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| | Previous Messages | Posted By
MIK
on 2021-08-27
05:10:31
 |  Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
Yeah C64 & Vic20 Vice are great and has been around what feels like forever. Sadly the C16/Plus4 side of Vice is a more recent thing so is many years behind in terms of time having been spent tweaking it, more likely down to a lack of people willing to take the challenge on. It's a shame as the The C64 Maxi that came out a few years back that also has Vic20 would of had C16/Plus4 support if things were different as it runs on Vice. 
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Posted By
orion70
on 2021-08-27
04:06:29
 | Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
Thanks so much @Luca for your quick answer.
I managed to get it working in YAPE  with 1551 full CPU compatibility mode, and could see tha the uIEC compatibility/fast mode won't work in the emulator, so I still have to find a 1551 in the wild, sell one of my kidneys in the deep web, and buy it. I guess I'll limit my shopping to just ONE drive, as I need at least one kidney.
My German isn't so good I'm afraid, so I'll drop a line to JamesC if I'll ever get my hands on a real 1551.
As for possibly having a working SD2IEC version at some point in the future, ain't it be possibile for some software wizard to just... DISEMBED the 1551 turbo from it? This would open a whole new world to Plus/4 users alla over the world, finally filling a gap 
@MIK: agree, I just didn't know it was so superior to VICE (which is almost perfect for the C64, and more than OK for the VIC and PET).
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Posted By
MIK
on 2021-08-26
12:57:04
| Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
When it comes to C16/Plus4 emulation Yape for the WIN, Vice in the BIN. 
Seriously though, if you want the best there is at this point in time go with Yape.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2021-08-26
11:51:08
 | Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
Hello Orion70!
1) The German version you actually mean Well, VICE still offers a mediocre Plus/4 emulation (prefer YAPE instead), and a SD2IEC is not an equivalent of a disk drive, but just a mere storage deice, wheread a disk drive is a machine apart, with its own processor. Your German copy of GEOS will work on a real 1551, or a decent emulator like YAPE and plus4emu;
2) Ok, this should works as follows: the German version has been made by a passionate user, and being quite different in the code has to be considered as tolerated, also because it looks like a conversion of what M&T had acquired at the time from the original owners, and probably it could be seen mainly as a matter of the German distributor itself; for what concerns the English version, let's confirm what JamesC said;
3) Ah yep, it uses a 1551 turbo embedded in the main program, and if I remeber how the thing runs, you should better need TWO 1551 drives
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Posted By
orion70
on 2021-08-26
09:48:05
| Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
Hi all, and thanks (as usual) for bringing forward the great Plus/4 machine.
Upping this old thread, because I recently stumbled upon the GEOS for P/4 in your website. I don't fiddle much with this computer, being mostly a VIC enthusiast.
I really can't get the whole picture. Many questions rise:
1) The GEOS M&T English version (3.5) is downloadable from plus4world, but I can't get it to work, neither on the VICE emu, nor on a real machine with SD2IEC. Do I understand right that it may be due to P/4 GEOS working only with a real 1551 drive?
2) How the freely available download connects with the SVS/JamesC agreement that one has to provide a picture of his C64 GEOS diskette before have his (electronically marked?) copy of P/4 GEOS? Maybe this is an "authorized" copy which possibly runs flawlessly even on a SD2IEC or an emulated Plus/4?
3) [In case the answers to previous points are affirmative] - How could it be that no one was able to convert GEOS to a fully usable, SD2IEC compatible version for the Commodore Plus/4, much in the fashion of the ones available for the 64 (e.g. https://www.lyonlabs.org/commodore/onrequest/geos/index.html - even in a great D81 including all main apps)? Do the M&T disk(s) present with particular technical issues preventing a full conversion?
Sorry for being a complete noob in this, but I dusted off my old Plus/4 recently, and would really LOVE to see the GEOS on the screen
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Posted By
MMS
on 2019-10-11
15:43:53
 | Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans... GEOS 3.5x + mouse
@GeTE
If you refer this document. It is made by me.
It is based on BSZGG's design, but he made no ENGLISH documentation (corr), he had a prototype and a Hungarian description
I though it is a great concept and wanted to create one based on it anyone can easily build.
So I made what I am good at: searching on the internet and make loooooong documentation.
On the other hand I found one you can buy it ready, I am confident it has the same Max232 circuit inside (this is the de facto standard for TTL/RS232 conversion), but it will cost you 18Pount +postage. and certainly still no driver for Plus/4:
https://www.simulant.uk/shop/Commodore64-Commodore128-User-Port-to-rs232-Adaptor-C64-C128-to-9-Pin-Serial
As explained previously, the C64 User port seems to behave the same as the Plus/4 one for serial communication.
