Posted By
corpsicle
on 2015-02-14
06:25:31
|  Joystick ports broken ?
Hi.
Ive done some more research into my joystick issues.
The joystick works fine, ive tested it with Borays "Contact2" program for c64.
Now i have tested with Memento, since it supports joystick in both ports of the Plus4.
And both ports, with _separate adapters_ show the same issues.
Down works, left works, right seems to do right/up, up seems to do down/left.
down/left works, up/left works, down/right does nothing at all most of the time and SOMETIMES works, up/right does up/right.
Any ideas?
Is some chip broken?
Ive measured the adapters and they seem to be wired correctly.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2015-02-15
11:01:48
 | Re: Joystick ports broken ?
If you know the brand of your stick and fully know it's for C64 then all well and good, however not all sticks and pads that work on a C64 are 100% compatible with the 264 series. The stick might be for an Atari, Amstrad or something else which will cause problems...
If there are any genuine faults with the joyports on a Plus4 it normally means the TED chip is damaged and will need replacing.
The easy way to test the ports is to see what characters print up on the Basic screen it's self. Press Up, Down, Left, Right and again holding Fire down doing the same thing... If any direction prints random garbage on the screen then the TED chip is faulty. If your not sure what each direction should be printing and don't have a spare machine then try a C16/Plus4 emulator such as Yape and set the joystick options to the arrow keys. Joyport 1 & 2 will be a option and you can flick between the two via emulation.
The Joyports in the 264 series are wired directly to the TED chip and are not shielded in any way meaning if you put the wrong type of controller in such as a Megadrive pad and use it then it will cause permanent damage to the joystick controlling side of the chip. Machine code games may fix the fault temporarily but the fault will still be there in the background and sometimes you will feel it stutter as you move in any direction for a while.
Make sure your joystick is 100% compatible first, a proper stick designed to run on a C64 before worrying about changing the TED Chip. Find out the brand, a picture of it's box ect... A good chance it was for C64 as most were but better to check for peace of mind.
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Posted By
corpsicle
on 2015-02-15
10:10:40
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
Ok well this sucks.
I do _not_ get anything like what i get in the emulator.
On the real hardware i get spaces, 2's and some directions makes the cursor go up to top/left corner of the screen.
How is this even possible if the joysticks works at all in games ?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2015-02-15
12:08:46
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
One port should print:
Up=5
Right=6
Down=R
Left=D
Fire=T
The other should print:
Up=3
Right=4
Down=W
Left=A
Fire= (Does not print anything)
Obviously with fire held down it will print different characters, but always the same character for each direction.
If it's anything else then it sounds like the TED chip is faulty. The TED in the Plus/4 is found under the big metal shield in the middle of the board, lift the lid off the shield and your see it.
Ummm. I'm not a coder as such but will try to explain in simple terms why a machine code game makes the joystick work when the TED is faulty yet still functioning for everything else.
Unlike Basic language programmes where you rely on the machine to run a routine in the background when you ask it to do something, why Basic is so slow... Machine code programmes tell the hardware directly what it want's it to do. In a machine code game, every time you press the joystick the code for that function is being resent to the hardware every time as the code for that function is held in ram. Think of a damaged TED as more of a bug. While the joystick commands do make it through and do work when talking directly to the hardware you have this bug trying to upset what's happening so say 1 in every 10 times the joystick code is sent it will not respond correctly.
This is why on the Basic screen and if the TED is faulty it prints random stuff, your using the faulty ROM to do the work for you where a game has the code in RAM and either says Yes/No or Open/Closed to the ROM.
Not that this means anything to your problem..., there are two ways of getting the joysticks to work on a 264 machine. One way is to use the keyboard inputs by using the same characters as the joystick prints, most people address the joyports the proper way... Someone doing something in Basic might use the keyboard inputs to make a joystick work. 
any way enough of my silly reasoning and theory.
