Posted By
zzarko
on 2024-07-11
10:40:25
|  1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Hi all,
I wanted to ask is it possible to connect 1541 modded with parallel cable to be used with Plus/4 (using a parallel cable too, of course)? I was thinking something like this SpeedDOS/DolphinDOS modification:
https://sta.c64.org/cbmpar.html
Were there projects like this for Plus/4?
|
|
Posted By
zzarko
on 2024-07-11
10:43:50
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
[ oooooh, I just saw that this thread has a number 50000 !!!  ]
|
|
Posted By
Csabo
on 2024-07-11
11:44:13
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Congrats on that nice round number, you win... pride and sense of accomplishment?
I've heard that this topic came up on CSDb, but unfortunately, that forum is not open (and the folks asking this question were wary of P4W). I think BSZ and siz (who are both very knowledgeable about this stuff) heard about the issue and talked about it, but the problem is - as I understand it - that this is homebrew territory, with no real standards. Bottom line: hopefully one of them will be able to give an actual answer, stay tuned!
|
|
Posted By
zzarko
on 2024-07-11
13:16:00
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
I have found P4W to be quite pleasant community, so that is why I dared to ask
|
|
Posted By
Crown
on 2024-07-11
15:10:47
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Yes, there were both 6529 and 8255 based solutions. 6529 on the user port of the plus/4, and custom 8255 boards for C16, either built inside the machine, or as a cartridge adapter.
Some of the software for it:
Port-Turbo V1
Port-Backup
Essentially every file and disk copy programs had both 8225 and 6529 versions, tough I'm not sure each has been archived yet.
The two versions really differ only in a few bytes, the port is mapped at a different location, and maybe the chip intialization byte differs, but that's all. It really took like five seconds to update an app from one chip to the other.
|
|
Posted By
zzarko
on 2024-07-11
15:28:24
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
@Crown: Thank you very much for your answer! I took a look at hardware page here before posting the question, hoping to find something about this topic, but I was unsuccessful...
|
|
Posted By
BSZ
on 2024-07-11
15:55:23
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
@zzarko: This is an interesting question. I don't know of a solution like DolphinDOS / SpeedDOS on C64/C128. (I thought for a long time that OS92/OS96 was like that, but I never tried it, and reading their description I can't find any reference to it.)
But - as Crown writes - some programmes have support for this. The only question is the hardware connection. The original VIC20/C64/C128 version uses 2 additional wires in addition to the 8 data bits. The plus/4 cable does not have a "standard" connection point for these two extra wires. But they are not easy to use in the original way; as plus/4 does not include a generic interface circuit like VIA/CIA.
A few days ago, I checked at some "port" programs, but I couldn't find any that required the extra wire (other than the 8 data bits). For this reason, connecting 8 data lines is probably sufficient. But if someone finds a software that needs one / all of the plus lines, please let me know, I'd be curious to know about it!
|
|
Posted By
Crown
on 2024-07-12
03:31:28
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Yes only the 8 data lines are connected. The standard IEC bus lines are used for those extra control bits, for handshake.
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-13
12:38:43
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Hy!
I am the one who asked "over there"
For the most part, i am interested in whether a solution exists which a) connects to the userport and b) does that without the help of any port chips (ie "just wires")
The point is: i am cleaning up VICE code right now, and i am removing stuff that shouldnt be there - and as for plus4, there exists an implementation of "speeddos parallel cable" - which i think can not work like this at all (due to the AICA etc).
So IF something like this exists, i'd like to see the software that works with it - and i'd need the pinout of the cable, so i can fix this in VICE accordingly.
|
|
Posted By
Csabo
on 2024-07-13
15:24:10
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Hey there, welcome to the forum I think it is my duty now to drop a "VICE sucks", just so that we live up to the expectations  Cleaning up the code would be very welcome though, happy to hear that progress is being made.
If I could have just one thing fixed, it would be the sound emulation. On a stock Plus/4 setting the sound frequency registers to the highest value ($03FE) should produce no sound. Several music players use this to turn channels off. In VICE however, this produces an audible, very high pitch tone, which is frankly painful to listen to. But I digress - I'm sure the audio emulation part is very far from anything to do with floppy stuff.
