| Posted By
MIRKOSOFT
on 2014-01-26
07:41:59
|  V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
Hi!
I began flirting with Z80 CPU in C128.
I'm C128 programmer and when I began flirt with Z80 in C128 began my interest in 7501/8501 CPUs in 264 series.
Currently I'm 65xx CPUs programmer and 65816 too learning Z80 and its use in C128 without CP/M. Interest in 264 series CPUs began when I found some differences between them and 65xx series...
In my interest are at top machines V364 and 264 also +4...
I have few Qs about differences in ROM checksum and it's check at machine run.
Of course I can test it only in VICE or YAPE (I'm not sure if is in YAPE possible to emulate 364 and 264 and 116).
Qs:
16 and 116 are hardware identical - but they can have different ROM checksum - where is possible to check it at run?
364 ROMs checksum must to be totally different 'cause it has built-in speech module which is missing in all 264 series models - so almost same Q: how to check it at run?
Last Q is about 264 computer and difference between it and +4:
+4 has standardly built-in applications which were finally released to market.
264 was only prototype before go to market. From advertisements I found that 264 computer could have built-in applications by users choice.
So, +4 has the same ROM checksum always - is possible to find different checksum in 264?
Really to compare with +4 checksum and how to do it at run?
Thank you all for every help, I'm here new.
Miro
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2014-01-27
23:45:36
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
I think you're overthinking the 264 series.
Imagine an empty egg carton, one that holds 8 eggs in a 2x4 rectangle. Arrange the carton so that you have two rows, four spaces per row. Now number the columns 0 through 3:
0H 1H 2H 3H
0L 1L 2L 3L
This is how ROM is arranged in the 264 series -- two ROMS fill one bank. Basic and the Kernal reside in Bank 0 slots Low and Hi. The 3+1 software (if present) resides in Bank 1 slots Low and Hi.
A game cartridge (such as a Scott Adams adventure) would reside in Bank 2 Low since it fits in 16k, while a larger cartridge (such as Script/Plus or LOGO) would reside in Bank 2 Low and Hi.
On the V364, the speech ROM resides in Bank 3 Low.
So to answer your first comment: there's no *single* ROM to calculate a checksum for! If you want to be complete, you need to bank in the various configurations and check for the presence of a ROM.
I'll give you some shortcuts. Not as thorough, but you can make basic assumptions this way. 
PRINT PEEK(1332) to get the Top Of Memory pointer for Basic. 63 = 16k system, 127 = 32k system, 253 = 64k system.
You *only* need to test for 3+1 if PEEK(1332) returns 253. PRINT PEEK(1525) will return 162 if 3+1 is installed (probably a Plus/4) or 0 if not installed (most likely a 264 or V364). Other software in Bank 1 ROM could return other results, but since Commodore never released 264s with other software in Bank 1, I would consider this possibility a customized machine. 
If PEEK(1332) = 253 and PEEK(1525) = 0, then you can test for a V364 by checking the reserved variable RDY. -1 if speech is present, 0 if not present.
Checking the Kernal release number (rather than calculating a checksum for Basic and Kernal) requires 3 commands. Do them exactly in this order, DO NOT ADD ANYTHING BETWEEN THE POKES.
63000 POKE 1177, 62
63010 KR = PEEK(65408)
63020 POKE 1177, 63
63030 PRINT KR
KR will contain a number between 1 and 5 on an NTSC machine, or between 129 and 133 on a PAL machine. (Meaning: bit 7 high for PAL, bit 7 low for NTSC, the lower bits are the Kernal version.)
You can presume that if you detect 16k and KR < 128, you're on a Commodore 16 (sold in North America). 16k and KR > 128 only means you're in PAL-land, both the 16 and 116 were sold in Europe.
I have no idea if there is any major difference between Kernal versions, all my machines have Kernal 5. If you look around this site for SVS's Ultimate ROM Map, I'm sure SVS documented the Kernal changes there.
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Posted By
MIRKOSOFT
on 2014-01-27
07:16:55
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
Thank you.
It first true lesson how to overview the 264 series.
Really I must to say that 264 series is very different to other Commodore computers.
In my mind is always Q: Why the 264 series failed?
In my opinion of advantages and disatvantages of 264 series overview is here:
Advantages:
- graphics - much better than VIC I or II chip, but missing sprites
- free RAM for Basic
- keyboard design - in case of V364 extra perfect
Disatvantages:
- 7501/8501 CPU - not compatible to 65xx series
- sound - TED is universal device, graphics are great, sound not
I'll learn more, thank you for this lesson.
Miro
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2014-01-27
12:40:10
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
"Really I must to say that 264 series is very different to other Commodore computers.
In my mind is always Q: Why the 264 series failed?"
The 264 series did not fail -- Plus/4 World and Commodore16.com are testaments to its popularity.
The 264 series, as originally envisioned by the Tramiels, were two machines: a low-cost 16k "learning" machine and a fully-featured 64k "business" machine. Neither was intended to compete with the C64's status as a "game" machine.
