| Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-15
13:47:52
|  Beta version of new emulator is now available
I have a beta release now at SourceForge, including a Win32 installer and a source package:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ep128emu/
Changes since the last alpha snapshot include the addition of 1541 emulation, a Windows installer, even more accurate TED emulation, and the keyboard layout has been made more consistent with other emulators. The code is available under the GPL license, which means that you can use any part of it, but only as long as your project is also open source and has a GPL license and the copyright notices are preserved.
If you are interested, you can join the development or subscribe to the new mailing lists at http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=128766
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Posted By
MagerValp
on 2007-03-15
16:12:07
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Very nice. Did you say that a mac or unix port would be possible as well?
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-15
17:24:07
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
It already runs on Linux: I am developing on that platform, using a 64 bit system. Compiling and running on 32 bit Linux has been tested by TLC. Other unix-like operating systems, including MacOS X, may work, but I have no access to those platforms; theoretically, the code should compile - with some modifications to the SConstruct file for correct compiler and linker flags etc. - and run if the necessary tools and dependencies are available, and the libraries used by the emulator (particularly FLTK and PortAudio) work reliably. However, in practice, only Linux and Windows have been tested so far, so reports on other operating systems, and patches are welcome.
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Posted By
MagerValp
on 2007-03-16
03:05:23
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Ah, cool. I'll see if it builds on OSX.
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Posted By
MagerValp
on 2007-03-16
04:38:29
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
It doesn't compile on OSX:
http://spike.ling.gu.se/~pelle/build.log
http://spike.ling.gu.se/~pelle/build2.log
There are dependencies on JACK and ALSA that are not checked by the scons script. JackOSX is available, but as far as I know ALSA is not.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-16
05:24:39
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
The JACK and ALSA libraries are actually only dependencies of PortAudio on Linux. So, you can safely remove them from SConstruct (the libraries are defined at line 177). The 'rt' library might not be needed, either.
Other than that, you do not seem to have the dotconf library: without that, the emulator can run, but will not be able to load ASCII format configuration files. Also, FLTK seems to be older than 1.1.7; I am not sure if that causes any problems, though.
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2007-03-17
22:51:51
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Nice one. Very good emulation!
My two cents:
- what gui-toolkit are you using? sorry, looks horrible.
- i didn't understand the different display-qualities. the highest one looks like PAL-emulation. can you explain?
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Posted By
TLC
on 2007-03-18
06:29:30
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
I made some tests today morning with the Windows port. Here are some things that I found.
-- Both ports (Linux/Windows) use about the same computing power. On this notebook (Compaq Evo N620C, Mobile P4 1.5GHz, Radeon Mobility 7500) it's slightly above 50% and sometimes goes up to 80-90% when the emulator is active. It never crashed or became jerky because of lack of more computing power, however.
-- It didn't work with openGL, it crashed (see http://coroners.no-ip.hu/ep128emu2/ep128emu2t1opengl.jpg ). I don't know if I should install something I'm not aware of the moment to have proper openGL support in XP. As far as I know, I have the latest video drivers (2005.06.07, 6.14.10.6542, installed with sp30767.exe from Compaq's support site). I may be wrong in that subject, but I couldn't find a more recent driver (Mobility drivers are supplied by the manufacturers, not ATI, and Compaq had this one).
-- The screen refresh is notably worse than in Linux (but AFAIK you're aware of this). Note that I could only test the software video output, but even the smaller screen size appeared jerky, so I'd presume there's more about this than just the video driver.
-- I used the keymap for the Hungarian layout. Some keys are not exactly at the same places as in Linux (see http://coroners.no-ip.hu/ep128emu2/ep128emu2t2keys.jpg, the keys that appear to be at wrong places are green).
-- Other than that, everything worked (I was especially surprised of the installer, which did everything just on the first try). Even the floppy emulation works more or less well; say, I encountered floppy speeders that worked, while some others didn't.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-18
06:48:50
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
I used FLTK (http://www.fltk.org/) for the GUI. It is small, simple, and portable. However, I understand that Windows users prefer the native widgets; so, creating a separate GUI frontend and video (maybe audio as well) driver using the Win32 API natively could be a project worth considering at a later time. I am not as familiar with Window programming, though, but if someone else decides to write it, it would be a welcome contribution. Alternatively, the GUI could eventually be replaced with a more advanced cross-platform toolkit (e.g. Qt).
The quality parameter controls the texture resolution (that is, the effective display resolution before being scaled according to the size of the emulator window), and enables/disables some effects. It is only relevant when the OpenGL driver is being used.