If the joysticks are printing random stuff on screen from Basic then the chances are that the TED is faulty and will need to be changed, providing the joystick being used is safe in the first place or else you could repeat the problem and damage the new TED in the same way.
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Posted By
corpsicle
on 2015-02-23
12:37:26
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
Ok thanks, i guess i need to find another TED then.
Thanks a lot foe your help.
*update*
Managed to score a new TED.
Installed it and i get the exact same problem.
Any other ideas ?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2015-02-25
08:33:14
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
There is still the issue of the joystick it's self, still none the wiser to what model it is or what computers it supported originally.
Saying the joystick is fine and so are the TED's, then there is something very unique going on that has never shown up before. Changing the TED is the most obvious one if the joystick is printing random stuff on the screen. Beyond making sure the joystick is fine and changing the TED I can't help any more than what I have already said.
Try unplugging the datasette and any other external devices just in case the problem is a lack of power coming from the PSU to the Plus/4 and try the joystick again.
Maybe unplug the keyboard from the motherboard and try the joystick again just to see if there is any difference?
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Posted By
corpsicle
on 2015-02-25
12:21:22
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
It's a Tac-2 so and I've tested it on my C64 and Amiga.
I've tested unplugging everything but the keyboard.
I could try that I guess.
I'll also try and document exactly what it prints out if that might help in troubleshooting.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2015-02-26
06:31:46
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
If no one has one here then it might be worth asking on Lemon64.com if anyone else has tried or is using a Tac-2 on a C16 or Plus/4. There are a fair amount of people that use them on C64 and also have a C16 or Plus/4 in the collection.
Here is an old advert I found on google showing what computers the Tac-2 supports including Vic20 & C64. On paper it should work... Have you opened the Tac-2 up and seen any components such as a resistor on one of the directions which would be used to protect certain computers. The Cheetah 125+ is one such stick that has this and while it works on a C16/Plus4 the resistor makes the stick pause or lose contact every so often, once the resistor is removed (from the right direction i think it is) the stick works perfect on a C16/Plus4. The Cheetah 125+ is not a minor issue though and does not cause any damage to the machine or TED, it was even sold stating the stick as standard works on C16/Plus4, that resistor is there to protect something though, maybe the grey end that's used on an Amstrad CPC....
http://www.vintagecomputing.com/wp-content/images/retroscan/tac_large.jpg
If some one else can confirm the Tac-2 is safe on a C16/Plus4 then that's a tick off the list for you at least.
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Posted By
Spektro
on 2015-02-26
13:17:29
 | Re: Joystick ports broken ?
I'm using a Tac-2 with my Plus4 and it's working perfectly, no problems at all.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2015-02-27
07:05:46
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
Thanks Spektro, everything now points towards the Plus/4 it's self.
corpsicle,
Normally just changing the TED will sort the problem which also includes dead joyports and even dead keyboards... Really unlucky corpsicle that this has not worked and is more than likely something else. Sorry this has been a complete waste of time, at least you know it's the Plus/4 as you suspected all along. If you manage to fix it it would be nice to know what it was. Sorry again.
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2015-02-27
08:14:19
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
Check the joystick connector (on the Plus/4) for bent pins. Also check the adapter (between the joystick and the Plus/4) to be sure it doesn't have a wiring problem.
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Posted By
corpsicle
on 2015-02-27
09:13:48
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
MIK : hey, you helped me. Even it didn't solve my problem (yet) I'm thankful for that. 
Gonna do some testing over the weekend.
I did measure contiuity in the adapters and everything looked fine. Starting to second guess my measurements now though.
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Posted By
crock
on 2015-02-28
09:17:02
 | Re: Joystick ports broken ?
Just read this thread. If you've ruled out the TED, I would be checking the board around the joystick ports. There is a number of vertically mounted ferrite beads which are easily bent. Check none of them are touching the board or each other.
Rob.
