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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2022-07-28
01:25:58
|  Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
Sorry, but why ask here? Go to the github page of OpenC16JoyAdapter. Find link to official support at the bottom of the page. Click that and get official help. It is highly probable that the folks into electronics here could give you all the necessary answers. But why this circuitous, indirect way? OTOH, if there are no specific requirements written for the components in question then it is safe to assume that anything fitting will work.
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Posted By
gmontag451
on 2022-07-28
02:55:43
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
The official support link on the github page directs me to install an app called Telegram, whereas I'm familiar with this forum, it requires no installation and it already has several threads where help was requested and informative answers were readily given. It doesn't seem circuitous at all to ask in a forum where participants are well-versed in the workings of these computers and several have built these devices in the past.
I truly don't mean to sound confrontational, but it seems odd that *any* request for help should be met with incredulity; if not to seek and provide help, as well as the general discussion of the 264 line, what is the purpose of this forum? If there is a better forum to request help relating to these specific computers, I'd like to know about it. Although Lemon64 has an "other" board, engagement seems perhaps less passionate than here.
With regards to the requirements of the components; the specifics provided on the github page are sparse and scattered, likely because hobbyist developers often expect that their readers have a certain level of familiarity and already understand the interaction of components needed for the project. It's very common for a part to be available in many different values of amperage or voltage which are not compatible even if they fit. Unfortunately the information I could find on the github page is not detailed enough *for me* to feel confident in choosing a component and connecting it to a relatively rare computer, hence my question.
Again my intent is not to be confrontational, but simply to address your objections in a thorough manner.
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Posted By
gmontag451
on 2022-07-28
03:29:55
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
Just an update: The Telegram app for Windows requires a companion phone app, which honestly seems a step too far to me. I'm an old dog, which I suppose is why I find comfort in my retro computers.
Interestingly the main page of Lemon 64's "other" board has a paltry 6 posts related to the Plus/4 dating back to May. They are all from a single user, and have zero replies. Even the sticky message at the top of the board directs Plus/4 enthusiasts to this forum.
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2022-07-28
06:07:29
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
That's complete stupidity on their part. How do people always come up with these genius ideas that you need to install yet another programme or application just to get help using their creations? Sorry, mate.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2022-07-28
06:48:54
 | Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
Adding components to a joystick adapter is a new one... I don't believe any are found in the Hardware section here?
It's not something I've ever looked into but from memory it's the Ted chip that people want to protect so the mod is done directly to the mother board. I'm sure it was Christian Schaffner aka Solder who covered this, some diagram of what's what I recall. Maybe the right person who knows will see this and remember.
I've said it many times in the past... When using a joystick adapter, keep your joysticks simple and made for C64, make sure they have no flashy lights or crazy auto fire and you should be good. Competition Pro, Zip Stick, Cheetah 125. Official Vic20 stick are all fine.
DO NOT use multi button joypads like the ones made for a Amiga including Sega Megadrive pads on C16/Plus4!!!
Keep away from Quickshot sticks as some of these have flashy lights. Some of these also have rapid auto fires that ping the Ted chip so fast that over time the Ted may die so as a rule I never use auto fire.
If I remember correct Atari 2600 joysticks are wired sightly differently and may send power down the wrong wire... I don't use them any way.
Keep it simple, single fire button and made for C64 and you should be fine with a standard joystick adapter. I've been using standard joystick adapters for C16/Plus4 since 1985 and still do to this very day.
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Posted By
siz
on 2022-07-28
10:37:32
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
@gmontag451: I've looked at the schematics and your choices and I'm pretty sure that You've chosen the proper components. (Both the values and the pinouts match the schematics so they must fit)
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Posted By
TLC
on 2022-07-28
11:36:10
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
@gmontag451 Hi, I was about to reply somewhat similar to what siz wrote, but he has just beat me to it  .
Addendum:
The gated logic will protect your TED from happens between the interface's end and the external world. That is, you're free to use any sort of more-or-less Atari joyport compatible devices (including Mega Drive joypads), that's no problem. The worst that you could expect is that some gadget, or, some part of some gadget, simply won't work. You should be even able to pull and reconnect joysticks off/to the interface without consequences.