Here is what the various values mean when double buffering is disabled:
0: 768x288 resolution, no texture filtering, no effects; the display is drawn using texture tiles with a size of 768x8, and only those parts are updated that have changed since the last frame (reducing CPU usage when most of the screen does not change)
1: 384x288 resolution, linear texture filtering, "motion blur" effect (the previous pixel data in the frame buffer is multiplied by the "effect 3" parameter, the pixels of new frame are multiplied by "effect 2", and the sum of these is written to the frame buffer) - this is also useful for reducing the flickering in demos that increase the number of colors by alternating between two sets of colors; the whole display is always redrawn
2: same as above, but with 768x288 texture resolution
3: same as above, but with 768x576 texture resolution; the texture is scaled to double height, and "gaps" between lines are filled with the sum of the previous and next line multiplied by "effect 1"; other than the TV-like scanline effect (it is not a PAL emulation, though), this can be useful for interlaced display with correctly set parameters
Double buffered mode is similar, but there is no "motion blur" effect, and the whole display is always redrawn, even if the quality is zero. Additionally, this should cause the screen updates to be synchronized with the vertical refresh of the monitor.
The current CVS sources have some changes in the "quality 3" mode: first, the quality 2 mode is used when the effect 1 is set to the maximum of 0.5 (this is really just an optimization, because with that setting the scanline effect is no longer visible, and using a 768x576 texture is just a waste of CPU time); the second, more interesting change is that in double buffered mode with a quality setting of 3, the video driver will resample (using linear interpolation) the video output of the emulated machine to the refresh rate of the monitor - this allows very smooth display updates even if the ratio of the frame rates is not an integer, but the cost is high system requirements (if the monitor refresh rate is 70 Hz, 140 frames per second are drawn because of the interpolation), and some delay in the video output, because the frames to be displayed are buffered.
Note again that none of the above are available when using the software driver, it ignores all the quality, double buffering, and effect parameters.
While there is no full PAL TV emulation, the latest sources do emulate some color artifacts that occur when the least significant bit of the video line is not in sync with the display.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-18
07:21:19
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Unfortunately, the OpenGL crash screenshot is not very helpful (the relevant information is the details that can be shown by clicking, or the full crash log). It may be worth finding out if the crash can be avoided with some combinations of settings (while using the software driver, try setting the effect 2 to 1.0, effect 3 to 0.0, and quit and then restart with the OpenGL driver; try restarting with double buffering turned on/off as well).
The "jerky video" issue on Windows is indeed a known and very annoying one. I already made one step toward solving it by writing the video resampler mode, but it is only useful on fast computers (and with OpenGL, of course). Another step would be to not wait directly on the audio output on Windows (because it has high latency and jitter on that platform), but rather add a timer and adjust the speed smoothly so that the audio buffer is about 50% full on average.
I will have a look at the keyboard layout problem, and also attempt to debug some 1541 loaders before the final release.
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Posted By
MagerValp
on 2007-03-19
04:52:58
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
After removing jack, alsa, and rt, I get:
http://spike.ling.gu.se/~pelle/build3.log
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-19
08:17:15
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
The first three undefined symbols mean that FLTK was not built with the --enable-threads configure option. The other four symbols are less obvious; try using different versions of FLTK (1.1.6, 1.1.7, or 1.1.x-r5746), if none works, perhaps the error should be reported on the FLTK forums at http://www.fltk.org/, maybe the FLTK developers can help.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-25
08:57:53
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Here is a new Windows installer: http://www.sharemation.com/IstvanV/plus4-2.0-beta.exe
This fixes some problems found in the previous release, and also adds a new video mode
that resamples the video output to the refresh rate of the monitor, allowing for much smoother
display updates at the expense of higher CPU usage and some latency. I do not have enough
information about the OpenGL crash, but I added a check for the case when the glBlendColor()
function is not available (i.e. wglGetProcAddress() returns NULL), in case that was the source
of the problem. Some 1541 fastloaders that were previously broken now work, but this area still
needs improvements.
Note that SID emulation has been removed for now, since the sources are no longer available,
and reSID has a GPL license. I will attempt to write SID emulation later from scratch, though.
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Posted By
TLC
on 2007-03-25
10:40:00
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
István, by this comment ("...since the sources are no longer available") did you mean that the emulator is (from now and on) a closed source project?
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-25
11:20:46
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Well, so far no one seemed to show any interest in contributing to the project, or using parts of the code in other open source emulators. On the other hand, I am worried that some of my work may be copied by developers of closed source software. It is disappointing that my idea of an open source project for a high quality, portable emulator has apparently failed. Anyway, for now, I will only release binaries for Windows and Linux. Also, I removed the multi-machine functionality, not only because the Z80 code was GPL and not written by me, but it seems that it confused people, and multi-machine emulators are generally assumed to be of lower quality.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2007-03-25
11:59:08
 | Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Hi István,
don't be discouraged by little feedback and no contributions. Not many are able to code at that level but still we like to see your efforts evolve. And "plus/4 world" is not everything. I don't know if you have mentioned your emulator on other emulation and retro computing sites but I'm sure there are more ppl interested in this than those who visit "plus/4 world".
I really would like to see that SID emulation stays... Sure, if you can write it from scratch that's ok. But isn't that a bit like re-inventing the wheel? You've already proven that your emulator works well using reSID and if it would stay open source you could concentrate on plus/4 emulation.
Personally, I don't care much about the Z80 part because I never had a Z80 based machine. But even if "multi-machine emulators are generally assumed to be of lower quality"... who cares? If you have fun - and that's what this is all about - to include other machines, than do so. I wouldn't judge an emulator by the machines it can emulate but if it serves my purposes. A good product will always show through.
