| Posted By
MMS
on 2017-01-29
13:41:59
 |  C= V364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
As per the request of our moderators (  ) I moved the topic of C=364 "revival" to a new topic.
So it will be a small discussion to collect the data and idea (dimensions, 3D drawing, sources, tool to be used, etc)
Probably it will take years to realize it, as technology develops it may become a reality to rebuilt a Plus/4 into a 364 housing.
So it is just a place of free discussion, any opinion counts (even those ones that list the potential problems, challenges, issues)
Stefan Egger wrote:
"I had a V364 case Project believe it or not. But I did not order the parts needed to complete it. Some are already designed like the number keypad (original V364 layout) and the Special function keys etc. I did not let it print either because of cost or maybe the fear to fail - or both. The first parts never fit 100% as you always have some mistake somewhere."
I asked a guy to duplicate the board he declined so I only could use a Plus4 as a Basis. I did that and it Looks very cool just the part of the F keys Need to be printed but again, I did not print them yet. I have some idea and files done but no final mod or product. Also would Need a PCB board for the number block and wire all the wires from the number keys on the Keyboard to the number block on the right side. That is not an easy Task, many wires are needed to achieve that. Even the Power LED is in other Position, I also re created this. So top case is almost ready (just not printed out) and the bottom is a bit difficult as it is longer and 5mm higher than a Plus4 but I cannot re create this easy. So it would be a bit less in height when you use Plus4 cases and not make a complete new case (not hard but very expansive I think). I am not sure how I can add pics to that but I can upload it here:
http://scacom.bplaced.net/Collection/bilder/projekte/v364
It's not the final product you see there. Just some tests how to expand Plus4 case to V364.
Well you Need serious skills and time to make a V364. It's not just a product out of the box, they Keyboard etc is made out of old PC Keyboard parts for example.
What could help is a keypad layout (someone can do that?) so we could connect the number Keyboard and get it working.
There are 2 ways, either use Plus4 cases / you Need 2) and do lot of cutting, glueing, sanding, painting etc. or you coult make a better file that is more accurate and print out a whole Computer but that is very expansive.
For now I did not go ahead with it because of the 3d printing cost. I want to have it accurate as possible and have all the v364 original measurements to do that."
And George's part is :
"The right and only logical way to do it, would be to 3D-print the case.
I could imagine an V386-Upgrade-set for a plus/4 with 3D-Modell (for printing the case and buttons on own cost at a printing store) and some boards, screws, labels or maybe a step-by-step PDF, with description for doing it at home.
There won't be many enthusiast, who will order a complete build V386.
I personally would like to have an upgraded Plus/4 this way done by myself.
In some years 3D-printing won't be as expensive as now."
My comments:
As I see the two biggest challenges are the housing and the working keyboard linked to the Plus/4 keyboard.
1) HOUSING
a) Make it with injection moulding tool is forgettable, the tool is just too expensive for few pieces. The original Plus/4 tools do not help either.
As far as I see from the orginal pictures, maybe the 364 never had a real moulding tool.
b) Printing from a 3D model with the current 3D printing method:
As I see, currently it just too big for the currently available non-pro technology.
CORR: I could find such a printing service, price is unknown, as we have no 3D model yet
https://i.materialise.com/3d-printing-materials
nice materials. Seems ABS fits the most for the task and hard for post-processing. Maybe thick resin? Just need painting.
(imagine titanium or brass housing. just kidding :-) )
As per my knowledge (and quick check on the net), the non-professional 3D printers (up to $2000 price) are not able to print anything longer that 22-25 cm.
The 364 case would be definitely wider than this.
Sure that there are printers able to to a bigger ize, but the price will be incredibly high.
So as I see it WILL be possible in few years for a limited price, but currently not feasible.
(I am not an expert, so if you are aware of such 3D printing service able to prins to big parts, just share with us, please !)
c) Printing parts, and put them together may result a kind of computer, but the part cannot be fit or glued together to be perfect, so there will be no so nice lines on the surface
Based on the pictures seems that Stefan has very good 3D modelling capabilities:
(that is a good point for future career, I ve never had the patience when I tried it with Caligary Truespace )
http://scacom.bplaced.net/Collection/3dbilder.php
2) A working numeric keyboard. (mechanism)
Sure thing, that we need to print the keys for the numeric keypad too, due to their special shape.
Even better, if we do not use a sticker, but a two colored printing, with white and black, and the numbers will never vanish. May look more professional, than the sticker. Laser engraving is not possible at our access level.