The gated logic will not protect your TED from happens between the machine's joystick port and the interface logic. That is, similarly to using any other Plus/4 compatible joysticks, pay attention when you connect the thing to the machine. (Try reducing the chances of shocking the machine's joystick ports with ESD. Try grounding yourself to the machine's metal shielding (say, touch the cartridge port's metal cage) while you connect anything to the joystick ports. Never swap the interface between the joytick ports while the machine is on, etc. etc.)
I was lucky to have received a couple of boards of this design from a friend who'd occassionally also visit this forum (thank you again, much appreciated! ), ...other than having written the original document (which SukkoPera's readme references) some 20+ years ago  . This is a pretty much basic TTL device, with no special components needed. SukkoPera used resistor networks in his PCB design to spare space, those could be somewhat difficult to obtain, but as it looks you have already managed to find them so that looks fine too . When I populated one of my boards, I couldn't obtain the 10-pin isolated 100 ohm network, so I just substituted it by soldering cheap SMD resistors between the vias. As long as the component values are somewhat close, the thing is just supposed to work.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2022-07-29
13:19:02
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
Those components are fine, but I think you can get a cheaper alternative for the bussed network, try this:
https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bourns/4606X-101-103LF?qs=Qv7qbSW4mEHqAfbN3SBBUw%3D%3D
BTW, the Telegram channel is no longer my support channel, I need to take that away from the docs, sorry. I find it odd that it requires another app to be installed, though. I am no endorser of Telegram in any case, I just find it a useful messaging app, that's all. It's got pretty widespread usage in Italy, but not all over the world, I guess .
@TLC: Ooooh, you must be Levente! It's an honor to meet you! Hope my work didn't upset you, I did in the hope of saving more C16s from an untimely death!
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Posted By
TLC
on 2022-07-29
15:15:34
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
Heey @SukkoPera,
My pleasure... No hard feelings, in fact quite the opposite, I was/am happy that someone volunteered to create a PCB design from it (...something that can also just be ordered from PCBWay right away, as an added bonus), very much appreciated!
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Posted By
gmontag451
on 2022-07-29
15:38:27
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
Wow, thanks everyone for your input, and thanks SukkoPera for sharing your project (and PCB) with the world! I've never heard of Telegram, but I'm in the US (we don't even use Whatsapp) plus I'm 50... Anyway I'm excited that soon I'll be up and running Lykia!
I should have said up front that I plan to use Atari joysticks; they're nothing fancy but I just really like them. I understand that they might damage the TED chip without resistors, which of course could be added to the simpler adaptors. (Also I know to never hot plug anything into the Plus/4.)
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Posted By
gmontag451
on 2022-07-29
15:50:13
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
I see TLC also mentioned not to hotswap, and wrote about grounding to the cassette port cage... when plugging in a device should I be grounded if the Plus/4 is off? (And thanks TLC for your work which led to this project.)
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Posted By
gmontag451
on 2022-07-29
16:05:48
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
Sorry, I wish I could edit: Plugging or unplugging is never recommended while the Plus/4 is powered on, so I sort of answered my own question. It's safer to be grounded while swapping devices on a powered-off Plus/4, got it!
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Posted By
MIK
on 2022-07-29
23:46:57
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
The Ted series are one of the fastest booting computers ever so switching off is not so bad. 
Although it's not advised, you can get away with a sneaky swap of the joystick to a different port when the machine is on - just make sure you do not press and hold any directions or fire as you swap it over. Put the stick on the table so you know it's dead, and only then change to the other port. I did it many times back in the day until I got a second stick.
Better to be safe than sorry as they say so always be aware if your going to swap make sure no hands are touching the joystick just the be on the safe side.
All other ports be it video, serial, tape, cartridge ect... Just like C64 only connect to these when the machine is off.
The Vic20 stick is similar to the Atari one with it's button like contacts for direction and fire inside. It has a smaller base and fire is infront of the stick...
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2022-07-30
04:10:22
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
I basically advice not to hotplug anything on the C16/+4. Come on, why would you really need to do it? Building 10 of my adapters costs basically as building 1, since you just can't get parts for one alone. At that point you can just use any of the ubiquitous DB9 controllers, so just get two and leave then permanently connected.
As for plugging stuff in and out with the machine turned off, just make sure you touch something grounded before you do it. Or just walk barefoot .