I hope you keep on working (even if closed source, others do that, too) on your emulator!
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Posted By
siz
on 2007-03-26
04:09:52
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Istvan!
Think about closing the sources once again, please. I've subscribed to your development mailing lists. Unfortunately i don't have the time to participate in the real development now but I plan it in the near future.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-26
12:54:16
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
I may consider releasing the source again later. If that happens, I would possibly also create a new SourceForge project.
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Posted By
TLC
on 2007-03-26
13:33:18
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
I slept over it before replying, so, here it goes...
I'm sorry to see that you seem to have given up _that_ early. ...This project has been special to me, in the sense of having all potential to grow up becoming something universal. ...But I remember having written all this to you right at the beginning... so it's not new. Open source, portability, building upon well defined foundations (instead of building upon something unuseable, like I guess VICE is suffering from) and someone with good will and sense at the wheel are all important factors. This project seemed to have all those factors, whilst all others missed and are still missing on at least one of those each.
As for your points about no interest or no contribution (two different issues IMHO) and your code being copied, well... Hmmm. First, it's been really not long since your project came up. Judging from 3 months of feedback (especially if the first release that you yourself considered a beta has not been out for more than one week or so) is a little bit irreal... As you can see, most people here are Windows oriented, and aren't especially interested in a multiplatform emulator, unless it's really cool and polished just by itself (without considering any other properties)... which, with all due respect (as it's a really short time period) "ep128emu2" is still far from. In other words, 95% of people here really don't care if someone's going to build an emulator whose functionality they already have in Yape. On the other hand, you, yourself could have helped getting more attention by mentioning the project on more forums, and also, finding a nice name for the project at the first place, and by separating the Enterprise and Commodore parts (literally) from each other (which imho both spoiled some potential users and created some confusion). The project still doesn't have a catchy name (like, say, VICE, Mess and others all do)... if I were you, I'd go for that before anything else. What's still left is of the social kind... simple incompatibility in style, personal ignorance, personal, unconscious envy and things like that... things that you should probably simply ignore, unless you're also affected... in which case I probably won't make a judgement at all. As to contributing to the project... to be effectively able to contribute, one would probably need a good knowledge in C++, the GNU toolchain, the TED, and some time spent with Linux won't hurt also... now take the intersection of the groups from people you've met here, and make a guess of the number of potential contributors... getting upset of no contributors, having talked about the project at just one forum and things above is really pointless as I guess.
Considering the possibility of copying your code... well, I hoped that you're aware of this, and you just don't care. Opensource projects all have the potential of becoming a source, maybe in more than just one respect... I have expected you to have created the project with this in mind. Attila has for example learnt tricks and programming solutions from a lot of opensource emulators before and while creating Yape, and while I certainly feel asymmetry between the facts that while he could learn, he doesn't pass this possibility on to others, this won't change the pure fact and glory I feel towards those opensource projects that make and have been making this possible for long... unasked and whith no personal preference ever. Speaking of Yape and Attila in particular -- as both of you and me know that they were aimed at by your comment -- I know that there's some kind of rivalry between you two, and both of you observe each others steps as closely as you just can... from that on, I won't make a judgement, you both get what you wanted, and having said those things, I admit that with those conditions in mind, it's really impossible to work on an opensource project (even if I'm sorry about that). Mind you, speaking as someone who could watch both of your projects growing, your appearance did indeed speed things up around the development of Yape (Attila seems to be one of those lucky ones who can take extra energy from stress), but just as you did, he discovered things himself. ...You may ask yourself whether you're proud of what you're doing... and if you are, consider why someone else shouldn't be just as proud of his deeds and capabilities as you are.
All in all... I guess, moving to closed source is a big step back, certainly what makes your project no different to others available, in potential of growth and useability. You may make this decision, which is no other than itself -- a decision, with its pros and cons. For one, I'm not more interested in one particular closed source emulator than any others available, and would certainly consider using a binary-only Plus/4 emulator under Linux only as a last resort. Hope you'll reconsider this decision -- with which, you're effectively losing --... and, well, keep up the good work... 
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-26
16:21:08
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
You are probably right that there is not much point in releasing another emulator, when there is already one that is basically perfect, and can run anything, and is suitable for almost all users. And even if I come up with something new, and release the source, the code is stolen very quickly anyway. So, I should just forget about this; what I have is already good enough for my own uses.
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2007-03-26
19:09:06
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Hi Istvan!
One can clearly see your frustration about how your emu-project turned out - and i'm very sorry for that. While i was reading this thread i had to think several times: "What did he target? What did he want? And what did he expect?"
With all due respect i think you have been searching for a new and cool project to code on and to gather a community, a team around this new OSS-project. I might be wrong and forgive me if i am, but i think the subject of this project itself has not been of very high interest for you.
