Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Year after year, era after era, anybody who decided to create something that would run on a C16 or Plus/4, had to deal with that horrible questionmark: what with the audio stuff?
We tried anything. We tried to use rudimentary music editors like Sequential Circuit or Music Editor or Music-16 trying to keep us away from playing like an alarm clock; we tried the BASIC commands, but the results were...basic too; we tried to use the samples like in Rock Editor V1.3 but the screen had to get off when playing and the memory got wasted; then, we've stolen the best tunes from the commercial games, and somebody else had coded his own player, say Ern0, but that spaghetti code would be quite far from being spreaded in the scene. We've stolen and reduced the SID files to be played by two poor voices, then mixed to seem like three, sometimes with unhearable results, sometimes composing music on converted C64 editors just to have a working tool...eventually playing on 2 voices only; we've followed this way, using little slices of digitized SID audio to improve the quality, but the rastertime went away like hot cakes. When crossplatform tools made inroads, somebody coded his own TEDsound music player, and the code has been easily distributed as source, but the usage of those tools often looked like obscure and difficult, hence only few dudes did challenge the beast obtaining their results.
We tried anything, but now we can stop doing with what we have, because times are changing again! As promised days before, Degauss/TEK has just released the Protracker-ish tool he used to compose the music for masterpieces like the multiprized Rocket Science and the incoming Majesty Of Sprites. Ladies, gentlemen, here it is: Knaecketraecker!
Knaecketraecker version 0.2b is the first proper crossplatform TEDsound tracker ever. It allows editable multispeed, partial and global playback via TEDplay (included in the installation package), .ASM/.BIN/.PRG file exporting, single instruments I/O in order to build up your own sound database, virtual 3rd voice editing, claviature mimicking to easily enter the notes and many other friendly features. It comes with a brief manual and several example tunes. Classic trackers' experts out there shall have no difficulties to easily understand it and bring out the best in Knaecketraecker, whereas a certain training time is needed to beginners and to editors' addicted, just to get accustomed to the usage of pattern lines vs. groove in order to get out the best from it, especially using the virtual 3rd channel at its best.
If someone didn't read the relative thread in the forum, Degauss has released this great tool under the request of Mad/BKN, who announced the needing of contributions in order to have the game music to be included in the final release of his Majesty Of Sprites. Hence, time has come, to learn all the inner secrets of Knaecketraecker, show what you're able to do with it and join the BKN's great job!
Thanks again to Degauss for having placed another milestone along the path in the history of our beloved Plus/4. And now, time's ticking out, download Knaecketraecker and start handling it as a real pro. Show us your real potential dealing with TEDsound!
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Mh, I'm quite sure that the first music done with it will come from outside the core of our scene.
Along these years, I mostly used the TLCplay, with some intrusions into LODplay old version and the TEDchip Music Player by 4-MAT, which is strictly an editor: build up instruments, use'em into patterns with duration, then use the patterns into tracks. Using an editor is a technical approach, because you know exactly _when_ that particular sound is playing (and with "when" I mean: into which frame of my 2x tune). Do you remember the sentences sounding like:"Adventures In Time sometimes seems to play with a 3rd voice"? Heh, that achievement has been performed the way I described above.
As I pointed out from the news, Knaecketraecker is a real tracker, and this means it's focused on the music itself, less technique and more feeling. The note duration has been put as a secondary variable in building up a pattern, and the groove table is used in order to mix up'em all. At a first glance, I would have been tempted to place an unique "groove" value, in order to set me free counting any pattern frame as "1" and actually use it as a pass-1 editor, but, you can see, that's not the right approach to unveil all the potential of that tool! And that's why, after a first close contact with it, I have decided to face it later with no hurry, let's become acquainted slowly with it.
Said that, people with a Protracker (et similia) background will find themselves comfortably into it, and that's why I predict that the first true examples of Knaecketraecker made tunes will come from outside the Plus/4 scene, theory supported by observing who're the most active dudes spreading news about this release Apropos, hope that someone has shown the tracker to YERZMYEY, I'm expecting great results from him
Ok buds, I say it's time to begin playing with this monster a bit more, have a good training!
