising (hopefully the right word) and for such I estimate not enough interest for a somewhat civil Price. It is probably possible to recreate a similar case and keyboard of wood which is for sure much cheaper (and looks better in my opinion).
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2019-02-02
03:50:33
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
INTERESTED!
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2019-02-02
02:44:55
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Would that be another C64 Mini? A fruitpie or similar mini SBC in a useless case running an outdated emulator in violation of GPL? What would be the point in that? Or would it be a core for some generic FPGA emulator like MiST? Or maybe something like FPGATED?
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Posted By
Spektro
on 2019-02-02
03:02:16
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
@Claude
I would be interested in a revised C264 computer for sure: built-in SD2IEC, S-Video/HDMI port, updated joystick ports, plenty of RAM (modern memory modules accepted), new multicolor screen modes, blitter, digital audio channels using a DSP, and so on
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Posted By
Jakec
on 2019-02-01
14:49:47
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
In my opinion, the c64mini failed… . :/ How much would they buy from c+4? 50 - 100piece
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Posted By
George
on 2020-08-31
09:01:35
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Hi Claude,
many people (me included) wish the original V364. Only 3 prototypes exists (only one in production plastic). This could be an interesting project. The 364 has an addition numpad and voice output. If you have the possibility to make only the case, this could be cool too.
We already have a mini: It's called Commodore 116.
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Posted By
Claude
on 2019-02-01
13:00:21
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Yes, if there is enough interest
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Posted By
bubis
on 2019-02-01
06:09:49
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Because if we let you know you will do it?
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Posted By
Claude
on 2019-01-31
06:21:16
| Re: Possible Plus4 successor
Sorry C264 of course (typing error).
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Posted By
Claude
on 2019-01-31
06:19:49
| Possible Plus4 successor
Hello, there exist now some successful recreations of old home computers such as the C64 mini, ZX Spectrum next, various smaller successors of old game consoles etc. If there is interest in a similar C364 compatible home computer let it be known. Thanks.
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