I don't know you very much, but since you more or less silently barricaded you emu-project i really like to ask you what kind of project you are looking for and what you are expecting. How should it look like? (And this is no rhetorical question: the preferences of you and most of the other +4-world-people differ quite much, i'd like to know what kind of project gives you the kicks)
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Posted By
TLC
on 2007-03-27
04:18:45
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
You may as well ask yourself if creating VICE, Frodo, reSID etc. have all been valuable and worth the effort... Until you realise why those people all bothered creating opensource projects (you know, all like "the code is stolen very quickly anyway"... pfff... ), you probably better forget opensource software development at all.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-27
07:29:32
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
As I said, I may consider releasing again at a later point in time, should that turn out to be worth doing. I am not sure, though, if the multi-machine architecture should be kept, or the emulator should be reduced to just a single machine.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2007-03-27
10:24:17
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Hey István,
don't worry so much about stolen code... you already earned a lot of respect for creating an emulator that works that good in such a short time. Nobody will take that away.
Yes, YAPE has a very strong user base but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be alternatives and that alternatives won't have a chance.
If you stay open source then that alone would make your project special and draw more attention then other projects do.
MagerValp definitely showed interest in compiling it on OS X. Isn't that a great opportunity for a joint effort?
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-27
17:19:49
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Assuming that I resume open source development, I would like to hear some opinions on whether emulating more than one type of machine should be still possible, or the project should focus on the Plus/4 only, and what should the name be instead of ep128emu if the name is changed (and in the single machine case, it should obviously be changed - I used "plus4" for an earlier emulator, or how about "plus4emu", or something else ?). These questions are relevant because it may be necessary then to reorganize the code somewhat, or create a new SourceForge project.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-28
18:43:08
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Well, I have registered a new SourceForge project with the unix name "plus4emu". I would still like to hear ideas, if there are any, for the descriptive name.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2007-03-28
18:50:28
 | Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
New emul's name: +4Real
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2007-03-28
19:22:15
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
During the last couple of days, I gave this some thought, too.
First of all, I think names that include "emu" are a nit unimaginative boring And I have to admit that even if I like YAPE, I don't like the name that much.
Greek mythology is always good for names but sometimes there's not much connection between the godess/god and that what the program does.
Personally, I like plays on words... if they are good And for a plus/4 emulator I would definitely play with the "4". Though, I'd go for the spelled out FOUR because the 4 has been overused in many product names.
My first choice was "FOURCE", pronounced just like "force". But after some quick research I saw that Microsoft has action figures called "SOURCE FOURCE" :/
Pretty much all four-whatever names have been used by some kind of musical quartett but that shouldn't keep us from finding a nice name.
Anyway... I started with FOURMULA because an emulator is kinda like a "magic formula" (ok, maybe not but to me it's still magic to see plus/4 stuff running on PCs).
However, FOURMULA sounded a bit dull... there's still something missing. Though, I liked that it contains "MUL" as in eMULator. So the next step is... FOURMULATOR
I'm undecided... I still like "FOURCE". It might be more powerfull and doesn't have that "Terminator"-taste to it. And I wouldn't spell it "4mulator"... I'm a typography buff and for various reasons I'd rather use "fourmulator" (not capitalized, I did so above just emphasize the names) plus a logo
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2007-03-29
02:02:15
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Hi, IstvanV!
I've encountered with problems during compilation of ep128. I got the next message during configuration stage
Checking for C type PaStreamCallbackTimeInfo... no
WARNING: using old v18 PortAudio interface
And the next message during compilation stage
gui/debug_fl.cpp:728: error: 'class Fl_Text_Editor' has no member named 'cursor_color'
There were many other warnings during compiling of files. The version 19 of PartAudio was used. Can you give me some advice? 
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-29
06:03:21
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
I assume you are compiling the beta release tarball (the current CVS sources of the 'ep128emu' project have Plus/4 emulation removed) ? Anyway, it is possible that old v18 PortAudio files get into the way somehow; one solution that has been reported to work is to download and compile http://www.portaudio.com/archives/pa_stable_v19_061121.tar.gz, and copy the files include/portaudio.h and lib/.libs/libportaudio.a to the ep128emu2 directory. It is recommended to use the latest stable version of FLTK (1.1.7), and it should be compiled with the --enable-threads configure option. Unfortunately, many Linux distributions include an FLTK package compiled without --enable-threads.
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Posted By
MagerValp
on 2007-03-29
11:17:13
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
I'm personally only interested in a good +4 emulator for MacOS X, as VICE doesn't work and YAPE isn't available. I haven't had the time to fool around with FLTK versions though, but as soon as I do I'll let you know. Personally I prefer wxWidgets, as you get native widgets on each platform.
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Posted By
TLC
on 2007-03-30
06:57:34
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Structure: VICE has provided a convenient example on that as I guess (multiple architectures, single executables for each). Name: no ideas. Though, something referring to the project itself, rather than one particular emulated machine sounds nicer to me (provided that you keep multiple architectures).
