Posted By
Mad
on 2020-07-23
14:19:26
|  What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
Hi guys,
I know it's a little bit "blasphemic", but does anyone of you have a memory expansion running in normal day to day "business".
Would be really interessting! If yes, what kind of expansion that may be..
I just am thinking about doing some 256k stuff at some point later, perhaps that may show what is possible with the graphics unit of the C16 / Plus/4 in games.. Perhaps the results of that will be really good or at least somehow interressting. But only fingers crossed no guarantee for that.
I know there are some developers out there doing chip replacements which already have some 256k directly on board.. I think with the Hannes paradigma.. Perhaps some people already bought such kind of stuff..
For me there are currently 2 types of currently used expansions I know of:
- Hannes
- Sidekick264 NeoRam (Probably currently not used by anyone)
*- Csory (which would "include" the Hannes one, too, I would go for the Hannes one in that case..)
So I really would appreciate some thoughts about this, and perhaps some guys do have such expansions already. That would be a pretty nice info. WinYape features the Hannes 256k mode already so that's pretty cool to develop Hannes stuff..
So what do you think about that.. (Is it already too newscool / not really needed?)
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Posted By
George
on 2020-07-23
16:28:49
 | Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
Hi "Chiefmaster" Mad,
i desperatly wish our machine had more RAM (as much as possible). Ideally Like inserting a Cartridge. The best case for my needs also available in BASIC.
Greetings George
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2020-07-24
03:22:49
| Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
Hannes-256k compatible stuffs, please. That's a quasi-standard and it can be bought nowadays too, from Lotharek.
Somehow, Sidekick264 doesn't appeal to me much. I do understand what it is capable of and how much work gone into it, but too much software and too little hardware.
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Posted By
SVS
on 2020-07-24
06:17:17
 | Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
Since many years I own a 256K Plus/4 with internal Solder/Hannes expansion and it works as well.
I never had a problem with the HW nor with software running. My package Mega-Assembler can run either with a standard 64K machine or with a 256K machine. I respect Csory' architecture, but IMO the Hannes' one is easier to be programmed.
Regarding the BASIC use, I performed some attempts to use the 256K feature, but with no success. (Actually I've tried with Austrospeed, not the true Basic).
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Posted By
George
on 2020-07-24
07:31:00
| Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
I do not quite understand how the Hannes Ram works. You have 4 banks and you switch through them by setting some bits on a certain memory location. Can you define the adress window which is swapped or is everything above $1000 swapped?
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Posted By
MMS
on 2020-07-24
07:56:42
 | Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
I own the Lotharek CPU upgrade came with Hannes compatible 512K, but actually it is out of the Plus/4, as the 64K upgrade from MCes was a little easier to install (soldering, eh).
But I am ready to install it, if worth.
I really like the concept of the SideKick, though I could not progress too far in the card production, my Eagle was not able to manage the Gerber. (so I deleted it finally, haha, revenge). Especially like the idea of smaller banks, and theoreticallyit will be able to emulate the Sound Expander with ther Yamaha sound chip 
George's question is valid: your program code cannot grow bigger in BASIC than 48K, otherwise during page change youre code will partially vanish. Also if you need all data at the same time in the memory, I think it will not work, or the code become very slow due to continuous (extra) bank switching. (Extra to the continuous RAM/ROM switches, I suppose that's why the Plus/4 and C128 slower in BASIC than the C64. On the other hand, C16 should be way faster then, no? or the RAMs are mirrorered, and still doing the RAM/ROM switching?)
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Posted By
SVS
on 2020-07-24
09:42:59
| Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
There is a setting, in the Solder/Hannes version, that allows to switch the Ram from $4000 up and maintaining always common the Ram lower.
This means that a possible Basic program (or a HR image) shorter than $3000 bytes can work independently by any switching.
@MMS: I don't think that a modified $473 routine (able to switch the Ram bank too) will make too slow the running, because it just needs a STA $FD16 to do it (when you know what new bank to set).
A note: all the times I'm fascinated by the simplicity of these commands. Respects to Hannes and Solder!
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Posted By
Majikeyric
on 2020-07-24
14:42:32
 | Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
I also own the Lotharek CPU upgrade
Sidekick264 seems great if only someone could sold the PCB....
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Posted By
Frenetic
on 2020-07-24
15:26:58
| Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
some guys on forum64.de sell them from time to time. Once the new version I'm working on is ready, I might have some spare.
(but it's not too hard to build them yourself, it's only THT and "large" SMD)
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Posted By
MMS
on 2020-07-25
10:58:52
| Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
@Frenetic: can't wait :-)
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Posted By
SVS
on 2020-07-25
14:40:34
| Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
@George: the Solder/Hannes expansion works as follows:
- there are 4 banks of 64K each;
- you can set which bank is in use (read/write);
- inside the set bank you can choose the area: $1000-$FFFF or $4000-$FFFF (the precedent part remains common to all the banking combos and is the $0000-$0FFF/3FFF of bank #3.
- Bank #3 is the default (like the expansion was not present).
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Posted By
George
on 2020-07-25
17:29:57
| Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
@SVS: Thank you for the informartion.
This means for BASIC if you are in Graphic modes you cannot switch banks because Basic starts at $4000. And inTextmode you have to stay under ยง4000.
The Solder version uses 16K frames, if i read it correctly.
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2020-07-26
04:03:18
| Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
@George: Hannes designed the memory expansion Solder was manufacturing it. The other design that pages 16k slices was made by Csory. Or, at least, that's how I understand it. Later models were unifying these two designs.
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Posted By
siz
on 2020-07-26
05:39:49
| Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
gerliczer: you are right about Csory's expansion. Personally I'd prefer that way because with the Hannes way you have a bit less available memory (4x60k switchable + 4k common at most) and you are restricted to place all your common logic (like interrupts, banking, etc) under $1000 or $4000 (but in that case you have even less expansion memory: 4x48k + 16k). With Csory's you can use all the memory you have and you can move your 16k expansion "window" to any 16k page of the main memory.
But virtually no software exists that is capable of using the Csory expansion (only some of Csory's own tools use it). The Hannes one is a bit more "widely" used but if you search for effect 256k support 256K Support you'll see that it's 27 entries only. So currently no real benefit of owning one. (I also have a Lotharek one which is actually 512k).
I don't see the chance of using any of these expansions from BASIC. (You would have to create your own memory handling for BASIC which is not trivial)
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Posted By
George
on 2020-07-26
09:01:18
| Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
@gerliczer Thank you for the correction and the further infos
@siz I would prefer Csory's method also. I don't know if his method works in YAPE, but i am thinking about to try out to store and read some big array's from BASIC using his 16k frames and some POKE/PEEK logic.
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Posted By
SVS
on 2020-07-26
12:52:48
| Re: What do you think of 256k (or more k) expansions
For optimal use of Hannes/Solder you should mount OS92 or OS96 mod ROMs.
They allow the BANK switching by the new Basic command BANK (in addition to many nice news).
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