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Posted By
corpsicle
on 2015-03-01
12:54:50
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
Ok this is what i get:
Up= new line
Right= 2
Down= goes to the upper left corner
Left= space
Fire= D*wierdL*"*
I looked at the ferrite beads (im guessing they are the tiny black cylinders that sit on wires) and they are sure bent here and there.
I made sure they arent touching each other and it still doesn't work.
Possibly my messing around made the joystick movements write an 1 occasionally, but thats still not right. =)
One of them had a little green in one of its ends, does that mean its broken somehow? Can these things "leak" like capacitors ?
**edit**
One wierd thing i guess is that both joystickports give pretty much the same readout on the basic screen.
Except that fire on joystick 2 gives "Q".
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Posted By
Dean7878
on 2015-03-02
17:41:05
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
It sounds like the problem is your adapter. When you see '2', 'Q' or the cursor jumps to 'HOME', you've most likely connected the GND lines together instead of connecting the Select line.
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Posted By
corpsicle
on 2015-03-03
13:44:19
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
I got the adapters from these fellas: http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/cool-novelties
Does anyone know if their adapters usually work ?
Ill measure mine again tonight.
** edit **
WELL WELL WELL
Wouldnt you know.
GND was connected to GND.
I swapped it over to pin 8 (select) and now both adapters work fine. =)
Thanks so much for everyones help and Dean7878 in particular!
Im now going to enjoy my first session of Pacmania on my plus4.
AND i have two spare TED's so i can be more reckless in my ebay purchases.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2015-03-03
19:15:50
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
The seller has sold 127 C16/Plus4 joystick adapters... 
Cut the number in half and that must mean around 64 machines with dodgy joystick adapters. Maybe each one is hand made by means of adding the C16/Plus4 end and human error intervened soldering some? This problem has never shown up before, on this forum any way of actual adapters being at fault... Crazy though it's happened and really bad luck it did!
Really cool the problem is finally fixed though and all TED's are alive and well. Always handy having spares when your messing about with the real thing. Good result all round.
Just remember it's Port 1 for all Shaun Southern games with Pacmania being one of them, sometimes FIRE and UP to get them started. The other one that's easy to remember is Udo Gertz, Port 2 for all of his lol.
Enjoy your fully working Plus/4 setup and of course Pacmania!! 
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Posted By
corpsicle
on 2015-03-03
23:19:46
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
I got a reply from "cool novelties" really quick and they say its a manufacturing issue on this batch, which could be true i guess.
I got a 10% discount on my next purchase. =)
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Posted By
MIK
on 2015-03-04
08:26:21
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
At least no permanent damage was done.
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Posted By
corpsicle
on 2015-03-04
10:27:26
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
Yea i guess it could have gotten way worse depending on how wrong it was wired.
Also thanks a lot for the games info.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2015-03-05
04:53:38
| Re: Joystick ports broken ?
While I remember, there is one more bit of info worth adding to this topic related to C16/Plus4 adapters for anyone else reading in the feature.
It's rare to come across one but if ever you do... Some joystick adapters have a short connection end going into the joyport, some people have found a joystick may not work at all. The way to sort this is to cut the plastic back to show more of the connector to get a better contact with the pins inside the joyport. Again though, this is not something that comes up very often.
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2020-08-11
00:06:19
 | Re: Joystick ports broken ?
Bump!
Glad I searched and found this thread. I am having the exact same issue with both ports on my 64k C16, the exact same garbage is coming up on the screen as I move the joystick in either port as corpsicle described. I had to resort playing The Pit with keyboard as the joystick was doing some weird stuff, yet I tested Ikari Warriors and that was fine. I suppose that game doesn’t rely on any keyboard input though.
Now I need to figure out the solution given. Thankfully it appears that my chips and both joystick adapters are fine anyway after reading this. So, I need to open up my C16 and look for bent pins on the board? Ack! I do not trust myself messing around with components as I’m not tech-savvy enough, but seems I have no choice but to try. I’m going to need a bit of an idiot guide here guys, lol. What’s GND?
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