Posted By
shoulders
on 2022-02-14
10:34:31
|  Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
Using MTAP and TAPSERV I created TAP files of the King Size Volume 1 and Volume 2 tapes (I still have the tapes)
I sampled them using both fullwave and halfwave options and each side was sampled several times. The TAP sizes for each side were mostly the same from each run.
mtap -xe -b 10 -c16pal output.tap
mtap -xe -b 10 -h -c16pal output.tap
The fullwave files when loaded in VICE show a list of the programs on the tape.
When i load the first first game 'City Runner' using LOAD , the game is found and starts to load normally but never completes and if you leave it to see if it loads the tape will get to the end and just stop, no program is ever executed.
So this is why I did the halfwave to see if that was what the issue is. The halfwave TAPs do not even show programs in VICE so must be wrong.
I have successfully images a number_builder tape and this loads fine in YAPE/VICE.
I used a 1531 tape player with new belts and a cleaned head connected with an official grey adapter to the C64 (new style)
So my problem is, Why do the the programs on the TAPs not load from the fullwave TAPs?
Is there some sort of turboloader issue?
Is the capture technique wrong?
Is this an emulator issue?
Any help is appreciated. I also want these to work so I can upload the TAPs to this site.
shoulders
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Posted By
Lacus
on 2022-02-14
11:30:04
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
First of all, be sure that head of dataset is adjusted properly (if you can load the content of casette into plus/4 without problem, it should be OK.)
Second, try to use mtap -b 10 -h -c16pal output.tap command if it is recorded by turbo or any copy protection (if not, do not use -h), I have never used -xe or -x or -xa for plus/4
Do you use X1531 cable? (https://sta.c64.org/x1531.html)
I recommend to capture only one or two program as first step. If it works well, than your setup should be OK and you can capture the whole cassette.
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2022-02-14
11:40:29
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
TAPSERV for the C64 cannot read halfwave tapes, as the C64 is unable to read them itself.
If you have a 16/Plus4, you can try out something which I've been working on, TTAPSERV (or TED Tapserv) 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xquj5o94dskcri5/ttapserv.PRG?dl=1
Remember to select halfwave format by pressing F2 before running the tape.
Although I've had no problems so far, I still regard it as experimental at the moment
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Posted By
shoulders
on 2022-02-14
12:02:36
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
@Lacus
- I managed to image 'Number Builder' and a commodore C64 game 'Trivial Pursuit' with no issues.
- 'mtap -b 10 -h -c16pal output.tap' is exactly what I used (for halwaves) with TAPSERV but this shows no program names in the TAP preview in VICE unlike the fullwave stuff.
- I do have a 1531 cable and I could try that without TAPSERV and I will start with halfwaves.
@Ulysses777
- I was trying to avoid getting my plus4 out as it is all nicely packed, But I will try your software
Thoughts:
This information puts me back to thinking that the program header is set in such a way that it can be read in fullwave mode on TAPSERV but the payload is stored in halfwave.
Questions
1) how can I tell if a TAP is using halfwaves other than doing an old fashion Tape --> WAV and then looking at the wave patterns?
2) I am not sure is King Size is halfwave, how can i tell?
3) what program do you recommend to check my tape head azimuth? (I have plus4 and a c64)
4) Do I use TTAPSERV.PRG with MTAP and the same switches?
4) is there tutorial on why halfwaves were used, best way to sample them etc.. I have cobbled together a couple bits of information but for a newbie doesn't mean much 
very helpful , thanks
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2022-02-14
16:37:36
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
First of all, the preview pane in VICE will not show the contents of halfwave TAPs, but VICE itself will work with them.
Also, the program header is always in wholewave format, and the turbo loader may well be halfwave. But you'll need to record the whole tape in halfwave format.
Answers to questions:
>1) how can I tell if a TAP is using halfwaves other than doing an old fashion Tape --> WAV and then looking at the wave patterns?