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! I really can't judge on this, because i never used an editor. Nonetheless i believe there are not that big conceptual differences between trackers and editors. Knaecketraecker however is mostly a blend of protracker and some other amiga tool i loved so much: AHX (http://amigascne.org/abyss/ahx/ give it a look, its nice!).
Moreover this tool was made for my personal purposes in the first place, so it reflects my view on trackers and music in general - and i'm starting to realize that my view of things might be different from the common way of looking at it.
On the other side, its all in there what Luca pointed out: Instruments that get played in patterens which get allocated to three tracks and get arranged in a sequence. IMO the best approach to this tool is: Load one of the sample songs, make changes, hit "play" and see what happens.
P.S.: There are two-to-three things that seem to be very confusing to most ppl:
a) The groove-values. They just an "extended" version of how you specify the songs tempo. You can set them to have all the same value (say: 4) and you have your standard-chiptune-tempo
b) Instruments are handled more like samples than real instruments. There are no sustain/release points or something resembling keydown/keyup-events.
c) Since there is no sustain/release, you also don't enter durations in instruments, patterns or sequence. E.g. in patterns, the duration between two events is defined by the empty space between them. This is completely different to approaches where you enter a note with a duration. Here you place a note, leave space (=duration) and then place the next note. Reason: i'm used to this from protracker AND drum-programming is more convenient (programming drums with the note+duration-approach is hardly manageble)
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! I haven't had a chance to have a look at it yet as I've been a bit busy but hopefully soon. That means, even with my tracker background the first tune will not come from me, unless you want Twinkle Twinkle Little C116.
As Degauss says, the best way to get in to something like this is to mess about with other peoples tunes and your soon find things out for your self. It doesn't matter if it's Twinkle Twinkle Little Star done with one voice, it's a start and things will only improve with each new tune you create.
If things take off we may see a MUSIC section in the site menu above which could also include both TED & SID. An A-Z of tunes on demand!
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Oh Wow. Great News. Can't wait for all the tunes comming out of this tool. btw: are there any examples that I can load into to see how they are maide and how the 3 channles sounds likes?
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Yeah there are 7 examples included which are cool, hit LOAD to find them. Load "RSA3" to hear what sounds like 3 voices playing, drums, bass and little ditty, very neat!
Just a quick word on playback... You can't see what's currently playing note for note in real time like Protracker, you can only hear.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! It's very early days so forgive my ignorance.
I need to do some more home work and messing about, I'm half way there but I think we need an extra command in the instrument generator to stop a sound from looping as in the "le" command.
What I'm looking for is for something to allow a sound to "continue" playing without ever looping, unless I want it to loop. With a sound that keeps playing like SOUND1,596,1000 you can use tricks in the pattern track to cut it off by either inserting another note, inserting a note you can not hear such as SOUND1,1023,1, or make a sound that has no volume at all and insert that as a note...
If I want to play a pure TED sound of say SOUND1,596,1000 I can't as all you can do is have a snip of that sound on a constant loop such as SOUND1,596,1 and it forever replays that sound from the very start spoiling the over all tone.
I will look some more though just in case I have missed something obvious. :)
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Not really sure what the problem is.. You can make ls/le on a fixed volume in the instruments volume column, so the instrument keeps playing, till its stopped by another note.. Is this helpful?
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! I tried using "ls" but it only allows "le" and nothing else.
Ok, let me put it another way. A basic TED sound does not continue to play once it has been triggered but instead is re-triggered on a loop which is set to the fixed timing of your Pattern.
00 PT 00 LE 8 LE With the sound fixed to the timing of a pattern the note does not continue to play but instead loops for the amount of time it is "allowed" to play for. This changes the tone of the original sound.
How it is set up right now is perfect for making new sounds as you want to change each element of a sounds make-up, and yes you want it to loop. PERFECT.
