| Posted By
Frederick
on 2018-11-11
23:27:52
|  Wanting to get started with the Plus/4
Hello! I've been wanting to get into the Commodore Plus/4 scene with actual hardware for a while, but for various reasons never had the chance. We're finally settled in and once I change jobs and our family dog has some surgery done, I'm looking to get some original hardware that I can play around with and dive into the system more than I can with an emulator.
Some questions:
1. From what I've read/learned, it sounds like the TED chip has an unfortunately high failure rate typically attributed to overheating. Putting a heat sink on the chip is one of the most recommended fixes for that, but I'm wondering what in general I should know so that I can actually take care of the machine that I buy. Once I get a machine what should I be doing to take care of it so that it lasts as long as it could?
2. Even though I'm in the US, the Plus/4 series seems to have its most loyal following in Europe. Would I be better off buying one for PAL in order to maximize software support (particularly since most TVs and adapters now support NTSC and PAL input)?
3. Would there be a reason to get a Commodore 16 and expand the system memory to 64K rather than get a Commodore Plus/4?
4. I'll likely end up getting an SD2IEC or similar device to be able to load software more conveniently onto the system as floppies and tapes aren't necessarily the easiest to come by, and much of the more modern releases seem more available as electronic copies rather than physical copies. Does anyone have any recommendations on the best way to get an SD card or CompactFlash working with a Plus/4?
5. I'd also like to be able to use floppies, but I suspect it will be difficult to find a 1551 drive here in the US. I do have a 1571 drive but it sounds like compatibility with the Plus/4 is variable, particularly for some titles like "Pets Rescue" that use custom loaders for performance reasons. Should I see if my old 1541s from my Commodore 64s are still around (or buy a new one off eBay), or are there better options now? (The only other think I can think of doing is going the route of using something like Pi1541, which would solve both the above question of getting an SD card working and hopefully having a 1541-like supported drive.)
6. Is there anything else that I should know, keeping in mind that I grew up with the C64 and don't know nearly as much about the Plus/4?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2018-11-12
00:42:14
 | Re: Wanting to get started with the Plus/4
1.
Also heat sink the CPU which runs parallel to the TED chip, (TED should be under a metal shield box in a Plus/4 and is the longest chip) CPU is the second longest chip.
The joy ports are not shielded like they are in say a C64 or other computers/consoles... If using joysticks with a 9 pin adaptor on the TED series keep the 3rd party joystick simple as in single fire button made for the C64 or Amiga, no flashy lights or strange buttons like Turbo ect. Try not to use Auto Fire as that repeated pinging goes straight to the TED chip and may damage the chip over any period of time.
Do not use Sega Master System or Sega Genesis control pads as these can damage TED.
The most common sticks are fine such as Comp Pro, Zip Stik and Tac, even a CBM Vic 20 joystick is fine to use on C16/Plus4.
Keep the machine away from dust and tobacco smoke, this can get under the keys and cover the key contacts. The odd key may become sticky, as in you might need to press harder to make it work if it becomes dirty. The contacts can be cleaned but will required the Shift/Lock key to be de and re-soldered to take the keyboard apart fully.
3.
People who prefer C16's with 64K tend to prefer the classic C64 style keyboard, and it's a proper keyboard. The Plus/4 uses rubber contacts. The Plus/4 keyboard is nice to use in my opinion though and the arrow keys are well placed. There is also the fact that some C16 owners may of started with this machine back in the day and it's what they are used too so have a C16 as a preference. Some prefer the shape and color ect.
5.
1541 drives work fine on TED machines.
And just in case your not using it... One of the best emulators out there for the TED series is YAPE and is highly recommend by all those in the know. If you look at say Yape's Drive 8 setup under Settings your see a 1541 is top of the list. 
Link: http://yape.homeserver.hu/
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Posted By
Luca
on 2018-11-12
02:13:08
 | Re: Wanting to get started with the Plus/4
1. My opinion is that overheating is just an overrated humbug: open a Plus/4 and touch the ICs, you will agree the black box is one of the coldest machines in its genre. The real deal is the residual charge once the mahcine has been shut down, and the consequential damage MIK pointed out, in case of cable detaching.
2. Absolutely true, do it.
3. Although they're the same in the 99,9999% cases, I would swear they could react different in veeery rare cases of extreme coding ;)
4. There are tons of those SD2IECs, some are for Plus/4 too, but there's no specific hardware for it, so pick up your prefer one and let's go.