Some of the software the use the cable is mentioned above. The one other thing I wanted to add: not sure if it helps, but the cable has been added to the Hardware section: User Port Floppy Parallel Cable.
|
|
Posted By
siz
on 2024-07-13
15:29:47
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Hi, Groepaz, welcome here!
Please do not remove the parallel floppy support from xplus4. I use it sometimes to test my loader as it supports parallel 1541 too.
|
|
Posted By
Crown
on 2024-07-13
15:48:45
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
The 6529 is included in every plus/4 machine ever manufactured and is connected to the user port, the C16 and C116 doesn't have it, as they don't have a user port.
The 6529 is mapped at $fd10-$fd1f, the 8 data bit is available on the userport as BK4567JF. D0 is B, D1 is K etc...
It is directly connected to the VIA #1 in the 1541.
It doesn't have /Flag2 and /PC2, so CA2 and CB1 in the VIA is not connected, and is not used. Is is not a speedos parallel cable, it is a plus4 specific parallel cable, which works with custom plus4 software, which does not rely on having a speedos ROM installed in the 1541.
Just look at the plus/4 schematics and the 6529 data sheet, every information needed is there.
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-13
16:14:21
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
"If I could have just one thing fixed, it would be the sound emulation. On a stock Plus/4 setting the sound frequency registers to the highest value ($03FE) should produce no sound. Several music players use this to turn channels off. In VICE however, this produces an audible, very high pitch tone, which is frankly painful to listen to. But I digress - I'm sure the audio emulation part is very far from anything to do with floppy stuff."
You might want to start with reporting a bug then, ideally with a test program -> https://sourceforge.net/p/vice-emu/bugs/
Please understand that right now we do not have an active Plus4 maintainer, and all i am doing here is cleaning up the userport system. Others may randomly pick up Plus4 bugs - but for that to happen a bug report must exist, without one chances are close to zero
"The 6529 is mapped at $fd10-$fd1f, the 8 data bit is available on the userport as BK4567JF. D0 is B, D1 is K etc...
It is directly connected to the VIA #1 in the 1541.
It doesn't have /Flag2 and /PC2, so CA2 and CB1 in the VIA is not connected, and is not used. Is is not a speedos parallel cable, it is a plus4 specific parallel cable, which works with custom plus4 software, which does not rely on having a speedos ROM installed in the 1541."
OK, thats the info i was looking for - thanks. What would be an easy way to test if this works then? Currently the implementation is a bit weird, i want to change some details there, which is a bit of a risky thing to do without being able to verify that i didn't screw it up
|
|
Posted By
Harry Potter
on 2024-07-13
16:21:09
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Csabo: maybe Vice's Plus4 emulation is not perfect, but it has some features that at least most other emulators don't have, such as true drive emulation with write, Hannes memory expansion, 1581 drive emulation, multiple configs, cartridge support and a user-definable color palette. Just saying....
Csabo: why don't you like Vice?
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-13
18:03:18
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
(please let's not derail the thread)
OK so, apparently the current implementation matches what you said - i'd still like some software that lets me check if it works (the simpler the better)
|
|
Posted By
Harry Potter
on 2024-07-13
18:07:56
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
gpz: Sorry for the OT post: I just wanted to state my opinion and ask Csabo the reason for his opinion. Administrator: I thank you for combining my posts: they were supposed to go together, but the second one was an after thought.
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-13
18:12:30
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Oh and another thing... is there a common/popular name for this cable? How should it be called in the UI?
|
|
Posted By
Crown
on 2024-07-13
18:38:03
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Check Duplicator V4.0
This is the only one I found now which is definitely using the 6529 method.
After it uncompress you will find data transfer routines at following location
$1200
$15fa
First one is byte read, second is byte write. As far as I recall Duplicator had suboptimal byte based transfer routines.