So again, you can not trigger a sound to keep playing without the sound being re-triggered when it comes to note length. Imagine taking the LE command out of a sound, a sound should continue playing from the first or rather last trigger. To be honest this only applies to the classic TED sound at this time.
If this is not making any sense at all then don't worry about it. There is plenty to be getting on with as it is.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Hi MIK!
Apologies: I really try hard to understand your point, but i fear i'm not getting it entirely. From what you wrote however i think i'm spotting a general misconception on how you look at the instruments section. I'm trying to put it into brief words:
- There are no lengths/durations to be set. Duration emerges out of itself as you repeat values over and over again. E.g. in the vol-portion: F F F F 0 => short sound, F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F 0 => longer sound.
- Instruments are not defined the way you might be used to from other programs. KT-Instruments are more like samples: One value for every player-call.
- There is no "LS". The range between "L" and "E" is the loop and it is looping forever. As Mad pointed out: where "L" and "E" sits on the same row, its like defining the END of a sound.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! This might sound a bit silly but it's not...
I understand what your saying and know exactly what you have done, how it works. Very cool it is too. It's just the lead sound might not be as impressive as it could be with the constant looping during longer notes being played. I will play around some more and see what I can come up with.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Hi MIK!
Yes, this is a tradeoff: In other trackers (fasttracker2 i believe) you might find a more musical approach to define instruments: You still can have one loop (with options: forward, backward, ping-pong) and the possibility to trigger something like "key release" that will exit the loop. KT currently has nothing like this...
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Since I installed it, I didnt' get into to seriously give it a try, I only played a hour with it just the first time to see how it works, and at the moment I'm lacking courage in affording it again. What scares me is the usage of the M channel and how to really use it, I always did the spreading between the two channels by myself in my mind into a 2x frame environment, should I use it as an alternative for channels 0 and 1 when low ranked sounds are required, or may I use al the three in the same pattern's row? Anyway, the sentence above is not a question, just to say that I have to put my hands on that beast in a transport of high faith in myself, and see what happens
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! I haven't even touched the 3rd channel because I think in the same way. Your building the song up in your mind knowing full well what the limits are which is also true of what you see on screen.
The thing is..., you can not re-create a classic game tune like Exorcist in an identical way to the original. That's because the Groove control prevents this from happening as it tweaks the timing of your song by opening up spaces, and this is where the 3rd channel can come in useful. That's how it potentially works.
Just remember channel 1 is Tone only, Channel 2 is Tone & Noise.
If you get the time, lay something basic down and start messing with the groove controls. You may find the effects very interesting and may give you idea's for future stuff.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! @MIK: *mumble* maybe you're right and I simply don't fully get what you meant, but my sentence would point to a strict technical habit: using a 2x tune in a 4 frame based minimum duration (groove length 1, groove 4) means that the shortest note you play does 4 channel 0 calls interact with 4 channel 1, and this would allow all the weird instruments you can hear in my TED tunes In this Knaecketraecker, the technical approach above is useless: you have to keep in mind that your instuments will interact in the way the instruments are built up framecall per framecall, then put altogether to play into, say, 4 framed patterns. All this means: much more melody and music to play, much less fine calculations of how the x2 calls interact at any frame.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! at first a big thanx to Degauss for sharing this t00l with us! =) now my problem... yesterday i've made my first steps with Knaecketraecker but when i want to replay my testpattern it starts to play somwhere in the middle of the pattern and not from the beginning!?! this is very confusing...
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! "Play", plays the song from its current position you have been editing. If you load a song and do not edit any pattern it will also play a song from the very start.
"Play Pat" plays only the current pattern from the very start and loops back to the start of that current pattern once it reaches the end.