However, shortly after Jack Tramiel showed the 264 at Winter CES (January 1984), he and his sons left Commodore. With no Tramiels to guide the company, Commodore mutated the 264 project to where it no longer resembled Jack's vision.
Tramiel's original US plan (European plan may have differed):
US$49 -- Commodore 116
US$199 -- Commodore 64 for homes
US$249 -- Commodore 264 for business (customer would select one built-in program appropriate to their needs)
If Tramiel had authorized the 232 and V364 for production, they would have fit in at US$149 and US$299.
What Commodore actually did (European markets may have differed, I don't know the 116's retail price):
US$99 -- Commodore 16 (in VIC-20/64 "breadbox" case to cut costs even more)
US$199 -- Commodore 64
US$299 -- Commodore Plus/4 (with 3+1)
Effectively, Commodore raised the prices of the 264 series $50 from Jack's plan.
Stores in the US did not educate customers. We compared pamphlets or looked at the box. The 16 looked like a 64, the Plus/4 was sold as a 64k machine PLUS built-in software. The 64, while not as pretty, had more software and accessories available.
Why would a possible Commodore 16 customer pay $99 when they could get 4x the memory for $50-100 more? And why would a possible Plus/4 customer pay $299 when they could get a comparable machine, only lacking built-in software, for 1/3 to 1/2 less?
It did not help that the 264s were not accessory-compatible with the 64. We could not use the 64's tape drive (1530), we needed a 1531. We could not use standard joysticks at $10-15 each, we needed the special Commodore 1341s at $25 each. The 64's readily-available 1541 disk drive supposedly wouldn't work on the 264s "because the 16 and Plus/4 disk drive uses a different plug" -- which IS true of the 1551, but US dealers didn't have 1551s to sell. The 1551 disk drive was only sold in Europe, and not until a year after the Plus/4 and 16 were available! 
Almost 30 years on, thanks to the Internet, we finally learn the background stories behind the 264 series. Check Bill Herd's c128.com for a few, and watch his YouTube videos. In one of his videos, he states that the 128's "64 compatibility" arose from the Plus/4 and 16 not being compatible with any other Commodore machines.... so in a way, the Plus/4 is responsible for the 128 being 3 computers in one.
FWIW, the 7501/8501 are software compatible with the 65xx other than memory locations 0 and 1 -- these are on-processor registers, just like on the 64's 6510 and 128's 8502. Otherwise your comparison is correct.
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Posted By
MIRKOSOFT
on 2014-01-28
02:02:20
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
I wrote that 264 Series failed in eyes of market results for Commodore as manufacturer.
These computers are in my eyes very good computer line...
In my eyes is really C64 only game and music machine...
i'm 128'er - yes, I started my computer-living on other computer: Didaktik M (Czechoslovak ZXS clone), then I got my C64 - I was programming very rare games, much more system utilities and own software to enhance at that time current computer - C64...
When I got first C128 I was surprised how much powerful is this machine and when I found how much can be expanded and modified I must to say "C64 is toy, expandable only for music..." - in case of customizing it needs to say that no one chip could be changed without soldering - I know late models had socketted chips...
I know that if will read these words any C64 fan I'll be marked as moron... but true is true...
To C128 I want to say that I never knew why designers were not inspired by +4 or even 364 keyboard layout and only for compatibility created main part of keyboard same as C64... now I know that 264 Series keyboard matrix is totally different. Most important - direction keys were inspired by B series, later was this mistake repaired in never released C65...
Availability of 1551 or SFS-481 is for me when I read it like madness - computers designed to this drive needed to work 1541 (worst drive from Commodore, by C64 users always most popular). Parallel data transfer is always dream of C128 users too (only two solutions it provides - CMD-HD with RAMLink and Rear Admiral drives) - again Q: C128 needed to be so compatible to C64 that couldn't support 1551?
But back to 264 series:
TED as graphic chip is great - 121 colors (128 if I add luminance levels of black which are the same), resolution same as VIC-II is much better solution also when sprites are missing...
VIC-IIe is enhanced VIC-II with support of Real Interlace: 320×400 and 5 new colors - not available on C64...
VDC is really different device and in my list absolute on top - and there are sprites also missing, so I know that sprites are not everything and if I can compare VIC-II and TED as graphic device excluding comparison of sprites: TED is winner...
If I compare TED as sound device to SID - there is nothing to say.
Only my Q is here: Why didn't used designers SID chip too in 264 Series and result could be 6 channel audio (maybe I wrote mistake - 3 channels of TED)...
Of course when we look at 264 Series as bussiness computers - sound is not important...
My interesting into 264 Series began at checking exact model - before some words in this topic I didn't knew how to recognize 264 and 364, still don't know how to do it with 16 and 116...
Later (I'm coder of The Ace operating system for C128) I began compare graphics - TED vs VDC - when I got 256 colors mode for VDC real comparing also to VIC-II...