I did not choose the PS/2 protocol, because it has different versions, in special modes much higher communication speed required than the RS232 ones, and the wheel/3rd button makes the protocol even more complicated.
Nice black mouse what you found!
My choice for Plus/4 mouse is a blue Microsoft mouse, because it has a less rounded design, the third in the list (I bought the second IBM RS232 mouse, but looks a little too bulky)
https://oldcomputer.info/pc/apmice/index2.htm
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Posted By
SVS
on 2019-10-10
09:20:38
 | Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans... - GEOS +4
Since in this post it is spoken about the Plus/4 GEOS, I want to take this opportunity to clarify the current situation. This because I'm not sure that you all know the correct info.
Years ago I made an English version of M&T colored GEOS version for Plus4. JamesC, after viewing and testing it, tried to contact current owner of trademarks and was so able to obtain a great result. In spite the marks still were under copyright we were authorized to deliver a legal copy of it to anyone who has a legal copy of GEOS 2.0 (C64 version).
So, even today, if someone wants a legal copy, I'm available to do it and send it to him (for free). Just contact me for details.
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Posted By
GeTE
on 2019-10-10
09:07:27
| Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
Complete new peripherical hardware should - in my opinion - not beeing build from very old crap. There never was a RS232-mouse for the plus/4-userport until today, even a working driver. Nevertheless I posted the PDF with the idea above. The question I ask is, could that be altered to plug a PS/2-mouse to the user port (that might not be that different than an USB-mouse).
I searched the web and found one PS/2-mouse on the market, that can be bought new until today ... and it is black like the 264er and has no batch or label *:
https://perixx.com/lt_furniture_3/catalog/product/view/id/435/s/perixx-perimice-201pii-wired-ps2-optical-mouse-3-button-1000dpi-resolution-1-8m-cable/category/336/
What about trying to connect this one to the plus/4-userport and perhabs building an interface smal enough to be put into the mouse itself? A small production rund from one of the shops, like sharewareplus, will sure find its customers, I think. Especially when a driver for GEOS (might that be GEOS 3.54?) comes up short after from one of the programming-heros, who are around on this site.
* Please let me know if there is another new PS/2-mouse somewhere available (but please, no more buttones than Micromys or a possible userport-interface are able to support)
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Posted By
MMS
on 2019-10-09
14:45:37
| Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
Both your proposal may work.
1) 1351 mouse can be done via SID card.
Actually the original first GEOS did not support analog mouse, only the later versions. BTW the original 1351 mouse had a disc, on the second side it was the GEOS driver to upgrade GEOS to 1.3 (it was the main version change)
Disc content is here (I do not have it, but surely the D64 available somewhere)
https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Mouse_1351
AFAIK the main issue here that the original C64 SID register's are putting the mouse ($d419 and $d41a) while the SID card is putting it to $FD82 and $FD83.
On the other hand there is a small chance no conversion is needed(...)
The SID card can be put into "legacy mode" (pushing both RESET buttons at the same time), then the SID card operates at original $D400 address. The original GEOS mouse driver expects to read the paddle position from here, so coping and activating the C64 GEOS driver to the Plus/4 GEOS (like: updating C64 GEOS to v1.3), then putting the SID card to legacy mode the driver can read the mouse coordinates.
Unfortunately it is not probable it will work so easily. The POX and POTY registers need to be read out regularly, so if the driver using some CIA timers or raster time for the reading, then it will not run on Plus/4. Also it expects, that the Plus/4 GEOS do not use than memory address where the SID Card operates now ($D400)
On this page you can find a resident driver assembly code for C64 mouse driver.
You can slightly modify it and test the SID Card's behaviour with an 1351.
Unfortunately I do not own such a C= mouse, otherwise I would already do that.
Certainly sprite in the code will not work, but eg. dividing XPOS and XPOS values by 8 (ROR 3x) you may get the character position (40x25) and if you write it directly into the cursor position of the machine, you can control the cursor position with the mouse on the screen during BASIC editing (same way as Plus4Emu handles PC mouse)
https://www.commodore.ca/manuals/funet/cbm/manuals/1351-mouse.txt
2) RS232 mouse: the reading and decoding of that PC serial mouse is different and more complex than the 1351 (just getting the coordinate from SID).
Buying a ready Max232 circuit and connecting to user port makes the connection easy. The HW is the easy part.
Currently there is no driver, and the version I have is too big to put into zero page, and has a bug (breaking), but can share it with you.