An 5x4 layout ready keyboard would be great for that, certainly the size need to be checked, but at least the mechanism is there. The enter may use two keys, though I know it may cause key jamming, if not pressed at the center.
Like this one (size to be checked, keys to be swapped):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-White-Keyboard-5x4-4x5-20-keys-Metal-Panel-SPST-Machine-Pushbutton-Switch-/140380863344?hash=item20af59fb70:g:AncAAOSw5ZBWHyue
2) Working numeric keyboard (electronics)
Could be also a challenge to link that new keys to the existing original cable, though this part of TED (keyboard matrix) is very well documented.
Sure thing, that it will be just a paralell working keys, with equivalent position in keymap as the original oned.
probably could be done with a passtrough connectorm that may accept the oroginal flat cable and from the side may link the nex key to the connector... or waht...
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Posted By
George
on 2017-01-28
13:04:24
 | Re: C=364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
Great idea withs this post, MMS.
I am really fascinated of this topic. First of rebulid a V364 and second of finding a way doing it with as little costs as possible.
1) Lets assume there is a digital 3D-Model. What would it cost to let print the two parts of the case from a professional Comapny with a Big 3d Printer? I have no idea. In Germany there a dozens of companies doing this.
2) Mabe there is another way by CNC. You let make the parts of wood or plastic and paint them. A little Apple I one feeling..
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Posted By
George
on 2017-01-29
05:41:04
| Re: C=364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
two interesting sites i found ( german) :
3druck.com (everything about 3d-printing)
RapidObject.com (online calculation for a prototype by uploading 3d Data)
Example for a avatar : 99 Eur
i estimate for the case and buttons between 100 and 200 Eur
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Posted By
George
on 2017-01-29
10:43:59
| Re: C=364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
Two interesting sites i found:
www.3druck.com (everything about 3d-printing)
www.RapidObject.com (online calculation for a prototype by uploading 3d Data)
Example for a Avatar : 99 Eur
I estimate for the case and buttons between 100 and 200 Eur
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Posted By
crock
on 2017-01-29
12:25:47
 | Re: C=364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
A couple of other challenges to stick on the list.
The voice chip used in the V364 is the same one used in the Magic Voice cartridge for the 64, which are available but it would be a shame to have to sacrifice them to make a V364. Toshiba made many speech chips over the years, so it would be nice to find something that was compatible but easier to source.
The second is the gate array that serves as the glue logic between the 264 kernal and the speech chip.
Gaia did a lot of work on both some years ago and I discussed it briefly with him when I first got my V364. He'll need to comment but I think the gate array is understood to the point where modern implementations could be feasible.
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Posted By
George
on 2017-01-29
12:55:49
| Re: C=364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
@Crock: You are the guy, who repaired the V364-mainboard on yutube. I really enjyoed that video. You mentioned, that you need a case.. I generally love your youtube-Videos.
We concentrated so far on "just" expanding a plus/4 to a 364 case, since Stefan Egger didn't found a way to reproduce a 364 mainboard.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2017-01-29
13:43:16
| Re: C=364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
1) I modified the topic name to refer to V364
2) Well, actually on the v364 introduction on the yotutube it was visible, that the Magic Voice is mainly just an EPROM chip inside with the speech samples (???).
I supposed the C64 expansion utilises some independent 4 bit voice generator that is mixed to SID or TED sound, but no. It was purely done by the SID (and TED).
That's why there were no music in the background in the games supported the Magic Voice card on C64 (Wizard of Wor, and an Invader clone).
Yeah, wemay throw out the 3+1 ROM (as 364 should not have it) and swap it with a SAM EPROM module (you can start with F1 button)
Same speech quality, no gate arrays, similar syntax and VOILA
(While I understand "full reincarnation" approach, and my words seems to be a blashemy:
As even those mentioed games do not exist on Plus/4, and noone will create them, we do not loose any single programs's support with this approach, but will get a very same functionaly without pain. Actually we should keep in mind the basic users ("v364 kit"), and anyhow it will be a +4 in a 364 housing, somehow simulating it's function)
I am NOT against of any full reproduction, but it will be too complex for average users, as I see. Most of the guys do not have Solder's, BSZ or Hifi's soldering talent :-)
(In fact, in my daily work the PERFECT result is sometimes just a dream. If it fulfill the functionality and standard, and Customers do not feel anything from the miniature differences, or do not influence short/long term capababilities or customer satisfaction: it is OK. And we get back only 3-4 pieces from a million pieces of product we made. I hope you get my point)
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Posted By
crock
on 2017-01-29
15:41:40
| Re: C= V364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
MMS, it is my V364 in that video on youtube and I don't know what you saw, but it's not just an EPROM. To your points:
1) The speech synthesis is done by a dedicated Toshiba T6721A speech synthesis chip and is not done by SID on the 64 or TED in the 264. They play no part in the speech at all.
