Re: Árok 2014 Thank you very much for this detailed answer. TED uses ROM data by default! Bit 2 of $ff12 selects RAM/ROM for bitmap, and $ff3e/$ff3f selects RAM/ROM for attributes. My emulator can't take attributes from ROM. It is a bit wrong for me that TED sound is ignored. TED is not bad to play a digital stream... It is not easy to implement sound with FLI format. Maybe even impossible - all 44-45 CPU cycles for two raster lines usually occupied by FLI magic. But 8 Khz digital sound only requires about 150 bytes per frame and 5 cycles of CPU per line.
Re: Árok 2014 1) The graphic screen data (8000 bytes) surely can be in ROM. I'm not certain about the colour and luminance matrices (2*2000 bytes) but even if it's not possible there is a way. 2) No. It was written that the 12 bit DAC of the micro-controller was used. 3) Probably 512k was decided by other factors than design or necessity, like that's what BSZ had lying around or it was part of a developer board that he was using. Anyway, the deeper buffers you have the better for smoothing performance fluctuation. 4) No idea. Only BSZ could tell if anyone. Usually he's not posting here, but feel free to send him an e-mail.
Re: Árok 2014 Sorry only the Xmas holidays gave me the opportunity to meet with Evo Lution. Evo Lution turns C+4 into a media player!!! I am sure that the sensations viewing, e.g., Hobbit movie with it, will be astonished. However I do not understand several things: 1) Is TED capable to show picture from ROM? 2) Is TED used to produce sound? 3) Is the 512 KB RAM amount a necessity or 32 KB for two frames is enough? 4) What is the cost of all hardware parts? IMHO it is less than 20$. Please help to satisfy my curiosity. Thanks in advance.
Re: Árok 2014 Update: both BSZ and Stinky did a write-up about the demo, I just added it to the Evo Lution page. Sorry, but it's Hungarian only at the moment
Messenger of the masters (siz) already said how it works. They stream the - of course - pre-converted video from a Compact Flash card and map it into expansion ROM space. The original hardware runs a "simple" displaying programme that selects the - let's assume - bitmap and colour matrices into the given expansion ROM area and probably signals vertical retrace for the extension to flip screen buffers.
Edit: I forgot this. There is no DMA, at least in the sense you seem to imply, in the 264 series machines. You may build one; there are free pins on the expansion port after all, but you need to do hardware modifications in the computer. Or you may try, with insane trickery, emulate one using the BA pin.
Re: Árok 2014 the masters will tell the secret, but i suppose the video could be preconverted, and with DMA the hardware (extermal fast) was mapped and was shown from $1800 onwards.plussy alone cannot change the content of 10kb bitmap 10times, but can show a mapped memory that is loaded from SD and updated with an external HW.
Yes, it's very hard to see what the player is doing. I tried Dragon's Lair demo in the late 80's and it was a very hard game. I didn't like it at all, besides the graphics
Re: Árok 2014 I remember Dragon's Lair (well, reading about it in Commodore mags back in the day). The term "gameplay" is a bit generous Sure, it's beautiful, but watching the video you have no idea what the player is actually doing. It's basically "press the right button at the right time" (and watch the movie).
But otherwise, the idea isn't bad, and my guess would be that this should be doable with the existing tech. It just means a longer recorded sequence (to account of all the deaths/dead ends), simple keyboard handling, plus the logic to jump around in the sequence as needed.
I wonder if it's possible to make a Dragon's Lair type game for the BSZ's expansion card. Dragon's Lair used a pre-recorded video (played from a laserdisc) for the graphics.
Re: Árok 2014 Taking a quick glance at the screen-shots I couldn't really decide if it is normal multicolour or DFLI MC, but motion makes things usually looking significantly better than the still frames.
Re: Árok 2014 Stinky made a promise that he will write some short description by the end of this week. I was curious of the video mode because it looks unbelievably fantastic.
Re: Árok 2014 Evo Lution: this is my shit a fantastic technical breakthru (kind of DMA I suppose), and very nice warmup to show a real evolution even within the demo. Nice
I seriously hope that you didn't mean me at all when you said that about the great minds. In my case it is much more what we hungarians call "vak tyúk is talál szemet". (For those without command of the hungarian language this is a phrase expressing that one may have luck even with very slim chances.)
