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| | Previous Messages | Posted By
Litwr
on 2012-11-24
10:18:52
|  Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
It looks like mentioned by MMS document by link
http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/funet/cbm/documents/projects/interfaces/plus4joy/plus4joy.html
contains a typo. It says that we should connect pin 8 (select) of plus4 joyport with pin 7 (+5V) of c64 joystick. Later it says that select wire should be connected with GND (pin 8 of c64 joystick?). So it looks like proper connection is 8 -> 8 not 7 -> 8. Is it right?
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Posted By
SVS
on 2012-06-18
08:39:24
 | Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
There is existing a TED protection card, somewhere.
It allows the warm plug/unplug of joystick and other features.
I remember it was created by Solder, drop a look at:
here
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-06-18
07:58:01
 | Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
Hans,
Is this any use to you? I have one of these and works fantastic, (USB).
http://keio.dk/retroadapter.html
You can build your own, half way down the page.
Awseome with YAPE and have used this for years with it and still do.
Tested my self:
Competition Pro, Technoplus Swift, Zipstick, 3 & 6 Button Sega Megadrive pads & arcade stick and even Sega Saturn pad with an adapter add on. "B" is fire on the Sega pads for the old Commodore once they have been set up within the emu's ect...
Plug and Play. Windows picks it up and installs Retro Adapter driver and with in seconds your using the real sticks and pads on PC!
Not sure about getting hold of the components to build your own, but have a look any way. Might lead you to something else.
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Posted By
Hans
on 2012-06-18
04:28:35
| Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
My question feeds into the subject from the other side:
I'm quite happy with my Comp pro stick (C64 plug with C16/116/Plus4 round adaptor).
I take serious, however, MIK's warnings regarding the missing protection of the TED chip. If something goes wrong (faulty wire / short circuit inside the youstick or else), the TED may be blown.
For that reason, I prefer to play games rather in an emu than engaging the poor plussy too hard.
Does anybody here have an idea how to build an adaptor for a Plus/4 - C64 joystick to be connected to the PC?
I have a PC with the more or less obsolete gameport which is a 15-pin D-sub female socket (gold colour). The machine also is equipped with an LPT parallel port (25-pin D-sub female, amber colour) as well. The PC is some 8 years old.
I'm aware of some C64-Joystick to PC USB connector solution but this seems to be out of my budget and way too complicated.
Mrs. Google didn't find anything for me so far.
Regards,
Hans.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-05-21
19:25:41
| Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
As an example and this is fact looking at the Atari pinout.
C16 Pin 7 = Ground
Atari Pin 7 = +5V
C16 Pin 8 = Select
Atari Pin 8 = Ground
Sega Master System pads are almost correct, but Ground is on pin 8 which is Select on C16 and C16 pin 7 Ground is not connected on Master System pad.
Sega Meagdrive pad, Select and Ground are around the wrong way to C16. If anything I was stupid to use this as it does a lot more adding buttons B & C even if I got away with it for years.
You can already see how 9pin pads from different computers or consoles are not correct in the wiring.
NES pin 1 = +5v, on C16 pin 1 is UP.
If I'm not mistaken the NES Advantage will need some special hardware in the adapter to work with a C16. There is no Up, Down, Left, Right, Fire ect...
Link: http://pinouts.ru/Game/snescontroller_pinout.shtml
I better add, yes you could convert a NES Advantage to work as a C64 joystick in theory but you would need to know exactly what your doing. Maybe a new board would be needed with the layout of how a C64 joystick is wired up.
How about a C16 or a Plus/4 case but it plugs into your PC via USB.
The keyboard and joy ports all work and you control Yape with this USB C16 or Plus/4 Keyboard just as if it was the real thing. You would never kill a C16 or Plus4 again YEAH! 
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Posted By
MMS
on 2012-05-21
18:17:09
 | Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
Thanks for the post! good info, but still do not get: does it hurt Plussy to connect a converted NES Advantage? Or a C64 type QuickshotII with Autofire? Seems not... But they why SO MANY C16 failed?
I suppose very few people tried out hacked special keypads/joysticks or anything other than C64 joysticks...