That's all I do. It's true that Commodore just didn't care for ESD protection at all on the x264 line (that was one of the reasons behind my LittleSixteen project, see this: https://hackaday.io/project/182543/log/201593-electricity-in-the-sky-with-diamonds) and that we need to be particularly careful with them, but at the same time I think we must avoid getting too paranoid about it, or it will spoil the fun .
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Posted By
MIK
on 2022-07-30
15:57:58
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
Lazy is the reason why.
It normally takes two hands to remove the cable, one to hold the joystick adapter and one to pull the joystick plug out of the adapter so that teenager I once was got away with it.
But yeah, with the price of retro stuff today it's better to be safe than sorry.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2022-08-02
04:47:51
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
Hehe, but if you're lazy, you should be less than willing to keep plugging stuff in and out .
BTW, if you want to be able to switch your joysticks between your ports, you might want to try one of those swappers made for the C64, they should work fine when plugged into my adapters. But yeah, that's even more stuff hanging out of the poor little computer .
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Posted By
MIK
on 2022-08-01
07:35:10
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
I'm in the camp, If it ain't broke don't fix it.
The idea of wireless on the old machines is cool though..., more so if it allows a different preferred controller that would be impossible to use normally.
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Posted By
gmontag451
on 2022-08-01
18:18:32
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
"Building 10 of my adapters costs basically as building 1"
Absolutely, I can only find the 74LS244 on Jameco, and they have a minimum order or they hit you with a fee. I mean it isn't much but... I'm scrounging around my other projects looking for needed parts to fill out the order. In the meantime I broke down and just ordered a Plus/4 joystick. (I still want to build an adapter though)
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2022-08-24
03:58:16
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
You can also use 74HCT244, which seems to be available on Mouser right now: https://www.mouser.it/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/SN74HCT244NE4
EDIT: No longer in stock as of 24/08 :(.
And, while not recommended, I bet 74HC244 would work too.
You can also get chips from China, try AliExpress for instance. It might take a while for them to arrive, though!
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Posted By
gmontag451
on 2022-08-02
14:01:41
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
Thanks SukkoPera, that puts my whole order just with Mouser!
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Posted By
gmontag451
on 2022-08-23
05:43:08
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
A few days ago I received my PCBWay order of SukkoPera's board, which is based on Levente Hársfalvi's work. I finished building the adapter tonight. It works beautifully, and was easy to sort out and assemble! Thanks to everyone for the help and advice!
I've now built both the advanced adapter and the simple adapter (with five 100 ohm resistors added, one between each directional and fire button line) and while I like both, if I ever need another one I think the simple adapter is sufficient for the Atari-style joysticks I prefer.
Side Note: Out of curiosity I also purchased a real Plus/4 T-1341 joystick and a Commodore 1311 joystick for comparison. For anyone who is curious the T-1341 uses rubber contacts with varying resistance of 40-60 ohms, which decreases somewhat the longer they are pressed. So 100 ohm resisters are a very good method of emulating the T-1341 when using Atari-style sticks with an adapter. Conversely the 1311 has the same dome-type contacts as an Atari 2600 joystick, which offer zero resistance when pushed. So it may be wise to use these with an adapter which contains resistors just to be safe—although their seems to be a lot of uncertainty if resistors are necessary. The best answer for me is that it doesn't hurt to include them, and I feel safer.
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Posted By
gmontag451
on 2022-08-23
05:45:32
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
*there not their 
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Posted By
MIK
on 2022-08-23
09:18:36
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
Good to hear your up and running. Have fun!
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2022-08-24
03:57:53
| Re: Joystick Adapter component advice
>> The best answer for me is that it doesn't hurt to include them, and I feel safer.
That is exactly the point .
I would really recommend always using the "advanced" adapter though. I know that soldering the MiniDIN connector is teeeeediooooouuuuus, but you have to do that for whatever adapter you are building... Once that is done, the board really only has a handful of components, so it should be cheap, quick and easy to manufacture (feel free to build some with your excess and put them on sale here) and the added buffer allows to just plug in any joystick without having to think each time "will this one break the machine or not?". You can just stop worrying, which is a great achievement!
One thing I forgot to say in the past: I went with that inline "independent" resistor array because I had some in store, but if you don't want to buy that particular part, you can just solder 5 "normal" resistors between each couple of adjacent holes.
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