There's a problem, however. Something has been suggested about your code being stolen by someone, especially someone whom I respect. You didn't say his name, but obviously, nobody else is in position to compete with your project so that you would have cared about it. Personally, if I were someone who has been accused of stealing someone else's (whom my project is currently competing with) code, that party won't have left this place without knowing my opinion about this matter (though, later I'd have probably regretted getting my hands dirty). This matter hasn't been (yet) resolved. Others probably don't know (may deduct from the fact that this project has became what it is with you been nowhere around, though), you may think what you want, but I actually know that this accuse has been false and undeserving. This needs resolution. If it won't , the situations looks like that, say, me supporting either of your party effectively boosts conflict (I'm helping someone that the other party is cross with); from that on, I have options of supporting either of you, but not both (or as a third resort, possibly keep my hands off of both of your projects). I'm talking about myself, but I've got some suspicion that others will also face this situation, sooner or later. You both should resolve this thing, in private, or just as you like... else, I (and sooner or later, a couple of others from here) will face having to make a choice... something (fractionalizing into "with" or "against" clics) that noone from the Plus/4 scene would find good in general I'm sure.
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2007-03-30
08:19:12
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
@TLC: Istvan didn't drop names, and you did neither. so why are you boiling up that thing? Personally i don't share Istvans point of view aswell, but i don't think we need another quarrel that leads to nowhere.
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Posted By
TLC
on 2007-03-30
08:57:53
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
@Dr. Death: I did name someone in my previous post (in the first place)... but even if there were no names mentioned, that wouldn't change anything. Mentioning no names wouldn't mean that anything is just simply solved (something that just "is"). As a theoretic test: being in the very position of the accused, you'd probably think differently. Why am I "boiling" this up? You probably don't understand this at the moment, but for me, deciding whether this will, or won't have a solution directly affects whether I should, or should not deal with some particular projects (projects whose ideals I otherwise like, but might see them failing in practice). Yep, I myself can't solve this problem. Maybe nobody can... but that's not my business; my business is (if at all) to call attention that this just exists, and has consequences.
In fact I sincerely don't want anyone be debating about these (whether they apply or not, whether we like some particular person or not, or whether we like some particular project or not), I wanted to express that this problem just exists, and there are possible consequences. ...I want peace, but not one that has unresolved personal issues in this position. I sincerely hope that it can be solved, that's it.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-30
10:03:44
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
As it is now, I have split the project into two separate single-machine emulators, ep128emu and plus4emu (which might be renamed based on suggestions). While I find it a technically preferable solution to have a single multi-machine emulator - as long as I do actually intend to actively support more than one machine - users seem to like emulators written specifically for their favorite machine, and the addition of others is generally perceived to be just a source of compromises to be made affecting the quality, performance, and usability. So, I would probably make a "final" release for both single machine emulators, but then only continue to actively develop one of them (I am personally more interested in Plus/4 emulation at the moment, but it seems to be not as well received by users, and there are already many other emulators; I should probably also take into account the feedback after the separate releases, the number of downloads, etc.).
Regarding the stolen code issue: well, I do not know, nor care much about how respected any particular person is here, but I do find it suspicious when in a very short amount of time, several non-trivial hardware aspects are "discovered" by a closed source project, just after they appear in my code, and even some bugs are the same. There is still a non-zero chance that it is just coincidence, but I cannot know for sure either way, and I also did not say that I am certain, only suspicious. Of course, the ideal (but very improbable) solution would be to not have closed source in the first place. In the end, this is all just another reason not to choose the Plus/4 as the machine to focus on in the future, but is not by itself important enough to make a decision.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-30
10:08:05
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
MagerValp: switching to wxWdigets could be an interesting idea in the future, although I am more familiar with FLTK. For now, it would probably be best to report the link errors on the FLTK forums, maybe the developers there know how to work around them.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2007-03-30
10:59:27
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
several non-trivial hardware aspects are "discovered" by a closed source project, just after they appear in my code, and even some bugs are the same
Really? Let's hear the details. Don't forget: YAPE's source is only closed to you, not necessarily to other you-don't-care-if-they-are-well-respected members of our community.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-30
11:38:39
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Well, you mentioned a name, not me. But do I have a reason to reveal details ? Probably not, and why would I help something that is "only closed to me" by reporting its bugs ?
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2007-03-30
16:21:30
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Well I did not want to get into a flame war, but since I have been accused I must react I think. Your double talk ("closed source emulator", "you mentioned a name, not me") is ridiculous and hypocrite since there is only one that really exists at the moment and that's mine. If you are accusing someone publicly at least be a man to name things on their names and do it straight. Those non-trivial aspects you are most likely refering to, have long been known for a couple of people here, you could not possibly think you have been the first and only person on Earth who could discover them. If you knew a little economics you could know that competition triggers innovations, more updates and usually consumers benefit from it. The reason that some particular details have not been fully researched or even just implemented for a long time (in Yape, in VICE or in a couple other emulators) is not that I (or others) have been waiting on a messiah to show us the way or be able to steal code from, but rather a sign of being a human with a real life, priorities in it and therefore usually precious little spare time. It's just a hobby, you see. You don't get paid for doing this either, do you?
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2007-03-30
19:05:07
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
You don't have to reveal details, but that's even worse IMHO. First you are making baseless accusations, and now apparently you have nothing to back them up with.