If you can do a successful file copy from one image to another, and you get trace hits at these locations, then it certainly works.
|
|
Posted By
Spektro
on 2024-07-13
19:13:50
 | Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Csabo said: If I could have just one thing fixed, it would be the sound emulation. On a stock Plus/4 setting the sound frequency registers to the highest value ($03FE) should produce no sound.
gpz said: You might want to start with reporting a bug then, ideally with a test program -> https://sourceforge.net/p/vice-emu/bugs/
I've reported the $03fe bug in 2017: https://sourceforge.net/p/vice-emu/bugs/887/
It would be really good if that could be fixed.
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-13
19:48:49
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
check r45225 -> https://github.com/VICE-Team/svn-mirror/releases
I have fixed the UI, and did a quick check with Duplicator (for some reason the breakpoint hits on $1200 when reading - but not on the other when writing *shrug*). Speed seems to indicate parallel cable is used though.
Someone please test if this works as expected now, so i can cross it out on my list
Spektro: OK, fine then. as said, we don't have an active Plus4 maintainer (and we have a long todo list for generic stuff right now)
|
|
Posted By
Crown
on 2024-07-14
05:42:57
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Sorry entry point is $15fc not $15fa for write.
How do you actually set this up for testing? I'm using 3.8 GTK on Mac, I select 1541 on drive setting page, and Userport parallel drive cable on Userport devices, and I'm getting a popup "Remember that you'll have to select a parallel cable in the drive settings" but the option is not there. What do I need to do to configure the cable on the drive as well?
Also you can convert Port-Turbo V1 very easily from 8255 to 6529 and check with that in a few steps:
Load it but don't run it. Enter Monitor.
You need to NOP out $FE03 writes on the following locations: (This is the control register of the 8255, 6529 doesn't have one) This can be skipped as it will be writes to unconnected space and nobody really cares.
$11f3 sta $fe03
$12be stx $fe03
$12d6 sta $fe03
Then you need to update the port read and writes at the following locations. (replace $fe00 to $fd10, leave the opcodes as is)
$12af ldx $fe00 -> ldx $fd10
$12c1 sta $fe00 -> sta $fd10
$12f9 lda $fe00 -> lda $fd10
$1303 lda $fe00 -> lda $fd10
$1311 lda $fe00 -> lda $fd10
$131b lda $fe00 -> lda $fd10
Now save it from $1001 to $1539, and you have a 6529 version of Port Load which is a fast loader using the parallel cable. Run it, and standard load will use it, loads 150 blocks in a few seconds.
UPDATE: so I've checked the provided patched version on Windows, UI works as expected, Duplicator works, and on a superficial check the copied file loads and runs, but I haven't done a byte compare, if there are no errors.
Modified Port turbo runs, but ends up in Load error. That needs to be looked at.
|
|
Posted By
siz
on 2024-07-14
07:46:08
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
@gpz: the easiest way to check if the parallel connection works as expected is to check the hardware detection program from my loader. You can find it here. I won't include the sources now (but it's on GitHub) because it has a lot of dependencies and it does a lot of other things so it's too complicated.
Expected behavior is to print a detected 1541 parallel when the parallel cable is connected.
As for the cable name I was happy with the name standard before. But (as @Csabo mentioned) it's (now) in our hardware database and called User Port Floppy Parallel Cable.
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-14
08:14:23
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
You absolutely need the development build i linked to... its basically what i am trying to fix there
|
|
Posted By
Crown
on 2024-07-14
16:19:28
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Yes I've checked with the development build you've provided.
For Port Turbo it seems that there is an emulation problem on the disk layer in Vice, and not with the data transfer.
Port turbo is a very special one, it reads and transfers multiple blocks at once in the original GCR format as the data comes off the drive head, and it does the GCR decoding in the Plus4. In the GCR buffer on the plus4 memory I see series of bytes like $10 $12 $00 $08 $10 $0a etc... Doesn't look like valid GCR bytes.
Once you run Port Turbo, it copies itself into high and low memory.
The drive code which runs in the 1541 is at $dd00 in the plus4 memory
$de00-$deff is used to temporary store the GCR decoded data, before copied into target location
$df00-$f5ec is the GCR buffer.
The plus4 code starts at $f9be and there are code at $0600 as well.
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-14
16:48:01
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
The 1541 emulation should really be pretty solid, so it must be some Plus4 specific problem.
