Posted By
DeadTED
on 2013-02-21
23:02:41
|  1581 on plus 4
Hi guys, does anyone know if the 1581 drive works with plus 4?
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Posted By
MMS
on 2013-02-22
01:28:32
 | Re: 1581 on plus 4
i read in the past, that it works like on C64: huge space, but no speed advantage compared to 1541. It should work as it is an intelligent device.
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Posted By
siz
on 2013-02-22
01:58:52
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
As MMS said: it works just like on the C64. Slightly faster than on C64 but can't use the burst protocol of the C128 (however with JiffyDOS it can be very fast).
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Posted By
Luca
on 2013-02-22
02:44:22
 | Re: 1581 on plus 4
Of course yes, the 1581 perfectly works with a Plus/4, after all the Commodore 1581 in reason is included in the hardware page and the main emulators allow its emulation too. TCFS maestro used a 1581 for long time, and the sad story about the broken 3.5'' disk of Battery 3 nowadays is a most known one in the scene.
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Posted By
SVS
on 2013-02-22
04:04:41
 | Re: 1581 on plus 4
Not to forget that you can benefit by the directory tree system. I'm speaking about subdirectories.
As example I've put in my Bal-Sys software some dedicated commands to create new subdirs and to navigate inside the dir tree.
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Posted By
DeadTED
on 2013-02-22
07:21:52
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
Thanks guys, I will go ahead and aquire one then.
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Posted By
crock
on 2013-02-22
19:28:48
 | Re: 1581 on plus 4
If you want an 'as new' 1581, you could try Joe Palumbo: http://www.jppbm.com/1581kits.html
These kits are complete unused 1581's but without the drive mechanism. He sold these kits for about $35 into which you could install a drive mechanism from an A500 and get a fully functional 1581. You can also use most PC 3.5" drive mechanisms but it requires some minor 'hacking' of the drive cable. I've done both with success.
The story was Commodore Canada stripped the mechanisms from these unsold 1581's to use in Amiga's when they were selling so well and the kits were left abandoned. Last I heard Joe only had a few left though.
Rob
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Posted By
MMS
on 2013-02-24
12:09:22
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
hi, it is great news! Do you know, if it works only with the older drives, or ok with the later escom drives too?
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Posted By
Overdoc
on 2013-02-25
16:20:17
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
The 1581 works with all drives (Amiga & PC), but only Amiga-500 drives have the eject button in the correct size and in the right place.
Escom Amigas (A-1200) had PC drives installed, and are missing the 'ready' signal, which is required by many custom loaders on the Amiga.
However, the ready signal is not used/not connected at all in the 1581, so it doesn't make any difference there. Only the pinout is slightly different between PC and Amiga drives, which means you have to do a minor cable hack like Crock mentioned in case you use a PC drive/Escom Amiga drive.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-03-19
16:47:33
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
After a decade, there are some news on the matter.
-A (working) 1581 drive became crazy expensive. A used one costs 300-400€, while a pristine with box could go up to 450€
-JiffyDOS ROM became available for PAL 264 series too, so if you have an 1581 drive with Jiffy, you can have turbo loading speed, although we have no burst mode.
200 blocks in 8 seconds
(BTW burstmode kernal-hack via CIA1 or CIA2 is available for C64)
-Joe Palumbo link was dead, there was no answer to my repeated emails, but as I read on Lemnon64, the stock already vanished at that time.
BUT there are some really great news:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGFBk9Lae0c
1) 8 Bit Resurgance (@Frenetic ?) posted one year ago that he uploaded the modded/finetuned 1581 PCB to PCBWay Project, so you can order your one in any color with any surface finish.
I already saw some ads on the ebay, asking 160-180€ for your replica PCB with components (even sometimes you need to solder them too).
WHY so expensive?
I made my calculation on PCB Way, and 10 panels FULLY populated and assembled with the required components (!), together WITH shipping costs only 85USD. That's a bargain! I added here the Prinsceen, mabe you will find a mistake...
You can easily bring up the price with better surface finish, thicker or stronger panel, silk printing and such, but the FR-4, 1.6mm thick, HASL surface finish is more than enough here. We do not have small pitch, BGA or other sensitive compontents, and uneven surface means NO threat to you, as PCBWay will do the assembly.
Certainly you may choose ENIG for a great soldering experience (or Immersion Tin for the worse  ) for a higher price, or choose aluminium or copper base, but not necessary here. In the last 1.5 years I worked in automotive PCB manufaturing, so believe me, it will be enough for this task.
2) Even better news: 8 Bit Resurgance designed a small panel that makes ALL PC 3.5" drives compatible with 1581! I think it is the second best news.
You may order not only the Amiga, 1581 compatible floppy drive, but a good quality black or dark grey one too
3) You can also power your new drive (thanks to 8 Bit Resurgance again) with a simple DC adapter, anything from 6.5V to 19V, as a voltage regulator added and an alternative option. Nice!
1541/II owners are lucky, as their external power brick is compatible with 1581. (if they are not aware)
(Though I think if the internals use only 5V DC, and the power consumption is not that high, why not use the stable USB chargers via a robust USB Mini connector?