It is not GEOS, but a core of a resident driver with a lot of bitmovement, but it needs a better programmer than me to be finished. There is a BASIC sample how can be used. But the code it much longer than the above linked one. (and does not work :-) )
3) worth to read Levente's PC serial mouse interface
http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/documents/projects/interfaces/mouse/Mouse.html
It does not really help on Plus/4 scene (as still reqiore POTX, POTY inputs on the joystick port), but it is a very detailed one
It looks to be similar function as Micromys PS/2 mouse adapter (simulates an 1351 on C64 joy port)
https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/de/shop/product/micromys-v5.html
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2019-10-09
10:18:40
| Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
This forum is open to the public - we wanted to remove all barriers of entry. You have anything Plus/4 related to say? You can post immediately, no signup, no verification, no hurdles!
The downside is, bots will attempt to post stuff and spam the forum. We're actually really good at dealing with it, the spam filter works great, and even if something slips through, many of the registered folks can remove it with a simple click of a link.
There's one very common thing the spammers do: post links. That's what it's all about for them, getting the clicks and the traffic. So, if you have 3 links in a post... It's detected as spam. Two links? You're fine. Links without the http:// part? Also good. Registered member? Oh, of course none of this applies to you.
Doesn't that all make perfect sense?
The forum doesn't mind that you hate it, let me assure you, the feeling is not mutual
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Posted By
GeTE
on 2019-10-09
04:54:04
| Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
I'm a bit unsure it is the right way, giving an angry man the shortest direction to a ... machine gun.
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Posted By
SVS
on 2019-10-08
07:30:42
| Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
GeTe, while writing your posts on the forum, you can use the tools available here or by pressing the [Forum Help] button.
Hope that in this way you will hate it a bit less...
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Posted By
GeTE
on 2019-10-08
03:57:14
| Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
Well, I searched now where I got these files from that I found on my harddisk. It must have been from EPA aka EPAPRESS, who posted in these forums:
NOT ALLOWED,SPAM DETECTED
NOT ALLOWED,SPAM DETECTED
If I understand it the right way, this version based on GEOS 2.x and not GEOS 1.2. The main difference on the C64 was the support for a proportional mouse (and not only a joystick-mouse). Would it be possible to support that kind of mouse with this GEOS-version too? And who is capable to accept that quest?
I have either a 1351-compatible mouse, plugged into a SID-Card (NOT ALLOWED,SPAM DETECTED), in mind or a RS232-mouse connected like in this scheme (NOT ALLOWED,SPAM DETECTED).
PS: I really hate- yes HATE! - this forum, because it's impossible to post the neccessary information or any usefull link (my links aimed to plus4world, forum64 geos-infobase and amigaspirit).
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Posted By
MMS
on 2019-10-07
17:34:45
| Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
The color scheme is really different
Based on the below quote from Zimmers, the 2.50 "Markt & Technik" version is the absolute last "original Berkeley" version on C64, so our "3.53" should have Topdesk, and 3.50 still had the origonal color scheme. (Though it seems it could be "easy" to change it to English with HEX editor on disc files, just need to check the lenght... I need a try. would be a nice project)
QUOTE
The final worldwide version from Berkeley Softworks was GEOS 2.0, around 1988. This version included all the features of the previously GEOS versions, and added the following:
-Desk accessory "Pad Color Pref" added.
-New versions of "Photo Manager" and "Text Manager" released.
-Support for hotkeys in the deskTop
-New version of geoWrite with headers and footers
-TEXT GRABBER geoWrite import program included.
-geoSpell spelling checker program included.
-geoMerge program included.
-geoLaser program included.
The absolute final version from Berkeley Softworks, however, was GEOS 2.5. It was only released in Germany in 1993, in cooperation with Markt & Technik. This version is a bundling of GEOS 2.0 with the popular deskTop replacement "TopDesk", and a few popular freeware/shareware applications. Some of its new features over 2.0 include:
-New deskTop "TopDesk" with movable, resizable windows.
-Select Printer desk accessory
-Show Font utility
-Dir Print to send a disk directory to a printer
-geoText text editor that supports geoWrite docs.
-ScrapCutter desk accessory
-Switch utility to change running applications
UNQUOTE
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2019-10-07
15:29:37
| Re: Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
What is the difference compared with other versions available earlier already?
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Posted By
Luca
on 2019-10-07
15:29:37
| Apart of new clean and bigger scans...
Apart of new clean and bigger scans related to ACE +4 and ACE 2, Götz-Tobias Heger has just dug out from the dust of time a clean working version of the most wanted GEOS 3.53.
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