Gaia doesn't need your bug reports. Enough of us are doing that already. Why do you think I was able to help you by giving you a list of problematic programs so quickly? This is what we do. All the time. Look at software, hack the TED.
Gaia doesn't need to steal anything from you. His emulator is better than yours in every aspect I can think of. (Sure, yours compiles on other platforms too.)
Gaia hasn't stolen from you. Yes, I've seen the sources. I've also been working with him on the new version, 0.73. It will load even more programs and emulate them better than before. There are still problems, but it's not like you know the answer to any of those issues.
That's it from me about this subject. Your behavior and actions speak for themselves.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2007-03-30
20:16:55
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Did Gaia steal from you!? Woha, that means he perpetrates his evil plan since YEARS! Attila you're a tenacious bastard inside then, lol! We tested the stuff comparing with the real machine so many times, but those efforts weren't required then, or you used all of us as camouflage!
Sincere congrats IstvanV, you tried to take a flame in the most friendly, familiar scene ever, it's a world record!
I wanna be positively constructive (after all, we steal time to our jobs/families/children for fun, no?): now your passion and real interest have to play, if you feel like hanging in your project looking ahead, and if you feel to be sure of you and to contribute to the best of your ability, come on and shut up all our blabbing mouths.
The other option is so clear: time to turn your project toward the "other machine", with my best wishes.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-03-31
06:56:46
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Nice flames. These pretentious and offensive responses make it clear that the best thing to do is to leave this forum and never look back, and I choose exactly that. There are more useful things to do than wasting time fighting a mob of arrogant people. I will not even bother reading further replies, because I know that they will not be of more value than what I have already seen so far.
By the way, I do have a number of tests that fail on YAPE, but I already know how to emulate correctly, so I would not be so sure about this "better in every aspect". And, of course you can also say that I have "baseless accusations", but then I have no more reason to believe your claims that I cannot verify, either.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2007-03-31
07:22:59
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
...therefore, in the whole universe, you can always find an excuse to miss verifying!
That's the sad destiny of potential geniuses: hang in bad ppl's misunderstanding...
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Posted By
Crown
on 2007-03-31
09:54:55
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Guys, my short comment is 'just grow up, and get over with it'...
Istvan, if you'd read back a couple years the forum posts here and the plus4 mailing list archive, you would see that indeed all these special 'hard' to emulate effects has been discussed in details here, ie how they work, why they work, and what they do... This used to be a pretty free informal forum, where the people who make interesting effects on the real machine do discuss on what they did and how they did it.... There are really no secrets to it... Also there was always a healthy friendly discussion beetween the emulator writers (Mike, Gaia, Zsolt, me and others), on what we do, and how we do it... None of these people actually need to look into your sources, because they all know, what are the flaws in their respective emulators, and they also have planned solutions for them... What they do not always have is time, to actually implement it....
Also their is absolutely no glory, or awards here, if you are looking for that, than you are at the wrong place, self satisfaction by solving 'hard' issues is pretty much enough for the people here, so their is no vanity motivation to go and steal others sources, they are pretty much self motivated, and you should also get your motivation from that...
I do think that you owe an apology here, people who frequent this forum are not paranoid, and has been always open to each other, and you pretty much disturbed that peace with unfounded accusation.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2007-03-31
09:56:00
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
All right then, let's wrap it up.
You are all talk and no proof. Run away if you like. My claim is: I have seen the source, no stealing. Your claim: you think someone stole from you. (I conveniently highlighted the difference for you there to make it simple.) You did make accusations, you did not back them up with a single shred of proof, and therefore antagonized our forum members. This is the textbook definition of a troll. I guess a troll would see as a mob of arrogant people, instead of look at his own behavior.
I'm not angry at all, but from the little time I have known you, the behavior you exhibited made me not like you one bit. I wouldn't work on any project with you, that's for sure. Anyway, good luck with your future projects.
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2007-03-31
09:57:09
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Et voila!
@TLC: Now it is solved.
In fact it has been solved way before. On one side, most of the +4-world people simply *know* that Gaia didn't steal code. Theres Csabo, there's Luca, there's You and other people (i had the honour to donate one or two TED-inaccuracy-reports myself) who are in close contact to Gaia and see (and help) YAPE evolve. No question about that.
On the other side there's IstvanV from which i didn't really expect a different response. I still believe there's a different story behind this. It's not about Emu-Code-Ripping, i think it's about IstvanV searching for a specific project and community - and he expected to find it here. He must be desperate in his search, otherwise he could give his project at least a little time to grow roots (in some forum!?). I asked several posts before, if he just could *explain* what he wants and expects - but didn't get an answer.
And personally i have big problems with people that show up, just telling: "here come CVS repository! code!" - to me it still looks like IstvanV never wanted to be part of this community, but the community being part of his project. It just doesn't work that way. But if this wasn't his intention, he *simply* could have said it. As long as there are no *personal words* (from the heart), he's going to "fight" a lot of other "arrogant mobs", i guess...
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2007-03-31
14:07:37
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Well, what can I say... I think we have not ignited those flames ourselves. What I see is that the guy was really obsessed, came 4-5 times every day to my website, even during the day when I'm normally at work and can't do crap on Yape. Maybe he was looking for the CVS tree?