Pretty much, or as Lacus suggests, try only the first program and see if it works each way.
>2) I am not sure is King Size is halfwave, how can i tell?
If it uses the same loader as King Size Turbo Tape, then it's halfwave.
>3) what program do you recommend to check my tape head azimuth? (I have plus4 and a c64)
For the C64, this seems to be well regarded:
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=49944
>4) Do I use TTAPSERV.PRG with MTAP and the same switches?
Yes.
Just remember to select halfwave mode (F2) on TTAPSERV, as MTAP has no way of knowing what is being fed to it
>4) is there tutorial on why halfwaves were used, best way to sample them etc.. I have cobbled together a couple bits of information but for a newbie doesn't mean much sad
It might be because it's harder to copy, and of course because the Plus/4 is capable of reading inverted waveforms, as it can detect when the tape wave input goes from low to high and high to low, unlike the C64, which can only detect the latter.
As for sampling them, it's always best to use a datasette, and thus the MTAP -h option. As for the X1531 cable, the only thing to watch out for is, depending on your PC, if it provides enough power to play long tapes at the correct speed.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2022-02-15
01:37:23
 | Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
A friend had this back in the day, and yeah King Size uses a Half Wav turbo so will need the -h tag like:
mtap -c16pal -h gamename.tap
If your coping long tapes end to end as one complete file add this to increase the buffer size:
-b 10
The King Size turbo is a half way any way, if I remember correct the game Thrust uses the King Size turbo so if you have a copy that's another to try.
Novaload and non-turbo saved games are about the only tapes that are not half wav on C16/Plus4.
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Posted By
shoulders
on 2022-02-15
13:57:13
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
@MIK
I found one of your old posts with a larger list of halfwave tapes so for reference I have included the link below:
forum/3539/-/halfwave
@Ulysses777
I am trying out your software and all seems well but I have found something unusual but it might also be good programming.
Number Builder is a fullwave (wholewave) tape with a novaloader.
I sampled number builder with your software (and a Plus4)
- mtap -lpt1 -b 10 -c16pal output.tap (195KB) --> The program loads correctly
- mtap -lpt1 -b 10 -h -c16pal output.tap (390KB) --> The program loads correctly
So as you can see when I sampled number builder in halfwave the size doubled but the game still loaded in VICE. Is this normal?
I sampled bridgehead on both devices and the tapes ran and failed as expected.
fullwave to halfwave = ok
halfwave to fullwave = no
If your software can convert fullwave into halfwave then there is no quick way of working out what the waveform of the tape was. so is there a possibility of putting a wave detection into your software. It would sample a bit of the tape and then tell you what the waveform was and then advise you to rewind the tape before proceeding (auto setting the option would also be nice).
Let me know if you need any more info.
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2022-02-15
14:53:54
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
@shoulders
The size difference for your Number Builder TAPs is normal. The reason for this is explained by the differences between the two TAP formats:
The fullwave/wholewave TAP format is the original format, and was originally designed for C64 emulators. Each byte in the file represents the duration of a complete low-high wave, which is how the C64 responds to tape pulses.
However, because the fullwave TAP format is designed to assume a low-high wave, it will not work for turbos which use inverted (high-low) waves. That's where the halfwave TAP format comes in. Each byte in a halfwave TAP file represents the duration of each half of each wave cycle independently.
Basically, the halfwave TAP format is simply a more precise method of dumping tapes. Any tape that can be dumped as a fullwave TAP can also be dumped as a halfwave TAP, and there are some tapes that can only be dumped as a halfwave TAP.
I'll have a look into a waveform checker.
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2022-02-15
15:27:59
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
My favourite topic First off, wholewave TAP's should not even exist for the 264 family. For the tape input is edge triggered there, rather than level triggered as in the C64... this means that any custom tape loader can accidentally invert the waveform and the +4 would not notice as it only cares about rising/falling edges of the signal. The C64 however, detects signal levels, and hence cares very much about the order (or "phase") of the signal.