There was one discussion on the overheat of the TED, and Levente installed a very brute ZX Spectrum alu heatsink on the head of the TED, I told "it is sparta"... but could be an other defect cause too, if any evidence is there...
On the other side it is sad, that due to this weakness (only this one?) C16 and Plussies tend to die earlier than C64 brothers, not to mention the quantity we have on the market. SID card may also help, if the DB9 port is simulating the original ports, but cannot directly hurt TED any more.
I think we badly need soon something similar to C64 DTV with hackable (or factory prepared) keyboard and serial connection... preferably with a SID implementation  (though DTV has a little distorted sound)
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-05-21
16:19:18
| Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
Cheers MMS this is good!
Partly done but I can see the problem.
A properly wired joystick for the 264's that should come from a C64 really if the adapter has been wired for that is such ones as Sixteen Plus, Luca and C16 Chris are using regardless of Auto Fire. It will run all day.
As I knew... yes it's wired directly to TED and he goes on to say, "TED is not well protected against peaks and high currents". Meaning any joystick or gamepad not suited to the wiring of your adapter can cause the TED to fail, it's that easy to kill it.
That mean's Atari 2600 joysticks are no good and are asking for trouble as they are wired a little differently with the Power & GND. Looks like they really tried hard to improve the idea on the way joysticks work adding a port Select, but being this advanced is how you kill the TED with joysticks & pads that may cross wire what 264's are looking for. Maybe there is a limit to how much TED can take before it goes but I think it's obvious Auto Fire or not the pad/stick was not suited to the C64-264 adapter. I don't use Auto-Fire and my C16 messed up!
He does also go into detail of how to build a better adapter covering more than just C64 using a switching gate, but this is beyond me.
I will just have to use the right tools!
A very good article on the ports which says in black & white: DON'T MESS WITH THE 
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Posted By
C16 Chris
on 2012-05-21
14:28:48
 | Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
I use a joypad with auto fire since 1991 with my /4 and have no problems.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2012-05-21
13:51:31
| Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
I think there was a rather good article on the topic from Levente Hársfalvi about the C16 / Plus/4 joystick and TED personal life.
http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/funet/cbm/documents/projects/interfaces/plus4joy/plus4joy.html
I do not read it through again, but if I remember well, the problem starts if the external device (joy) needs it's own power, not behave like a simple short circuit. Comes from totem pole or what (sorry, I am not a HW guy )
Maybe I am wrong, but this topic was mentioned on Bill Herd's video message too, as a short notice on design issues on Plus/4.
On the other side, there is a good article, how to transfer a NES Advantage (told to be one of the best robust joys) to C64 and even Plussy pin layout is included. Great and easy
(In fact I bid to a NES advantage few months back, but it became too expensive, so I dropped the idea)
Certainly: do not use the autofire !
http://yupferris.blogspot.com/2010_01_01_archive.html
Back to Levente's warning: NO AUTOFIRE on Joy, then it should be all right for Plussy.
I do not know, if feedback LEDs counts here or not...
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-05-20
17:17:32
| Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
Maybe it's a different stick if both you and Luca have had no issues at all. That is a great sign of the stick it's self if it has lasted this long with no faults.
I'm sure there were 3 settings of auto fire with the one he had, normal and crazy.
I've talked about it before way, way back in the past deep, deep in this forum but finding that could take ages... Sorry for the scare just for saying it was blue! 
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2012-05-20
16:53:16
 | Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
Yeah the little switch at the bottom is auto-fire. It worked perfectly good on the C64, although my auto-fire switch was stuck when I bought it second hand so never really got to use it. The stick in general however is fantastic, it is a digital joystick, no flimsy analogue connectors so maybe that makes a difference, not sure. I had no problem with it myself but I did wear mine out, my C64 is fine though. I really only used it with that at the time.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2012-05-20
16:49:18
 | Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
I used the Navigator on my Plus/4 for years, no damages 
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-05-20
16:43:49
| Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
It could well be that stick as I just remember seeing something blue. Sorry for bad memory.