2) The EPROM contains the phonemes that comprise the vocabulary, not samples, and IIRC neither is it visible to the CPU. The EPROM is only accessed by the T6721A.
3) The mixing of the speech output and the native sound is purely analogue and is done on the V364 mainboard and in the magic voice cartridge. This is why the MV has audio in and audio out jacks.
4) The gate array is fundamental to it's operation, and is what the 264 kernal talks to by exposing 4 registers at $FD20-23 (I think).
5) As to no software support, yes there is. It's called BASIC V3.5, all the support for the speech commands is already there.
Could it be replaced by something simpler? Certainly. But before someone tackles that, you need to understand the principles by which the original works if you want it to seamlessly integrate.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2017-01-29
15:47:57
| Re: C= V364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
OK, my bad! it seems I did not spent enough time to understad the logic behind. sorry!
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Posted By
George
on 2017-01-29
17:10:43
| Re: C= V364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
I am still wondering, if its now possible to add more words to the vocabulary of the 364...
The speech ability of the 364 is really fascinating, but expanding a plus/4 with it??? Not cheap and not easy it think...
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2017-01-30
12:21:34
| Re: C= V364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
@George: we don't have documentation for the phoneme data. It would be difficult to make our own customized speech without that documentation.
All I have found so far is "ripping" speech data from the C64 programs that support Magic Voice. I sent SVS some Magic Voice documentation and a .d64, so that he can add the V364 equivalent information to his Ultimate Map.
If you want to try it yourself:
1. locate Magic Voice speech data from a C64 program (the site I "borrowed" from is offline, so I can't link)
2. Set YAPE to V364, and tick the Toshiba box
3. LOAD "vocab data",8,1
4. VOC(24576) : REM load address of Magic Voice data. CBM documentation says this is 32768 on a C64
5. SAY 1024 : REM custom words start at 1024. Built-in words are 0 through 260
@MMS: Bo Zimmer claims that his V364 has 3+1. His V364 is one of the CES prototypes (3+1 did not exist yet), so 3+1 was obviously added by a Commodore engineer at some later point.
http://www.zimmers.net/cbmpics/cv364.html
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Posted By
MMS
on 2017-01-30
14:07:34
| Re: C= V364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
Thanks for the info.
Actually 3+1 in a 364 suprised me too.
The 364 project cancelled before the reduced 3+1 ROM created, but 364 had a lot of empty ROM slots on crock's video.
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2017-01-30
16:35:54
| Re: C= V364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
It's more than possible to add more words to the V364/magic Voice. We "merely" need to implement the PARCOR filter encoding. I experimented with this earlier using the SPTK (http://sp-tk.sourceforge.net/). Note that the V364/magic Voice ROMs contain the PARCOR filter coefficients in a (yet undeciphered) compressed format but it's still perfectly possible to feed the T6721A using uncompressed data since that is how the real stuff works as well (decompressing on the fly). I still have all the uncompressed data dumps in case someone is interested, as I actually used those to reverse engineer the PARCOR speech synthesis of the T6721A. Many years ago I sent some of them, along with the bit format to Stefan Uhlmann and he hosted it on his very informative website. Alas, it is no longer online, but as always, archive.org comes to the rescue:
http://web.archive.org/web/20131206092645/http://www.stefan-uhlmann.de/cbm/MVM/Speechdata/index.html
In an ideal case, phonemes could be synthesized using the PARCOR synthesis and those very condensed phonemes could be used to implement any kind of speech. It would probably occupy a lot less memory than the usual, old fashioned stuff (SAM etc.).
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Posted By
George
on 2017-01-31
19:24:25
| Re: C= V364 revival project? (Plus/4 in new housing+Num keyboard)
@gaia
Thank you..i was just doing research on that topic and you came with the links i coulnd find..
I have to admitt..the topic is far to high for my intelligence. But I will give a try.
Edit: I cant download the content from the first link. Does anybody have the files for experimenting ?
Edit2: Now download works.
As far as i understood the problem so far (please correct me) from Stefans site, the excact unkompressed 48 bit LPC Format for Magic voice is unknown or can not be reproduced for making own phonemes (!?). So if we have it one day, we could let Magic Voice say anything we want.
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