"Play All" plays the entire song from the very start. Use this to playback songs you are working on if you wish to hear it from the start.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! @5tarbuck: maybe I meant what you've written, and I've just sent my question to Degauss. Probably you, like me, have set the l-e pattern loop from the beginning to the end row of a pattern, just like the author has done, for example, in the instruments:
PT C-1 l PT C-1 PT C-1 PT E-1 PT E-1 PT E-1 PT G-1 PT G-1 PT G-1 e <---- last note to play, then back to l
My attempt tunes sound in synchro only if I close the pattern putting 'e' into the first row which doesn't have to be played, and not into the last row to play, different from the instruments' l-e. My hypotesis is supported by the fact that in a standard pattern length of 40 ($00-$3F), you can place your 'e' in the row beyond $3F. Overall, the l-e cycle seems to work in different ways between instruments, tracks and pattern.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Yeah! I could imagine this tune can be taken for the "prehistoric" world.. I think we need two tunes per world (for every level one tune) so also this tune with a slight variaton to it would be nice for the second level of the world.. (dunno if there is enough disc mems for 2 songs per world, let's see).
@Corpsicle: do you think we can use this tune for the game (or is the quality too low?(i like it))? i think i would be happy with it!
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! @Mad: oh my. well i definitely didnt have the game in mind when making this, and its basicly just a doodle to test out the functions in the tracker. I would definitely want to work on it more if its gonna be included. =)
Is there any deadline at all for this? Just so i know what my ambitions should be.
@MIK: It should be "One Girl Army" if included in Majesty of Sprites though ? =D
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! @Corpsicle: the deadline is somehow at the beginning of august (we will release it at evoke in germany), however we need many songs.. and everyone which is halfway acceptable is one step further to a complete soundtrack for the game .
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Mad: I saw that the corpsicle's tune uses the 'M' channel quite intensely, hence there's no problem in using it, although you've written you would need a barely free M channel, am I right?
I remember to all of you, that Degauss has to release a fixed version, and probably that file won't run the same on it, I suggest to wait these few hours before enterprising a new song
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Yea im just having a note play all the time in the M channel as a sort of throbbing bassline. (the trick was to set the velocity of the note low so it doesn't get priority over everything else.) In the song for the game i will probably make more sensible use of the M channel.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! I hope the download works, it was the first file share site I found where I didn't have to sign up... I did try and upload it to commodore16.com forum but there was nothing there suggesting Baz or Chris have to approve it to make it live?
One more for the collection and something a little different, after a number of name changes I called it icecream in the end. It loops after a number of patterns and does not use the "M" channel at all. It's not as clean as I would of liked it so forgive that side of it.
Would be cool if Csabo could see if it's possible for us to upload such small files to share right here. Just a couple of bytes or nothing bigger than a .D64 file for forum sharing reasons. That way the contents will always be here for future reference.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Luca: I didn't check the song in the game. Could be that it's no problem to have several notes in the m channel. Will check that now..
Corpsicle: Just implemented the track for a test.
I dunno, it is not too bad, the effects are only stopped if a new note is played on the m channel, so it's probably a good practize to not play too much on the m channel. The result is quite ok i think: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6221307/mos/mossoundv2.d64 The sound effects have all a low volume at the moment.
BTW: Degauss the export to asm doesn't work, there are several compiler errors when assembling this. I took the song.asm from the app directory.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! @Mik: Great tune! Much more suitable for the game than mine. =) Getting very inspired to make more harmonic stuff now. Working on one that is definitely going in the "eerie" direction.
Plus4 tracking is taking off! Next year at revision theyre gonna have to have a a compo just for TED tunes. =D
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! First of all, congrats to corpsicle and MIK for their efforts, I've liked both very much!
I see that Mad is demanding for speed over quality, due to the deadline (first days in August) Anyway, I'm for letting corpsicle to improve that tune and modeling another similar for the twin level: his feedback has been so quick that we can predict long time for him to get into it better and better
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! @MIK: Another wow-moment for me. I like your tune and i also think it'd fit the game very well. @Mad: will look after the export-issue today. maybe theres a new version today.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Thanks guys, glad you liked it.
It's early days yet and things can only get better the more tunes that are released. Everyone will get a bigger picture of what is possible.., and will hopefully be inspired. The more tunes the bigger the overall voice library will be.
One question remains, will they sound the same on the actual hardware be it emulation or real iron?