Sounds like another issue to be solved by whoever wants to pick it up As always: please report a bug
|
|
Posted By
MMS
on 2024-07-15
02:11:41
 | Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
@Harry Potter: Our biggest problem with VICE, that it is not accurate. Just to reflect you points:
Hannes RAM emulation is in YAPE (I tested it with few demos).
1581 emulation is in YAPE (I tested it because for a specific project I needed that size).
In fact it is possible to use JiffyDOS too, if you have the ROM files.
True drive emulation with write also happens. Yape just asks, if to overwrite or not the original (I know because I made some Multibotticelli pictures in YAPE with D64 disc).
|
|
Posted By
Harry Potter
on 2024-07-14
19:21:25
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Okay, thank you. I'd better convert then.
|
|
Posted By
Harry Potter
on 2024-07-14
19:31:26
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
I downloaded YAPE but am wondering if there's a version for Win98, as I have a Win98SE computer at my mother's house.
|
|
Posted By
Harry Potter
on 2024-07-14
19:52:31
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
I just tried and like YAPE. I like it. The only problems are that I couldn't get the joystick to work properly, but it worked in Arkanoid +4, and that the colors are a little dull.  When I started using WinVice x64, I created my own color schemes, but that would be hard to do for the Plus4, as it has 121 colors to change. BTW, should I also leave WinVice for C64 emulation? Also, other than WinVice, the only emulator of the C128 of which I know for Windows is Z64k, but it is written in Java, and I assume that means it's slow.
|
|
Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-07-15
04:28:10
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
I took the liberty of updating the User Port Floppy Parallel Cable page with most of the information @Crown provided here, as I don't think it was correct . Can you all please have a look?
On a side note, IMHO there could be a third version of these programs, using the VIA interface described in Compute Mit SA 5/88 (Magazine), page 53 for instance, which could have even taken advantage of the handshake lines.
|
|
|
|
Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-07-15
07:52:48
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
I have noticed that inconsistency too, I have done some research and found out that the two notations are both in widespread use :/. For instance, if you look at the VIA Wikipedia page, you'll see they use CB0/CB1 in the pinout image, then they refer to CB1/CB2 in the text...
I'll add a note to our page at least, thanks for pointing it out.
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-15
08:21:36
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
AAAARG haha. Discard what i said. Godverdomme!
The Datasheet actually calls them CA1/CA2 and CB1/CB2 (and that one is the only thing that counts, right)
Will fix it in VICE accordingly 
Mea Culpa /o\
|
|
|
|
Posted By
MMS
on 2024-07-15
17:00:15
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
@Harry Potter: well, when I had Windows ME I used Plus4Emu. It has a Linux release too. Pretty faithful, especially the sounds. There you can change all the aspects of the display, including saturation and so, though still you cannot change the palette AFAIK. The gfx converter tool provided with that still one of the best (fliconv_gui.exe) with a lot of settings (but the preview (again) looks better than the final result).
As I manly work with gfx, very quickly I found out, that I need to keep the Display setting in default. The picture may look super great on my emulator screen, but the real result (or a real machine) was completely different. That's why my Iron Maiden slideshow looks so bad, I did not recognise with my setting hough raw my pictures are... (at that time I did not have real +4 to test them )
|
|
Posted By
Harry Potter
on 2024-07-15
19:05:04
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
I downloaded it. Thank you. Do I have reason to dump WinVice's C64 and Vic20 emulation as well? BTW, earlier today, I tried some Vic20 games on Version 3.0 MINGL of WinVice and had to switch video standards then switch them back to get the video to work properly, as before, the screen is all the way to the right, and in some games, the screen was all the way to the left. Also, the edge of the text was off the screen.
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-15
19:28:12
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
No, there is no reason to not use x64sc or xvic.
(please let's not derail the thread)
|
|
Posted By
siz
on 2024-07-16
03:11:30
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
@gpz: I've tested the new snapshot build of VICE with my loader's test disk and it seems to be working fine.
|
|
Posted By
Crown
on 2024-07-16
04:20:33
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
There are a number of drive behaviours which are not yet implemented in Vice, check your own TODO list, I assume that Port-Turbo V1 triggers one. As I said its a very advanced fast loader, you haven't seen one like it on C64. It reads a whole track in one go. As soon as a byte is available from the head, it is transferred on the parallel cable and it continues onto the next byte, and does this until a whole track is read and transferred. Then the Plus4 does the GCR decoding, the sector link following, and goes to reading the next track, until the file is loaded.