Does it have some fancy auto fire switch, not just On/Off? I believe it could of been the auto fire regardless that messed the TED up. Normal use would be fine I'm sure.
If it's made for C64 I can't see it harming the C16 or Plus/4, but it's auto fire could be a different story. The guy told me he was hammering auto fire with some game when it went any way.
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2012-05-20
16:33:37
| Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
MIK wrote:
Turned out he had been using some fancy joystick which had a number of different types of Auto- Fire. I think it was made more for the Amiga era, but obviously this thing was pining the life out of the port and messed the TED up. All I did was take the TED out of a spare plus/4 that was given to me as a dead machine and he was rolling again. I told him NOT to use it on the Plus/4 ever again!
I think it was some blue thing you held in one hand like a gun with the stick on the top, I can't remember the stick to be honest but it was not your average one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Could you be talking about the Konix Navigator? That's my favourite stick. I was wanting to get another.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-05-20
16:32:53
| Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
Sorry for the long message!
A friend of friend asked me to have a look at his Plus/4 about 12 years ago, maybe just before this. His joyports did not work at all and was forced to use the keyboard.
Turned out he had been using some fancy joystick which had a number of different types of Auto- Fire. I think it was made more for the Amiga era, but obviously this thing was pining the life out of the port and messed the TED up. All I did was take the TED out of a spare plus/4 that was given to me as a dead machine and he was rolling again. I told him NOT to use it on the Plus/4 ever again!
I think it was some blue thing you held in one hand like a gun with the stick on the top, I can't remember the stick to be honest but it was not your average one.
Ever since then I have been very nervous about what I plug in to the Plus/4.
To tell you the truth I have been using Sega MegaDrive pads for years, "B" is FIRE and all looks ok on both Plus4 & Amiga... but get this -> On C64 using the Megadrive pad and the Cartridge game Navy Seals the C64 locks up. It does not like the pad and messed the machine when other game were fine! So ever since then I will not use an MD pad on a C64.
A couple of weeks ago I fired my C16 up, first time in a long while and playing games with my Son having a laugh. A couple of days in I had pressed the joystick by accident on the C16's welcome screen and it printed up random characters all over the screen. Both ports were now printing random characters all over the screen even tho the C16 was good to play games using these bad ports...
GUTTED another TED was messed up anyway!!!
In that time I had used my Competition Pro, Zip Stick, 3 & 6 Button Sega Megadrive pads, Atari 2600 stick and this pad called a Technoplus Swift normally used on an Atari ST this Swift pad...
I'm sure one of these bitches damaged the TED chip. I have since replace the TED and have a very nice C16 up and running again. I have also used my Competition Pro & Zip Stick as in order, made for C64 and then Amiga. Running lovely!!!
As you can imagine I am scared to plug anything else into it. Could it of been the 2600 or the Technoplus, was it the MegaDrive pads that did the damage in the end...
When you have a Son who is used to XBOX 360 pads and keeps moaning I don't like this stick or this pad then that's how you end up digging out everything you have just to play Squirm lol.
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Posted By
retroscener
on 2012-05-20
15:34:04
| Re: Joysticks & Joypads questions.
I'm no expert on the techy side, so I never considered if standard joysticks could damage the TED. I'd like to know this too as I use a standard Competion Pro and some weird stick from a company called Suncom.
If we use a joystick which uses the standard Atari connecter ports (with obviously an adaptor), does it risk the TED chip?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2012-05-20
13:49:16
| Joysticks & Joypads questions.
Is it safe to use an Atari 2600 joystick and other make sticks & pad for Atari computers on C16 & Plus/4.
My biggest nightmare is TED, it's that easy to kill TED via the joyports. However I believe the power on Atari machines is wired differently to the joyports and it may not be safe to use these in case something is being sent down the wrong wire...?
I know they work on Amiga, but the Amiga is more geared up an can't really be damaged in the same way as TED.
I guess yes is not good enough, just wondering if anyone knows of how the wiring works and/or any long term damage it may or may not do.
Or is it just a case if TED is going to mess up, it's going to happen regardless?
Cheers,
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