Re: Árok 2014 @Csabo Yeah I regret I wasn't able to finish the +4 pic for Arok this year. I even started to do one but I was unhappy with the result, so I stopped.
Unreal's picture is amazing. I even did a c+4 conversion of his pic (with lots of green colors ) for my own fun, so I'm curious what Unreal will do about it for C+4.
Next year I'll do an Arok entry and, who knows, maybe win again This year my main party is of course X'14 but also Silly Venture - YUP! I'll do Atari compo pic for first time. Expect some +4 converts of these two.
Re: Árok 2014 Igazából az volt a durva, hogy egyáltalán nem akadt semmilyen szinten. Ami a mai gépekről - szinte - egyáltalán nem mondható el. Még ez a youtube video is akad, ha nézem, hiába a sok magos pc, meg a giga sebesség. Bár lehet a videokonvertálás bitrata-ja miatt lehet, de a lényegen ez nem változtat.
Szóval így tube-n is üt, de eredetiben egész egyszerűen meghökkentő. BSZ! Szét ne szedd azt a hardvert!
Re: Árok 2014 What was truly amazing is that nothing glitched, in any sense. This - almost - cannot be said for today's machines. Even the YouTube video gets stuck sometimes when I watch it, regardless of the many-cored processors and giga speeds. Maybe it's because of the video conversion's bitrate, but that doesn't change my point.
So this way it even beats YouTube, but the original is simply shocking. BSZ! Don't you dare take apart that hardware
This is unbelievably strange. Two-three days before Árok came the idea into my mind that one could make an upgrade for the 264 series that renders the visuals into expansion ROM space and the original machine only has to display it. Then came this Evo Lution marvel and you say that it works just like something I managed to imagine up for myself just a few days ago. First the full in the face astonishing cool demo, than the joy of managing to figure out something feasible without any kind of electronics and computer system design knowledge and that's how the smart guys are doing it too. It was a weird experience.
Re: Árok 2014 I've already asked Stinky to write about the technical details of the demo. From what I've talked to BSz at Árok: the hardware started as a prototype mass storage device for the TCBM bus but became a demonstration board temporarily. It's built on an 8BitBaby (a prototype card with plus/4/C64/VIC20/and perhaps AppleII? edge connectors). It contains a 12bit DAC for the sound and maps image data to one of the expansion ROM slots so you don't have to transfer the data into plus/4 RAM.
Re: Árok 2014 How is it done? Well, all we know at this point is "with special hardware". BSZ probably has more info, hopefully it'll make it to the site soon (or eventually).
Re: Árok 2014 carrion: BSZ built a custom expansion card. i don't have a photo sadly, but its a prototype card, like a sandwitch, kinda big connects to the normal expansion slot of a stock commodore plus4 ! You can run the animation and the music from a compact flash card. Thats all i know for know, i hope BSZ will be there soon to explain the technical aspects..
Luca, i will upload somewhere the video as downloadable, its right?? :D
Re: Árok 2014 I spelled it right (check your email please) Thanks for the results, Chronos. I think the pics were scored unfairly, but hey, what can you do?
Re: Árok 2014 No group photo has been made.. i forgot it sry.. Körte is a friend of Crafty! Yes, it was a really nice challenge to catch TLC
this guy https://plus.google.com/photos/101241926004572497077/albums/6038159340365018385/6038160301003679074?pid=6038160301003679074&oid=101241926004572497077 is bszgg!
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Here you have the official results: remix: 1. Traz / Chabee (209pts) 2. Prallax / Necropolo (192pts) music: 1. Raid Over Germany / Celtic Design (180pts) 2. Lumina / Luxoid (176pts) 3. Commodore from hell / Necropolo (169pts) graphics: 1. Lunch time / Unreal (202pts) 2. Cloud nine / Leon (170pts) 3. Hey fish / Reekol (82pts) 4. Cave of secrets / JSL (79pts) 5. Abstractum animalis / AMN (61pts) 6. Mechfight / Grass (55pts) 7. Partyland revisited / Chronos (22pts) demo: 1. Afterglow / Absence (186pts) 2. Riverwash 6 invitation / Sebaloz (152pts) wild: 1. Lasershow / Viti (190pts) 2. Animation on plus4 + extra hw (184pts) 3. Video on creation of the party t-shirt / Blasternox (124pts) 4. Colorline / LAL (117pts) cover: 1. Vivat Finlandia / Reekol You can check results of our adventure game at http://arok.intro.hu/ . Downloads coming soon (by the time you can find most of the C64 releases at http://csdb.dk/ ).