Unfortunately the wholewave MTAP format had become way too widespread by the time we realized with @MIK and Markus Brenner that it was probably not the optimal one for the 264 family...
Actually, I consider the whole MTAP format a bit awkward by now. I'd much prefer simple (non-canonical) 1 bit WAV's as a much more efficient format (in size, consistency etc.) that can even be further reduced in size by ZIP-ping. I even used it in some other emulators of mine.
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Posted By
shoulders
on 2022-02-15
16:07:22
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
Maybe Plus4world should have halfwave TAP downloads on the game pages so people are encouraged to re-upload original tapes in this format before it is too late.
Obviously if the original is stored in wholewave, then a halfwave upload is not required.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2022-02-15
22:45:31
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
Wow was it almost 20 years ago we started tapping!
Not that I remember 'everything' should of been halfway when it was added to mtap for C16/Plus4?!?! lol, maybe because I had tapped all my Novaload games and all that was left was halfway. 
This late in the day it doesn't really matter if most of the classic taps that are in Novaload or non-turbo form are fullwav. Emulators use them and so do the latest SD tape carts/devices for real machines.
A tap is a tap as long as it works, but also.. Basic Kernal saved stuff on tape from TED machines 'will' load on C64/C128 & Vic20 so keeping them fullwav is maybe the best thing to actually do and have. That just leaves a large chunk of the Novaload tap's that we made back in the day, if ever a problem does show up in the future we are covered as I still have my stash of originals that I made tap's from.
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Posted By
shoulders
on 2022-02-16
04:32:33
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
I have now sampled the King size tapes but I want to test every program on the tapes and get their counter location but I am struggling on how to do this on VICE.
As you know normally the you would just hit stop and reset the computer and the tape will stay exactly where it is.
VICE
When I load the first program on VICE this works well and I get the counter location.
So I then reset VICE so i can load the next program and get its counter, but:
Soft-reset wipes the counter and when i do a hard reset the tape counter is also reset. Is there something I have missed?
YAPE
I have found that if I use the quick debugger (Shift + F9) I can see a counter which is ok, not quite as nice as a counter on a tape player.
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2022-02-16
08:48:54
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
@shoulders
There is a setting in VICE to prevent the tape returning to the start on reset. The location of this setting varies depending on which UI you are using:
If using the older Win32 interface, it's in Settings -> Datasette settings -> uncheck 'Reset Datasette with CPU'
If using the GTK interface, it's in Settings drop menu -> Settings -> I/O Extensions -> Tape port devices -> uncheck 'Reset datasette with CPU'
Also, here is a VERY experimental program for checking the waveform of a tape:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4bw63uxvhvjmzkg/wavcheck.PRG?dl=1
When you run it, you'll get a blank screen, and it will display flashing bars when reading the tape.
If the bars are white, it means the waveform is undetemined, this normally happens on leader sections.
If the bars are continuous green, then the waveform is normal (low-high).
If the bars are red, then the waveform is inverted (high-low), and will need a halfwave TAP.
If you get mixed white and coloured bars, or flashes of white bars, then it probably uses an asymmetric waveform (Darron Broad's turbo loader is an example of this). Again, this will need a halfwave TAP.
Also, try not to start playing the tape in the middle of a leader section, as it may show the wrong colour
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Posted By
shoulders
on 2022-02-16
14:27:38
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
@Ulysses777
Your TTAPSERV.PRG software works well. I have imaged the King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes and it worked perfectly. (used halfwave, XE cable and 1531 drive)
I do have a few programs that load and then crash with errors (below) but I think this is probably down to poor quality control from ROBOTEK. These programs crashed just the same on my real Plus4.
?SYNTAX ERROR IN 155
?SYNTAX ERROR IN 540
?UNDEF'D STATEMENT ERROR IN 240
?OUT OF MEMORY ERROR IN 350
Several games are not named correctly, some are just the wrong game all together. I made a companion excel spreadsheet with all the issues I found.