5. I'm aware that some experienced guys like e.g. The 8-bit Guy has just presented the machine with the 1551 as main disk driver, but that's not the truth: the 1551 is a splendid dedicated piece of hardware, but the real standard remains the classic 1541. Even on this site, you can see how much software offers a 1541/1551 choice to work, mainly because of the notable diffusion these machine had in Germany, but absolutely don't think at 1551 as the undisputed weapon into our arsenal ;)
Just to pick up your own example: our Pets Rescue game loads so fast not just due the 1551, but thank to bubis and BSZ who developed the fantastic Bitfire+4 trackloader; I by myself have performed all the main prerelease tests with my 1541II :)
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Posted By
bubis
on 2018-11-12
07:37:22
| Re: Wanting to get started with the Plus/4
1. Never had that problem.
2. Go for PAL, IMO.
3. I think C16 has a cleaner PAL output.
4-5. Check this out: http://retroemu.hu/sd1541-ii.php?lang=en
6. Probably a lot. Just come to the forum with your questions, there are a lot of helpful ppl here.
+1: If you are looking for an assembler, Kick Assember 5.1 is probably the best option right now: http://theweb.dk/KickAssembler/Main.html
+2: You almost always get equivalent results with Plus4Emu.
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2018-11-12
07:36:14
| Re: Wanting to get started with the Plus/4
6. Don't be surprised if you find this machine to be a letdown. This is not a C64.
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Posted By
bubis
on 2018-11-12
08:32:55
| Re: Wanting to get started with the Plus/4
Well, I think he already knows this is not a C64.
We don't have sprites, so he will not do sprite based effects, not a big deal.
We have much more flexibility to manipulate how bitmaps are rendered to the screen (ff1a/1b/1f), and we have a lot of colors, these are advantages over C64.
We don't have built in SID, but we have SID cards.
We have a faster drive if needed (1551), we even have a cutting edge irq loader for that (Bitfire+4).
Oh, and we have a faster CPU.
I think Plus/4 is a pretty good demo platform that hasn't shown it's full potential yet.
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Posted By
Lavina
on 2018-11-12
12:40:27
 | Re: Wanting to get started with the Plus/4
What Bubis said. With exclamation mark.
I would not say it's a letdown. Many of us devoted their lives to this hobby after all... C+4 is The Computer for me since the age of 10.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2018-11-12
19:43:47
| Re: Wanting to get started with the Plus/4
Plus/4 is a real computer and not just a games machine. 
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Posted By
MMS
on 2018-11-13
17:31:05
 | Re: Wanting to get started with the Plus/4
Agree with ALL above
( BTW there was a comment from someone I do not remember now, that autofire joysticks may cause that much problem because of some lame joystick interfaces, and those used GND instead of SELECT line on the din. Maybe true, maybe not.
Anyhow, there is Levente's fine review on the matter and suggests a protective interface, this article is almost perfect and very accurate, the usual high quality from Levente )
ftp://www.zimmers.net/pub/cbm/documents/projects/interfaces/plus4joy/plus4joy.html
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Posted By
Frederick
on 2018-11-14
20:15:20
| Re: Wanting to get started with the Plus/4
Thanks for all the replies! This has helped me out a lot, and I'll be back once I end up finally starting on my collection. So far my experience has really been limited to playing around in Yape, so I think it'll be nice to have a physical device to plug in and play with as well. I know that it's not the same as the C64 in most key respects, and that's one of the things that I really like about it as a platform. It feels a lot more "fun" than the C64, at least to me, and I think a lot of that comes down to trying to get so much out of a more simple and straightforward system without all the dedicated hardware that does things for you. To me, it's fun to have something that captures the essence of the Commodore computers I had as a child, but reduced down to the elements that made them feel uniquely Commodore; this way I get to sit in front of a nice new machine I've never really played around with, with the dog I never had as a boy, and just do stuff with a computer like I haven't since I was in grade school.
Beyond that, I think I have a lot of curiosity about the Plus/4 as a "what-if" sort of platform. I do wonder what would have happened had the Plus/4, rather than the C64, been the successor to the Vic-20. For one thing, I think it's easier to imagine a steady upgrade path into the 16-bit era similar to what happened with the Apple IIGS. I also remember when Commodore started fading away here in the US that other companies like CMD were trying to step in and keep the C64 alive, and I suspect that might have been more plausible with the Plus/4 given the lesser complexity (much like other companies and hobbyists were able to do with the ZX Spectrum). I also think that if there had been the kinds of titles for this machine that have been released in the past few years back in the 1980s things may have looked a lot different.
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