For those inclined, here is an interesting piece how he used to fight another bunch of "arrogant mobs" in another project (which he eventually left as well):
http://www.nabble.com/New-Csound-distribution-tf1844542.html
I side with DrDeath that this is more of a psychological problem...
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Posted By
TLC
on 2007-03-31
20:39:31
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Having read back the responses for the last couple of hours while I've been away, well... What could I say? ...I'm happy that now it's over, but I feel a slightly bittering taste in my mouth nevertheless.
My original intent with pushing the envelope was to tip this matter over. I haven't known how it will turn out at the end, but it's usually better to make a clean breast of things.
At the start, I really liked that István was working on an opensource, multiplatform emu for the Plus/4... something that a couple of us have been waiting for long. ...And it's not just about the technical side, although I'd obviously prefer a nice, enhanced emulator for Linux (and Coyote would probably welcome a similar one for MacOS-X, as he hasn't had PCs for ages). What (for me) is more important that I prefer programs whose creators don't ask who you are, instead, you're explicitely given all material -- including the source that you can potentially learn from -- to play with just as you like, should you be anyone. For the C64, there have been projects like that around for ages (VICE, for example). For the Plus/4, there aren't (and never were). ...With all due respect, I don't consider VICE -- at its current emulation accuracy -- such an emulator.
Sure, István's social capabilities don't seem to be like of that of the top level, but for me that's pretty much indifferent, as long as respect is kept and technical issues can be discussed. He also said he really won't give a damn and respect someone just because he's respected by a couple of people.... and unlike you'd expect, I guess he was right. Neither would I do that. (He didn't mention personal respect, which should always apply, though).
I'm wondering about István's motives; he really wouldn't have needed to accuse anyone by theft, considering his programming and researching potential (remember, his TED engine considerably approached the accuracy of that of Yape's, and this is _not_ just a question of time and effort; considering the work of discovering the really deep parts of the TED, this takes actual talent... I don't think that I need a proof here, but if you doubt that, go and try doing it yourself). But he did, he did it like he did (hipocritically), and that was a key issue. With those motives in mind, he was really unsuitable for the position that he set himself into (to be a leader of a real opensource project). But I didn't want to say that myself; I wanted him to say that instead. He could as well have told me that he was a right one, if he wanted (or if he was). And I also couldn't step out of this case having left a pistol in his hand kept to Gaia's head; I mean him having the possibility of keeping on accusing Gaia of theft whenever he just wants, knowing that he could never prove not doing that (with his code being of closed source), let alone support this "opensource" project by any means.
Note, though, that this is just a partial victory.
It didn't solve but one issue. And whilst István turned out to be uncapable of leading a real opensource Plus/4 emu project, noone of us got any better by this a single bit, and we also don't have someone who is.
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2007-04-01
00:22:25
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
I downloaded his emulator yesterday, just to see what all the fuss is about.
I have to admit, the interface looks cleaner than YAPE. But as I used it and had other windows going, I had window remnants that bugged the heck out of me. Plus, fading the drop-down menus in and out was kinda weird since I have that turned off within Vista.
While using IstvanV's emulator, I decided that I preferred Gaia's drop-down menus. It's obvious how to attach a disk image within YAPE, for example. I still don't know how to do it in this "new" emulator.
And what's with the multiple config files? Do I want 3+1? Or 3+1 with I/O? When I have the Plus/4 emulation running, I shouldn't be given the option of loading an EP128 config file.... at least that's my opinion.
And I thought the 128 emulation was for the Commodore 128, not an EP128. I still don't know what an EP128 is..... it seems to be a Star Trek computer or something.
I just got the impression that IstvanV's emulator is intended for whomever uses that Ep128 thing, or maybe someone with more programming experience than I have. YAPE is oriented more toward how I use my PC and my Commodore.
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Posted By
MagerValp
on 2007-04-02
16:13:50
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Well this sucks :/
I don't suppose there's a chance of an updated YAPE SDL? Or even better YAPE with wxWidgets...
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2007-04-02
18:58:11
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
There is, actually, but I have very little spare time recently. Yape/SDL could be updated though. I always planned a clean port (actually, with wxWidgets...) but never got around to do it time-wise.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2007-04-03
01:51:05
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
the reality shows that this ep128 is in general second to Yape. It misses 1551, fast IEC, and P00 format support and has *raw* debugger. I found that Yape and ep128 has different sources by different effects shown by "3.ext.border" demo at "5 magics" disk. I'm curious - which emulator shows the correct picture?
I was stopped by trouble with FLTK at Linux and use Microsoft Windows to test ep128. BTW it could be very nice to see RPM package for Linux.
The TED accuracy of ep128 is very good. I can assume the existence of the *secret vault* with BIG KNOWLEDGE about TED. I hope that Gaia or IstvanV will show one day the hidden path to it. BTW I plan to analyze ep128 sources (which are under GNU GPL) and use results to speedup of development of my old emulator. Do I plan to steal anything?...
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Posted By
MagerValp
on 2007-04-03
04:27:56
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Gaia: let me know if you need testing on a Mac...