It is frequently seen on portable HDDs or seen on the SD1541/II with micro USB connector. Maybe next time...
4) Housing: you may buy directly the 3D printed 1581 modified housing here:
https://corei64.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=65&product_id=393
I could order a full black version with shipping for $136.
(You can get your in orange/green/pink color too )
At least the designer is supported when you order it from here.
BLACK 1581s FOR THE 264 COMMUNITY! WE DESERVE IT! :-D
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-03-19
18:11:35
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
Never noticed this thread before! I have also made my own 1581 replacement PCB last year while I was quarantining with COVID. It's almost a 1:1 copy of the original one, I haven't tested it much but it seems to work fine. I have never released it though, exactly because I didn't want people to start selling it at ridiculous prices.
I also have a PC-drive adapter board, which follows the design by androSID and toms01 on Forum64.de. This one also seems to work fine.
The 1581 does not need +12V, it's only brought to the drive, and as you mention, PC drives generally work on +5V only. There is a nice power board here anyway, which makes the whole thing able to be powered from USB-C.
There are some free 1581 housing models around which seem to be good (I don't have an exact link at the moment though). These can be printed with a 3D printer or ordered from something like PCBWay much cheaper, I think. I will need to check.
Anyway, if you want a board + PC drive adapter, just ask, you will pay shipping only .
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-03-19
18:44:27
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
@SukkoPera: I would be really surprised if you would not have your own design ( really cool )
Thank you for the additional information, USB-C is the future, as Apple learned it in the hard way too.
It makes powering up the 1541/II and 1581 a child's play! We will not look back to the heavy bricks anymore...
(BTW in our computer mainly (only?) the datasette needs the 12V, otherwise 5V would be enough)
I just noticed that there is a much cheaper PIY downloadable housing files on the SAME homepage, even the dual 1581D (rumoured 1582) in a nice A3000 like housing. Sorry that I just linked the expensive version.
Worth to mention, that this PCB uses a different sized switch than the original one; this 3D model contains the required modifications
https://corei64.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=402&search=1581
Thank you for your kind offer!
I have in my mind a full black 1581, black floppy drive, even black PCB...
(certainly the IEC serial cable should be black too )
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-03-20
06:01:13
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
Here's the thing I built:
I think I also found the "minimal" side supports 3D models on Forum64.
Unfortunately, as you can see, my PCBs are blue .
Here's the enclosure model mentioned before. Not my work and no guarantees, but it seems good!
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2023-03-20
08:12:40
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
Do I even dare ask?... @SukkoPera When did you build this? Does it work with an actual Plus/4?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2023-03-20
08:34:45
 | Re: 1581 on plus 4
Maybe it would fit inside the Amiga 1010 external disk drive case.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-03-20
08:59:40
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
I did it about an year ago, it has been sitting on my shelf ever since. I have never tested it with a +4/C16, only with a C64 and not even that much, but it appeared to work well. I don't see why it shouldn't work on a +4, but I might do some quick tests tonight since you ask . Any particular test to make?
I'm still undecided whether I want to release this publicly, but sure I have the design files and can make any required change in circuit or in shape. Anyway I'd be happy to provide free PCBs to anyone who would be willing to build one and make some thorough testing.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2023-03-20
10:50:57
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
I was getting worried that you put this together in less than a day in response to MSS' post 
Uncertain Future would be a good test. We didn't upload a .d81, but you could simply create one using DirMaster (or similar software) by copying all the files from the .d64. This test disk is probably also a good candidate.
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Posted By
siz
on 2023-03-20
11:05:00
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
In addition for all the 1581 builders: in 2023 I wouldn't waste my time with real floppy disks (unless You want to hear the growling of the mechanics and curse the unreliable magnetic media).
You can use a Gotek with FlashFloppy firmware (it's not listed on the supported Host Platforms page but there is a closed issue that adds .d81 support)
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-03-20
11:38:50
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
@Csabo: LOL! But it didn't take much, to be honest: about one day for the schematics and one day for the routing. Then, since I didn't have a real 1581 to look at, I asked good old Jani (who I knew had one) to check a couple of traces. Finally, over one more day I did the final touches. That's all, it's not a big or difficult board and there's nothing it it justifying the absurd prices you see around  . Manual assembly can be done in a couple of hours.
I will test with those 2 demos and will let you know.
@siz: What about an OpenFlops? 
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Posted By
siz
on 2023-03-20
12:53:53
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
@SukkoPera: yes, that sounds better
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-03-20
18:08:34
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
I have done some tests:
- testdisk.d81 works perfectly: the drive gets detected as 1581 and the loader code is uploaded correctly.
- I haven't been able to create a working D81 of Uncertain Future. I am a Linux user so I cannot user DirMaster. I have tried VICE's c1541 and the supposedly better cc1541 but both create images that also fail on VICE (yapesdl doesn't seem to support D81's): it detects a CPU jam shortly after "UNCERTAIN FUTURE FOR AROK 2019" gets printed. The real machine also hangs there. @Csabo, could you please provide a working D81?