Few months I began with learning coding the Z80 - inside C128 - no other machine and without CP/M... my flirt with Z80 got me Q:
Was incompatibility of 65xx sereis to 7501/8501 so fatal for 264 Series fall? (about fail I wrote, so please don't correct me here)
This topic got me answer that incompatibility is only in CPU status line (address 0 and 1).
And now I know that my own preparing BIOS for 128, 64, VIC20 can be adjusted also for 264 Series and will be universal for most known Commodore 8-bit computers.
But problem is here: I need to discover Kernal of 264 Series - here is my Q again - all models have same Kernal - in answer to this topic - where I get Kernal description of 264 Series?
As last I want to write, please don't be angry if I did mistake or written something not true, correct me, don't mark me as moron - every human can do mistake...
Miro
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Posted By
SVS
on 2014-01-28
05:34:05
 | Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
Hi and welcome to Plus/4 scene!
Yes the 264series' Kernal jump table and parameters are compatible with C64 O.S.
(I still remember, a lot of years ago, my enthusiasm when I discovered that .A $FFD2 does output a character to the screen!).
Anyway Miro, feel free to download Ultimate map from which you'll find all the info you need.
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Posted By
MIRKOSOFT
on 2014-01-28
13:16:17
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
I want to upload one program for 264 Series - text resizer...
It was written in Czechoslovakia, help was big from boys of "Pocitac Aktivne".
USING: SYS16000
===========
1x height, 1x width = CHR$(0)
4x height, 4x width = CHR$(1) / CONTROL+A
4x height, 8x width = CHR$(2) / CONTROL+B
8x height, 4x width = CHR$(3) / CONTROL+C
8x height, 8x width = CHR$(4) / CONTROL+D
I mean that can be useful, if not it's at least my first fee on 264 screne, but I'm new in this forum and really I must to learn how it here works.
Really I want to write my own wish: If I can select machine by my wish it is Commodore 364... yes, I know - very rare and near impossible to find.
Miro
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2014-01-28
13:59:21
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
the best way to get something uploaded here is to send it to one of the administrators....Luca or Csabo..
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2014-01-28
15:36:48
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
Miro: you have a 364 in YAPE.
Machine -> Configuration -> select Plus/4 from the dropdown at the top. Now add the speech ROM by typing SPEECH into Rom 3 Low. Tick the Toshiba box, and click OK.
Or you could simply choose V364 from the dropdown. ;)
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2014-02-01
08:48:36
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
Text Resizer is now online
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-02-01
08:58:18
 | Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
Published in C16/MSX 33.
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2014-02-01
19:04:06
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
This program would probably be more useful if it allocated memory correctly.
[Edit to add:] After SYS16000, issuing a NEW fixes the memory issue. I noted this on the program's entry in the database.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-02-02
09:42:31
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
Yes, it's written in the (italian, of course) instructions of the program:"in line 210, change STOP with NEW once everything's ok and working".
PRIINT CHR$(0) "TEXT" normal dimensions
PRIINT CHR$(1) "TEXT" 4*width/4*height
PRIINT CHR$(2) "TEXT" 4*width/8*height
PRIINT CHR$(3) "TEXT" 8*width/4*height
PRIINT CHR$(4) "TEXT" 8*width/8*height
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2014-02-02
12:28:08
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
Well, if I could read! hahaha
Thanks for confirming, Luca.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2014-02-02
16:14:03
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
Hmm, so what now, Miro didn't write that program? It's a type-in?
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2014-02-02
16:38:24
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
Csabo: if I'm reading his offer correctly (several posts above, where he mentioned how to use it), he didn't claim to write it.
I looked at the article Luca posted (C16/MSX 33, page 10) and did not notice an author's name. But I missed the instruction to substitute NEW for STOP, so obviously my Italian comprehension is somewhere in the negative numbers.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-02-02
16:40:38
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
JamesC: the swapping between STOP and NEW once the code shows to work is claimed in the very last sentence of page 10, but you have probably just spotted it
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-02-02
16:56:24
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
Now we only have to wait the author's words to understand where the real origin of this code.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2014-02-02
18:18:23
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
James, you're right that he didn't claim that he wrote it, I was careless. This is from a PM I got from him: "[...]I want to upload my little utility[...]It's not whole work of me,[...]" I obviously only registered that first part, and not the second. Well, sorry about that
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-03-10
15:04:16
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
So, in the very end, MIRKOSOFT: is Text Resizer a modified version of "Caratteri giganti" published as type-in in C16/MSX 33 November 1989?
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Posted By
RobertB
on 2014-03-12
00:41:55
| Re: V364 / 264 between +4 / 16 between 116 ROM checksum differencies - are there any?
On 2014-01-27, JamesC wrote:
> Tramiel's original US plan (European plan may have differed):
> US$49 -- Commodore 116
> US$199 -- Commodore 64 for homes
> US$249 -- Commodore 264 for business (customer would select one built-in program appropriate to their needs)
According to CBM engineer Bil Herd, the 264 was to sell at $79. It was not until after the Tramiels had left that CBM put in the 3-in-1 software and raised the price. See
http://c128.com/jack-tramiels-last-commodore-computer
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
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