Do I upload these here?
[ SiteUploader ]
The TAP files come to 16MB RAW / 4MB zipped which puts me over the 2MB limit.
Any thoughts?
I will try your wave software hopefully at weekend, I have spent a bit to much time getting these tapes imaged and sorted.
@everyone
Thanks to everyone on this thread for the help and a special thanks to Ulysses777 for his software, game change.
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Posted By
Lacus
on 2022-02-17
08:23:02
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
Please send it to Csabo in e-mail. He will upload to the site.
Thanks!!!
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Posted By
shoulders
on 2022-02-19
15:31:51
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
@Ulysses777
Have you got an example tape with asymmetric waveform (Darron Broad's turbo loader).
I did a google but could not find any of his work.
Thanks
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2022-02-19
16:10:38
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
@shoulders
Tomcat and Taskforce are Darron Broad's games.
The Razorsoft games Mail Trail, Mega Zap, Raider and Sea Strike also use an asymmetric loader, as do their Paxman M199 rereleases.
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Posted By
Rüdiger
on 2022-02-20
05:26:34
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
Ulysses777 Razorsoft called this fastloader Razorload ... and Paxman has taken it over unchanged with the rereleases.
Also Gnasher from Yes Software used this fastloader later.
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Posted By
shoulders
on 2022-03-21
10:06:27
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
@Ulysses777
I have sampled 85 Tapes on a Plus4 using the halfwave option and they all worked well.
I tested the waveform detect program (wavecheck.prg) in YAPE (I think) on tapes of various types and it correctly found the right type of waveform. I could not check on my real Plus4 because my adapter broke and I am waiting for new diodes from china.
I have done some instructions (still need a bit of work) for newbies like me in sampling tapes.
https://quantumwarp.com/kb/articles/125-emulators/977-commodore-tape-transfers
I would like to add a link to be able to add a download link for the software TTAPSERV.PRG and WAVECHECK.PRG if possible. Is this ok with you and do you have a preferred link, perhaps add them to the plus4world archive.
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2022-03-21
19:55:28
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
Okay, I guess they're good enough for release
TTAPSERV
The only significant change from the earlier version is that it is now set to halfwave mode by default.
Tape Wave Checker
New name for WAVCHECK, added a timing setting and some instructions.
And something else to play with:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4wtfirn4j789l5s/ptap_hw.zip?dl=1
This is an experimental modification of PTAP which will also work with halfwave tapes. There are no extra command line switches needed.
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Posted By
shoulders
on 2022-03-22
04:10:59
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
I will try out PTAP when i acquire some cassette tapes.
What is the timing adjustment for in 'Tape Wave Checker'?
While you are messing with MTAP/PTAP is it possible to add Commodore PET support? I don't have a PET but this additional option might help those who do.
This also might be a newbie suggestion, but is it possible to add a custom sample rate (via a switch) to allow the collection of other formats of tape i.e. spectrum and these others platforms what ever these are (C5x0/Cx0/C7x0)
https://vice-emu.sourceforge.io/vice_17.html
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Posted By
MIK
on 2022-03-22
08:01:16
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
ZX spectrum, emulation wise they have a few tap formats and I would not know where to start. With the real ZX hardware it's as simple as pressing record on a mini disc player to copy tapes, or make a wav file copy on PC of a tape and then turn it into an MP3 and then any MP3 player can be used for playback.
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Posted By
shoulders
on 2022-06-18
11:22:35
| Re: Captured King Size Volume 1 and 2 tapes with MTAP and TAPSERV but the programs will not load
Fair enough, PET would be a nice addition but only if not a lot of work to add.
@Ulysses777
The name 'TAPE_WAVE_CHECKER' name gets cut short to 'TAPE_WAVE_CHECKE' which might catch a few people out. It is not a big issue though.
WAVCHECK was Ok but what about these suggestions
TWAV_CHECKER
TWAVE_CHECKER
All the best
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