| Posted By
SVS
on 2010-10-10
08:09:10
 |  Plus/4 2.0
I want to introduce into discussion an idea I have since some months. It could be said that it is not a technical idea but indeed a philosophic one. Judge yourselves and post your opinion.
20 years and more are passed since the gold era, when each of us had a real Plus/4 machine, the tape and (perhaps) a 1541. Over the years I think each of us did buy a PC. In the meanwhile the world community born and the links between members became stronger. This made it possible to think and actualize emulators for Plus/4.
During time people substituted its PCs with new ones, more powerful so that they (finally) could run emulators at 100% or more than real Plus4 speed. Nowadays situation is that even if many of us still have (and care) real Plus/4 machines, everybody works, plays, codes using emulators and PC-tools (Plus4IDE, etc.).
Then I think it is the time to introduce the new concept that "the code could not be fully compatible with original machine", because instead uses new features of the emulators they selves.
3 examples to convince you:
- Load patch flag (as discussed months ago and actualized on Yape);
- Emulator speed flag: could let the code to "know" what is current speed (100%, 200%, etc.) and then to maintain the realtime preservation of, say, a watch or other time-based process.
- Emulator accuracy (for ex. in Yape: Low/Medium/High) in order to let code "know" that it cannot use printer feature under some circumstances (Low in Yape makes system unstable).
At end, if we assign for the above data some unused/stationary memory addresses of real Plus4, the code could even rest full compatible with real iron.
Waiting for your appreciated opinions 
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Posted By
RoePipi
on 2010-10-12
12:38:50
 | Re: Plus/4 2.0
LOL, I actually used an "emulator speed" flag in my 2009 game Foxish, to smoothen gameplay and appearance
However, it's a BASIC one...
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Posted By
MMS
on 2010-10-15
17:26:20
 | Re: Plus/4 2.0
I need a new feature: supermulti graphix mode.
Double color and luminance map, and within every character you may have 4 new independent colors.
(yesss,even background, and no color3)
I need that to able to killa C64 multi pictures. MUHAHAHA
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Posted By
TLC
on 2010-10-16
07:56:28
| Re: Plus/4 2.0
After many years, I tend to agree with philosophy saying things are rather identified by limitations... together with their abilities...
If you invest some freetime into a "trip" at YouTube, to watch several demos and games for different platforms, you'll notice that each and all does have its very special and unique flavour . This unique flavor is built up by several factors -- but we can probably assume that the primary factor is the bounds implied by the hardware design of the machine... Plus/4 stuffs also have their very distinctive appear and feel -- which is ultimately a result of the abilities and limitations of the stock hardware's design. (...We could mention that the general type of people, generally attracted to the platform should be factor, too -- but IMHO that won't be independent from the hw design's abilities and limitations either).
...That's exactly why I'm not that fond of hardware enhancements (things that fundamentally change the stock machine's characteristics) anymore. Maybe the exceptions would be things generally easing everyday life (communication interfaces, memory expansions, mass storage devices etc. ) but not required by the end-result, especially demos and games. ...Today If I prefer a Plus/4, but adore something which is something fundamentally a C64, well,... there's nothing to prevent me to go and get a C64. If I need something which is fundamentally an Amiga, I go and get an Amiga. ...I prefer the Plus/4's "flavour", and stuff written for something based on, but fundamentally differing from a Plus/4 certainly won't end up carrying a Plus/4 stuffs distinctive look and feel... and for me that's where the story ends.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2010-10-16
16:30:18
| Re: Plus/4 2.0
TLC: I agree and disagree with you at the same time.
I like the plus/4 with all it's limitations. It is not a C64, and never meant to be. It has it's benefits and drawbacks compared to other machines, and this is the part you explained. Eg. SID was a long term dream of plus/4 forum, but definitely it is an essential part of C64, so by this plus/4 became a partially a C64... Sprites were too expensive for TED, so I take this limitation as a parts of HW design.
On the other hand there are issues which were potential possibilities of the platform, but just not happened or the designers were not creative enough (with all respect to the design team).
Fundamentally it would be the same machine. (no major hardware change, just some adjustments).
Like:
- the 8 same shades of black color, why is it? plus/4 could have been the potential to have most greys in 8 bit area, perfect for digitalization. (16 grey shades, black could be 8 different dark greys, and white could have 8 lighter greys)
- Designers provided more colors, but added an extra limitation (second fixed color in multicolor gfx mode). so it is partially more, and at the same time little less, than a C64. Not a clear step forward. The function "supermulti" could be just a little more programming at concept phase, but would be a perfect match for the bigger palette, and could make sprite emulation a dream.
- Or the TED sound: no ADSR needed (it would be almost a SID), but some more raw waveforms to make the sound little more diversified. (if you checked Hexaeder, you will know what I mean). It would just needed few more bytes in memory and few more bits in TED register.