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-06-16
09:24:55
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Responding to this old thread, I would like to say that I no longer accuse people of stealing code. It was a bad idea to come up with this without real evidence, and I was not sure anyway, so I must apologize to those who were offended. While it probably does not change the opinions of many, I still had to make this clear.
Regarding criticisms of my emulator:
- I do have 1551 emulation now, and it seems to work quite well
- fast IEC emulation is indeed missing, although I did not target the emulator at people with slow machines
- P00 format - I never used it, anyway, it probably would not be very difficult to add
- "raw debugger" - well, it can always be improved; I do have watchpoints and some other features, though
- the 5 magics extended sideborder effect is displayed correctly in my emulator, I have compared it to the real machine
- Linux binary packages (.tar.gz, not .rpm) are available, and if you compile from sources, the README does describe what dependencies are needed and how they should be configured
- I do not have any "secret vault" of hardware information - what I know is mostly in the emulator sources, with the exception of a few minor details that are expensive to emulate and not known to be needed by existing programs
- using my code in other GPL licensed emulators is perfectly fine, just preserve the copyright notices, and in general follow the license
- the "ep128 thing" has been moved to a separate emulator
- disk images can be set up in the floppy configuration dialog (Alt+D)
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-06-20
16:18:53
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Well, the lack of response suggests that it may be too late now to undo the harm, even though I would have liked to, and the earlier comments are serious enough to make it likely that those who have made them will not change their position. Unfortunately, the same seems to be apparent from private mailing with TLC. So, if others are interested in continuing my emulator project, and have serious intentions, I would allow them to take over (but keeping the copyright and GPL license) - this would solve what is seen as a main problem, that is, that I am involved. If not, I will continue to maintain it, although the generally negative reception is somewhat discouraging.
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2007-06-21
02:38:44
 | Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
hey istvan! its an already cool emulator, im using it together with yape to test our stuff. Keep your head up, i will use it!!!
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Posted By
SVS
on 2007-06-21
02:48:22
 | Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Istvan, do not leave, pls!
The lack of feedbacks is pretty standand... remember the old comment of NightBird: "who code for Plus4 is coding for himself" (mainly at least).
Then: since Chronos and me (and I guess others silently) are using your emulator, you're encouraged to continue development, OK?
Thank you pal.
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Posted By
indi
on 2007-06-21
05:58:39
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Have to agree.....dont make emulators for others - do it for yourself, of someone uses it great, if not its still great fun.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-06-21
08:57:33
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
I did not say that I want the emulator to be discontinued. If there are other developers really interested in working on it, but do not consider me a suitable project leader, I may leave if that is expected to lead to a more successful project in the end. Otherwise, I continue the development.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2007-06-25
01:48:29
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
A lot of thanks for the continuation of the development! Your emulator has become in some ways the best for now. You wrote about lack of responses but we are very small community...  BTW what do you think about quantity of users of "forever?" emulator for DOS? However the its development has become hobby and it is good enough to run 95-97% of all +4 programs. All present emulators have missed printers and some other devices (like light pen) support. So your emulator may be the first here...
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-06-30
14:42:05
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
You are right, there are other projects that get even less attention, so I should not really have complained.
I may try implementing printer (hardware level ?) and lightpen emulation, if I can find sufficient information. Right now, I am working on new TV emulation code, which is mostly done now; there are many improvements, although it is also unfortunately slower than the previous version. Another - planned - change in the 1.2.0 version is improving the debugger.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2007-07-02
02:41:04
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Yes, indeed. The debugger is the weak point. The documentation about light pen available inside program that supports lightpen! IMHO this emulation is the hardest task...
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-07-04
18:55:29
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
Well, I would like to add video breakpoints (i.e. setting breakpoints on specific TED video positions), tracing/logging instructions to a file, and maybe a tedmon-like monitor. I did have a look at one lightpen implementation (at the GOTU homepage) which uses the joystick input; are there any others ?
For now, there is a Windows package at http://www.sharemation.com/IstvanV/p4e120b1.zip for testing the new TV emulation; the GL shader code may possibly not work on some machines.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-07-07
12:25:31
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
There is a simple monitor now in the SVN version; at this time it only supports the A, D, >, and M commands, but more can be added later. If this feature is worth having, then it can probably replace the command line input in the "memory" tab, since that becomes redundant.
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2007-07-12
16:58:02
| Re: Beta version of new emulator is now available
I was able to get the Trojan Light Pen working with a hacked version of the emulator. This code is not in the SVN, as it needs a better, less hackish implementation. The basic idea is to generate a joystick 1 fire button pulse (the exact timing and length is not certain, but it does not seem to be very critical) whenever the raster position matches the position of the light pen; also, when it is at a black pixel, no joystick input pulse is generated.
The monitor is mostly done now, but the other planned new debugger features are not yet.
I had a look at some printer related information on zimmers.net, and emulating the 1526 might be possible, but this is not sure yet. Is some other model, or IEC level emulation a better choice ?
Did anyone test if the TV emulation and GL shader code work well in the previously posted build ?
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