- I have also found another demo claiming support for the 1581, namely Overcast, which behaves exactly the same.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2023-03-20
18:11:15
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
Hah, so I created a .D81, but it hangs in YAPE the same way as you're describing. I'll have to ask siz to debug this... Stay tuned!
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-03-20
18:57:08
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
@siz: frankly speaking, I have an SD2IEC integrated into an 1541/II, also own one SD1541/II.
I really liked them due to the massive amount of the data they can store.
If you have JiffyDOS AND big storage (800KB is really huge compared to the 664 blocks) I do not mind if I need to keep some floppies (certainly I do not speak about 2GB content, like 2000 discs )
On the other hand, creating a game for such a beast it a different level of game creation process.
-You should not look for disc size, if you want to add one or two extra images to your game.
-If you want to load a picture, it will load within seconds (1581 with Jiffy is even 50% faster than an 1541 with Jiffy)
-You can also forget swapping discs. If you still keep D64 format even witha Gotek, you still need to swap images
-So what we really need is the ACCEPTANCE of D81 as a format for our platform.
-as you know, I really liked my SFD1001 till it worked (but there was no way to make it faster than an 1541 on out platform), so I was really fond of the 1MB disc size, even without subdirectories, haha
a looong, looong directory
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Posted By
siz
on 2023-03-21
02:07:29
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
Sorry guys. It seems that the drive download code for Uncertain Future is bugged. I've tested it on a lot of drives during the development but at some stage I switched to test on serial 1541 only because the demo had to sync to the slowest possible load speeds.
I frequently run it on SD2IEC and sometimes on 1541(likes). But 1581 was not on the list for a long time. I'll upload a fixed version (for example I was aware that for example 1551 as #9 won't work). But it will take some time as I have to recreate that build environment.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-03-21
03:21:32
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
Oh ok, no problem, take your time . Could it be the same bug that affects Overcast?
@Luca: Thanks, I have tested Alpharay, Pets Rescue and Lykia, all of them work fine. I have a question though: since these D81 versions were made for the SD2IEC, which cannot save, will it possible to save when using them on a real drive? I am talking about Lykia mainly.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2023-03-21
03:39:01
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
@SukkoPera: those .D81 versions of the games were mostly made in order to make'em run on SD2IEC device, and all the texts included in those releases refer to that specific case, reminding about the impossibility to save. I'm managing to release something very soon, which does the same: using .D81 format on a SD2IEC card is stil far far better than fighting against badly handleable .SEQ files and horrible partitions' handling of the virtual CMD drives.
What we really miss, is the natural usage of those .D81s with the real 1581: no notes have been dropped about that – apparently obvious – case. Hence, why not summon @Mad himself as the author of those games?
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Posted By
siz
on 2023-03-21
07:56:55
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
@SukkoPera: the .D81 images of Mad's games use my loader which supports a lot of drives (at least the bug free versions ) but does not support save. The .D64 images use BitFire which was is originally a trackloader for demos but has been extended with limited save capability for Mad.
I could do the same for my loader (except for SD2IEC where I have to use one of the existing protocols in its firmware and the one I use does not support save).
In short: those .D81 images were never intended to use on real 1581.
edit: ... and yes, probably Overcast is affected by the same bug too
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-03-21
09:51:41
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
Ok, I'm starting to understand something . It would be great if you could add save capability to your loader, as having the possibility to cheaply build a 1581 clone with a Gotek would be the optimal solution for big games like Lykia, which currently must either be played from real 5.25" disks with a bulky and expensive 1541/51/71 or from an SD2IEC which is much less cumbersome and much more reliable but that unfortunately prevents saving. Not to mention that the bigger 3.5" disks could also contain more files, reducing the number of disks (yes, I'm aware the number of total files could be a problem for that).
(And yes, I'm willingly ignoring NeoRAM and emulators ;) )
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Posted By
siz
on 2023-03-21
09:55:11
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
I think the pi1541 is the ideal modern drive emulator for our platform: it can emulate both 1541 and 1581 at the hardware level. Switching between them is done by attaching a disk image. It also has some limited SD2IEC-like (native-directory) operation.
The other one is an SD2IEC with BSz's FlexSD firmware which allows you running software like BA - The Stream and WavePlay-SD. But this one has almost the same compatibility limitations as the "normal" SD2IEC firmware it's forked from.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-03-21
10:41:21
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
As I have said multiple times (althogh not yet on this forum, I think): there's no way I'm stickin' a stinkin' Raspberry Pi into any of my old machines!
I have nothing against it, I actually like it and in fact I have a couple of them I use routinely for "modern" things, but I absolutely can't stand the idea of using a machine that is 1000x as powerful as the one I'm putting it in to do "stupid homework".
(This is just my personal opinion, YMMV of course!)
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Posted By
siz
on 2023-03-22
04:27:43
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
Last night I recreated the build environment for Overcast and rebuilt it using the latest version of my loader. You can download D64/D71/D81 images in a single zip from the demo's page. Tonight Uncertain Future will follow.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-03-22
15:29:41
| Re: 1581 on plus 4
Great news! I'll be happy to test tonight!
EDIT: Works perfectly! :)
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