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Considering sound: My impression was, that if you take a high sample-rate for playback (96Khz), it sounds almost 100% like real iron. I'm judging from sound effects i did with 2x or 4x-speed.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Bah! Bah! 5tarbuck has placed a killer one, great tune, one very fitting in the game, congrats!
If I can suggest: use vibratos in the sustain part of your instruments, especially the one in the high pitched lead voice. You based instrument 01 to C-0 in order to change the notes in the pattern editor, landing to the ending volume with the 'le'. To me, the best would have been ending with a vibrato loop, for example based not on C-0 but on, let's say, D-0, in order to have:
PT D-0 l 2 le PT D-0+2 0 PT D-0 0 PT C#0+2 e 0
Of course, all the pattern should have been consequently transposed...
You can barely have a similar result cheating in order to avoid changing everything in there ;) Use a +1 only and who cares ;) Your instrument 01 should be changed in:
06 PT C-0 l 2 le 07 PT C-0 0 08 PT C-0+1 0 09 PT C-0+1 e 0
Just to be really clear: it's a suggested option only, of course you do as you decide to
Degauss I think I spotted another little bug: using CTRL and +/- to change the quarters on one row, keeps memory of the value selected even in the next row. Example: you have all rows with C-0, if you transpose row 0 to C-0+1, doing the same to row 01 will let it change straight from C-0 to C-0+2! Just like the program did preserve the memory of the previous move
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! @Starbuck Very cool tune Starbuck! Has that classic cute platform quality about it as if it was made for a Flimbo's Quest or Mayhem In Monsterland type game on C64. Great effort and love your lead sound.
@mad Sorry about that, when I checked it did work but yeah it was also trying to get you to download some file browsing crap if you didn't look properly. Not intended of course by me. It's one more for the ever growing collection of tracker tunes any way and glad you liked it.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Thanks Degauss.
Not that this makes any difference to making music...
Just to explain that Knaecketraecker is set in the music key of A. This means when you play the note C, it is in fact playing the note A or would be playing an A on a real Piano. Why this might be is to allow the use of a couple of the lower bass notes that would be other wise out of reach. To be honest this is what you really want more so than having extra unusable higher notes. Having the PC keyboard play a C on key Z is how all trackers are set up just for ease of use..
All this really means though is that if you have a Synthesiser/Keyboard, set the overall transpose to -3 and you can play along with what your creating in Knaecketraecker.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Great tool. Hope I will be able to use it Maybe this track will be cool to be covered to TED Version: https://soundcloud.com/h0ffman/hoffman-wave-stepper
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! It is one of the demo songs of the tracker. As Degauss already said, it sounds a little bit different on TED machines. (Actually, I didn't listen to it on a real machine, only in the tracker, but there really seems to be difference in tone).
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! That Diaminds sounds like a "High Score" / "Game Over" track. Imagine a big red Sun set, Beach, Palm Trees and some character in shadow who is chilling out with a soft drink... A well deserved after a long days work tune. Nice one again 5tarbuck.
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Uhuuuu, still more secrets have to be further discovered The combination of groove+groove length can choose which frames of our instruments will be played on priority at that given framerate song.
Let's say, we have a 2x tune that simply play at one single groove length, with groove 6. Using for example length 2 with grooves 4 and 8 will run the music at the same overall speed, but it would underline some played frames than others. I suggest a play'n'trigger test session to decide how to set'em
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! As usual i want to share my .kps files with you. Here you can get my tunes for "The Lands of Zador": http://5tarbuck.net/stuff/mos2-kps.rar so you can see/hear/manipulate it... =)
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! Apropo, who asked once for a .kps repository? You, Mad? And did I answer to you that the official Knaecketracker page would be the best place? Otherwise we might evaluate the addon of a new .KPS source type to download from the respective software entries, eh Csabo?
Re: Knaecketraecker: First TEDsound Tracker Ever! I think it was Mad. Mad and i talked about that it would be great to have a .kps collection on plus4world. But i think it makes more sense to have the tunes on the Knaecketraecker-page...