I will spend some time debugging this in Vice, but it will take some time to setup the environment. Also 8255 is already emulated in Vice, one of the other machines using it. It would help if it got included in xplus4, and the 8255 parallel cable as well. Its mapped at $fe00.
Does anyone have a real setup to test on? 1541 with parallel cable and the userport cable. @siz?
|
|
|
|
Posted By
Krill
on 2024-07-16
08:46:16
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
gpz: Except Transwarp loads a track in one revolution via plain serial cable. =)
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-16
09:39:00
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Also things like 15 seconds Backup (and probably a bunch of other things made for parallel cables)
|
|
Posted By
Crown
on 2024-07-16
10:16:22
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Would any of those run properly on x64 or do they require x64sc in Vice?
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-16
10:26:50
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
x64 has been deprecated for years and is no more included in the official packages for good reasons.
|
|
Posted By
Crown
on 2024-07-16
10:31:10
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
I know that it is deprecated, but xplus4 doesn't yet have an xplus4sc version, so unless the deprecated x64 was able to run these advanced programs, it might be a big waste of time trying to fix this on the deprecated foundations. I'm just trying to figure out whether its worth my time or not.
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-16
10:52:46
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Not sure what you are trying to say - but surely you aren't writing loaders without testing them on the real hardware?
xplus4 has much bigger problems than not using the more exact cpu core for that matter. It barely works at all
|
|
Posted By
Crown
on 2024-07-16
12:53:58
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Figured it out, it works. Just forgot that you need to set the port to #$ff when changing direction, it was some 3x years ago I did this last
The first part of the mod should go like this:
$11f1 lda#$ff
$11f3 sta $fd10
$12be nop
$12bf nop
$12c0 nop
$12d4 lda #$ff
$12d6 sta $fd10
Second part unchanged.
As for xplus4 the change to the "sc" architecture is mandatory, it is futile to try to fix anything in it, before that happens.
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-16
13:09:58
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
I wouldn't insist on that - it might be true for 100% correct video vs cpu timing, but anything else is probably not really affected.
|
|
Posted By
Crown
on 2024-07-16
13:23:54
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Yes 100% correct video vs cpu timing is required, this is unrelated to the disk stuff, but is partly the reason to why you hear the sentiment here "Don't use Vice" and similar phrases.
|
|
Posted By
gpz
on 2024-07-16
13:40:35
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Well, that is mostly not because the timing isn't 100% correct - its because it is 100% broken Most stuff, like the non working "FLI" and "FLD" (however you call those in plus4 world), can probably work just fine with the non-sc code, and would require pretty much the same (or almost identical) fixes for both.
|
|
Posted By
siz
on 2024-07-16
15:22:14
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
@Crown: yes, the plus/4 with a 1541/II and parallel cable plugged in between them sits right next to me (actually to the left )
edit: I've patched Port-Turbo V1 by replacing all $fe03 write to 3 NOPs and all $fe00 references to $fd10 but it gives load error on the real machine too. :(
|
|
Posted By
Crown
on 2024-07-16
15:56:54
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
I've sent you the fixed version in PM.
|
|
Posted By
siz
on 2024-07-18
13:31:39
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
Just tried it: load error
edit: my bad. it seems my parallel cable broke since last test the day before yesterday. :/ I'll fix it and retest. probably not tonight.
edit2: parallel cable working again. And yes the patched Port-Turbo V1 works perfectly.
|
|
|
|
Posted By
siz
on 2024-07-18
14:48:55
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
YaPE had a bug in parallel cable emulation. @Gaia fixed it two days ago but unfortunately not released since then
|
|
Posted By
zzarko
on 2024-07-21
13:35:47
| Re: 1541 modded with parallel cable on Plus/4?
I would like again to thank all of you for your answers! Great community!
|
|