Re: Árok 2014 Wow, 14 Plus/4 sceners, that is a massive turnout.
Thanks for the pics, Uncle Króna - my heart aches for a group photo though Oooh, Sizmon V3.1 *drool* I see that Csio has a nice tan and I think Grass slimmed down a little. I also see that despite his best efforts to cover his face, you managed to snap some good pics of TLC maestro! Nice to see Moldi as well (wow, it's been 3 years since Busodore, and your stuff is still not online... argh!). It's so good to see you all, wish I could have been there.
Quick questions: who is Körte? Which pics have bszggg on them (since I've never met him)?
Crafty is a cool dude indeed! I don't know if he remembers this.. But on a party in Szeged, Tom of LOD and me started spontaneously beatboxing and he laid down some cool rhymes! And I believe Nukeman videotaped this. What I wouldn't give to get a copy of that... Oh the memories
Re: Árok 2014 Confirmed: the presence of Crafty around is the biggest motivation to start learning Hungarian, I remember he was surrounded of sceners even at 4Ever 2004!
Re: Árok 2014 It was a great great party! Were heading home right now, im typing in the car..seriously exhausted but in good mood! You can expect the package soon but i need first some food and sleep ..and i want to made an official conversion of Unreal's piccy (i've the legal rights )
Re: Árok 2014 Wow, didn't expect this very limited demo compo...but hurray for Absence's Afterglow! And not to be forgotten, there are two entries in the gfx compo, by Grass and Chronos. The traitor medal goes to...Unreal, which has joined the compo with a C64 pic
Re: Árok 2014 OK, so I turned that on... Some wild compo. Nice 3D 50 fps animations and music. Meh, some PC or Amiga. So it ends... and it was a Plus/4, modded by BSZ Mind. Blown.
Re: Árok 2014 Us lowly sceners who cannot attend are anxiously awaiting any news you guys can provide... Now make with the releases, reports and photos
Re: Árok 2014 I want to be there and until the beginning of the last week I was sure that I can make it. But we have a very serious deadline and most probably I have to work during the weekend.
Re: Árok 2014 no, only unreleased pic or demoeffect plays right now. we are wire it to our demo.. complete part is also welcomed but we reserve the rights to replace the gfx/music in it to fit the concept!
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!COME TO AROK! HEYHEY! !!!You can experience a commodore plus4 demoshow at friday!!!
Re: Árok 2014 Mmm it's not very clear yet... Are you seeking for complete parts, and gfx/msx contributes too? Anyway, you still have the final version of the Monarchy logo that Csio had released in the uncomplete stage
Re: Árok 2014 You're right Luca! We decided to make a demo to Arok, but we don't have much freetime, so it will be something "recycled" (something new, something old). If anybody have some unreleased effect or any other contribution we will include it in our demo (if it hits the quality standards, and with credit of course). so just dig it
Re: Árok 2014 I'm taking a trip to Hungary this year, but I'll be there two weeks earlier. So, no Arok for me this year unfortunately. But I'd be up for some coop work in a demo, at the moment it seems like July is so long away
Re: Árok 2014 Oh, if it is going to be on the first weekend of July, I won't be able to get there, because I will be at the Lincolnshire Amiga Group meeting on Saturday and the Amiga North Thames meeting on Sunday.
Both meetings in England, Robert Bernardo Fresno Commodore User Group http://videocam.net.au/fcug
Re: Árok 2014 I don't know if I'm coming yet. But the oldest scener... that's an interesting question! Are you thinking Pigmy? On that note (not sure if we've already covered this once), what is the oldest Hungarian demo?
Re: Árok 2014
It was indeed very, very cool stuff, I love re-watching it once in a while.
However I do not understand several things:
Mind. Blown.