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Posted By
NinjaDRM
on 2010-10-17
02:43:09
| Re: Plus/4 2.0
I am full on TLC's side. The potential issues MMS describes are present on any other platform, too. They are also part of what makes the systems unique. A slighty improved MC-mode? Why not TrueColor? Both won't make "the thing" feel the same anymore, IMO. And frankly, there is nothing impressive when productions only run on a specially pimped emulator.
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Posted By
Boray
on 2010-10-17
06:41:51
| Re: Plus/4 2.0
Take a look here:
http://user.tninet.se/~pug510w/datormuseum/howmany700.html
It's a game for Vic-20 running at 700% speed. If you have PRG Starter installed, it starts the game at 700% speed automatically.
http://user.tninet.se/~jad615g/prgstarter/
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Posted By
SVS
on 2010-10-17
08:24:45
| Re: Plus/4 2.0
Friends,
maybe somebody went off-topic by writing here his (our) secret dreams over Plus4.
What I meant by starting this discussion, was: does is worth to have some links between program code and emulator?
This *would not* modify the standard machine, nor its features!
If you, like me, use emulator, I suppose you switch it to faster mode when you have to perform long unattended operations, and even you switch it to 200% speed when use quite slow programs.
If an unused Plus4 memory address is set by emulator with its current speed, the program could test it and selfset according to the value it finds. If program runs in a real Plus4 it will find standard (unmodified) value and thus does nothing.
It is easy to suppose the benefits of this: for example, as said, in the time preservation (a watch will keep correct time with any emulator speed).
In conclusion: I don't want to ask a modification of our dear Plus4 HW and SW. Simply since we already use emulators, we can gain more benefits.
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Posted By
MikeZ
on 2010-10-17
10:55:29
 | Re: Plus/4 2.0
SVS: I think I know where you are going with this regarding emulation speed and making this info available to the programmer running his work on YAPE.
I suggest this: Include in one of the YAPE config dialog boxes a user selected location in free RAM where certain YAPE parameters can be stored for user needs.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2010-10-17
14:49:03
| Re: Plus/4 2.0
Ninja: why not trucolor? just because we do not have enough memory. otherwise it is OK for me )
Otherwise, you may ask to delete my offtopic comments. Peace!
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Posted By
SVS
on 2010-10-18
04:31:57
| Re: Plus/4 2.0
MikeZ: I suggest this: Include in one of the YAPE config dialog boxes a user selected location in free RAM where certain YAPE parameters can be stored for user needs.
A bit less flexible IMO. The addresses must be defined as a "new standard" (like made with load patch flag) so that all new written programs work with no need of setting by user.
Gaia?
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2010-10-18
06:40:15
| Re: Plus/4 2.0
I'm very ambivalent about this topic. I never liked SID-cards or 256KB-expansions or other hardware enhancements for the plus/4. Even requiring 64Kb in your software locks out a lot of the (already not very numerous) 264-users .
On the other hand i rarely fire up the real iron and do most of my stuff in the emulator. Whereas i think its pretty lame to make demos that require 4 times the speed of the real machine i still think it might be useful for utility-applications. A "this is yape"-flag could help to - say - create a better handling of keystrokes in full speed mode.
p.s.: One more thing about my dislike of HW-mods...
Its frustrating on other platforms aswell: Where do you get an 68060-AGA-Amiga with lots of ram today? Ok, you need some dough and some time with ebay...
Sounds paradox but you'll enter the deepest abyss when you try to run some PC-Demos. Its a science of its own kind to run old DOS demos - even today my hair stands on end just like back then when i read or hear "dos extender", "soundblaster" or "gravis ultrasound". It didn't got any better ever since: "Got DX10? Great, but hm, wait. Did i hear ATI? Sorry, wrong company, go away..."
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Posted By
MikeZ
on 2010-10-18
11:03:33
| Re: Plus/4 2.0
SVS: As far as I know, you have so far ID'd only one such parameter:YAPE speed.
How many others can you think of?
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Posted By
SVS
on 2010-10-19
15:14:13
| Re: Plus/4 2.0
Other IDs could be:
- Emulator accuracy
- Patch load
- Memory expansion
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2010-10-19
16:26:58
| Re: Plus/4 2.0
Chime, chime, here I come chiming in with my 2 cents Canadian! *tumbleweed*
I agree with what TLC and Degauss said. Pure plussy, that's the fun stuff. (Tom of LOD used to say "What's the point in hooking the plussy up to a power plant?") Although TLC didn't say anything specific against a SID card, notice how both of them can produce excellent TED tunes 
On the other hand, the SID card is fun and there's obvious interest in it. It makes our guys happy. So would these emulator flags SVS is talking about. It would make SVS happy. I see no big harm in implementing them - if you don't want to use it, that's fine.
Therefore, Gaia must add them, so I decree What? You say I'm not the king of everything? Fine. Then I just respectfully join SVS and ask for them nicely.
Though checking for memory expansion (and available memory in general) should be detected the in traditional way. My Savage Island hack has an example of that, though it can probably be found elsewhere on the forum too.
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