| Posted By
JamesD
on 2006-08-13
21:12:41
|  Missed opportunities with the Plus 4
Back in the mid 80s there was a Basic computer literacy class that people could take. It was sort of a nation wide initiative in the US and might have also stretched into Canada. The class taught BASIC and some other fundamental computer related stuff.
For the price of the class I think you got a kit that included a Timex Sinclair 1500 (16K Sinclair ZX81 in a silver/grey Spectrum case), program (tape) recorder with cables and class materials all in a breifcase. I think most poeple that had them took the class, hated the thing and then stuck it in a closet when it was over. These things turn up on eBay a couple times a month and most look like they were never used.
I brought it up because the 1500 supposedly retailed for $69 at that time. It's too bad CBM didn't come out with the 264 at the original $79 price. It would have been perfect for the class with up to 60K available to BASIC. I think a lot fewer of them would have ended up in a closet and the class might have actually stuck around longer.
CBM would have sold a lot of computers off of the class alone not to mention the word of mouth sales that would have followed.
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2006-08-14
11:09:07
| Re: Missed opportunities with the Plus 4
According to the Bil Herd/Dave Haynie video from last year, the 264 series (or TED series as it was originally known) was originally intended to compete with these very machines. The original target design (which eventually became the Commodore 116) was actually inspired by the Sinclair Spectrum, and was to cost $49, to match the price of the Timex Sinclair 1000 (the US version of the ZX81)
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2006-08-14
11:29:21
| Re: Missed opportunities with the Plus 4
Targeting the plus/4 as a "business computer" had probably been one of the first of the many bad marketing decisions about to come in those years, that eventually led to the bankruptcy of Commodore. That really tells us who used to be the real marketing genius at the company...
Actually, after the failure on the US market, Commodore did target the 264 line as a cheap learning machine for home use in Europe but it was already too late by then. It can still be considered as a minor success here, though, albeit not when comparing it with the C64, of course.
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Posted By
Ulysses777
on 2006-08-14
13:07:03
| Re: Missed opportunities with the Plus 4
Indeed, after it was discontinued in 1985, Commodore UK started selling the Plus/4 with a datasette and 11 games for £100, which is approximately what it should have cost in the first place (it was originally launched at £300 with no accessories).
This package evidently sold well enough to warrant an increase in commercial releases during 1986, as more software companies started supporting the machine.
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Posted By
JamesD
on 2006-08-14
13:25:42
| Re: Missed opportunities with the Plus 4
The 116 was intended to compete with the Sinclair Spectrum (I saw the video too) even though what he had was a 1000.
This brings up some very important things about the American market.
In the early 8bit days you could go out and get a buyers guide that would tell you what to look for in a computer and what to look out for.
One of the first items on the list is a "real keyboard" and almost all manufacturers didn't understand that until after they tried to market a "toy" one.
At least 16K of RAM and expandability to at least 32K or 48K which eventually became 64K/128K.
We want to plug in new hardware to do new things. Expansion ports are good.
We want color! We see in color and like games in color. B/W is ok for business but then the computer has to look like a business computer.
Sound, we play games and we like sound even if it's crappy Apple II sound.
Disk drives. We can't all afford them but we want them so it must be an option.
Image is important. We want something that looks like a real computer and not just a toy. The real keyboard is as important here as it is for typing.
Basic, you must have some sort of "standard" Microsoft Basic.
There must be pleanty of software. If it is going to serve as a game machine it must have disks or carts because tape is too slow.
Now then, the Timex Sinclair 1000 was $50 but Americans hated it. It looked like a toy, worst keyboard ever, didn't have enough RAM, the RAM expansion was flaky, not even an on/off switch, it had B/W video, no sound, you couldn't touch type, the graphics were crappy, the Basic was minimal, you couldn't enter Basic commands without looking for the single key entry for them and the 50% failure rate didn't help. They tried to revamp it and the 1500 was the result but nothing that mattered to the consumer had really changed. I think it ended up selling just as cheap as the 1000 but initially it was more. It didn't go over any better than the 1000.
I think the Spectrum would have fared better than the 1000/1500 but if you look at the last Timex Sinclair model you'll notice they were starting to figure out the American market. Larger/better key board, better expandability, game cart port, sound chip, more RAM... you get the idea.
Which brings us to the 116/264/Plus 4. The 116 was color, had 16K, sound, disk drives and a larger keyboard but it would have suffered from some very important things. Lack of expandability, a "toy" rubbery keyboard and it doesn't look like a "real" computer to the American consumer. Chicklet and rubbery keyboards were about gone by this time in the USA. People would pay an extra $10-$20 for a real keyboard.
Now then, the 264 adds a REAL keyboard, pleanty of RAM (esp from BASIC), expandability and it looks kinda cool. If it hadn't been introduced as a business computer but as an entry level machine it wouldn't have been trashed in the press and probably would have been rated a best buy in that category.
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2006-08-14
22:53:39
| Re: Missed opportunities with the Plus 4
Now then, the 264 adds a REAL keyboard, pleanty of RAM (esp from BASIC), expandability and it looks kinda cool. If it hadn't been introduced as a business computer but as an entry level machine it wouldn't have been trashed in the press and probably would have been rated a best buy in that category.
It would have competed against the C64 if it were priced the same or less. That's why the C16 was sold, as an entry level machine.... and it sold reasonably well against the Timex Sinclair. The 116 was not offered in North America, but in Europe only.
The point of the Plus/4 being oriented toward business (or home office type) applications was specifically to hit a different market than the other Commodore offerings. It made a good alternative to the PET/CBM line that had recently been dropped. Plus, it gave CBM something different to sell to schools (so that the schools' C64s wouldn't keep going home with students).
I agree that the price was too high compared to the C64. The C64 should have stayed in the low to mid $200 range, and the Plus/4 slightly cheaper ($175-200)... and then the C64 clarified as a deluxe system with advanced sound and movable objects (sprites).
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Posted By
JamesD
on 2006-08-15
00:49:12
| Re: Missed opportunities with the Plus 4
Did you watch the Bil Herd/Dave Haynie video?
The 264 was supposed to retail for $79 with no built in software. Only $20 more than the 116 was supposed to sell for and IMHO better suited for the US market.
The Plus 4 was a middle management changeover after the real boss left.
The C64 was still over $200 when the machine was released. At less than half the price (actually closer to 1/3) of the C64 there wouldn't have been a problem and CBM could have even slowed down the C64 price cuts because they didn't have to worry about the Spectrum undercutting their sales like they had done to everyone else.
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2006-08-15
07:59:09
| Re: Missed opportunities with the Plus 4
Did you watch the Bil Herd/Dave Haynie video?
I should hope so, I hosted the download a year ago!
The 264 was supposed to retail for $79 with no built in software.
The "TED Computer" was supposed to be a sub-$100 machine, yes. But the "TED Computer" morphed into three machines: the 16K sub-$100 machine, the 264 (with a variety of built-in software available), and the 364 (with numeric keypad and speech).
At the first public viewing of the 264 (January 1984 Comsumer Electronics Show), the machine was shown as a mock-up. Specifications were for several different 264 machines, each having a different built-in software: word processing, spreadsheet, LOGO, etc. The machine was stripped down to a single built-in software (3+1) when it was renamed the Plus/4.
And it was at this very show that Tramiel quit Commodore. His sons remained at Commodore long enough to get the TED machines into production, then they quit too. By January 1985's CES, the Tramiels were firmly in control at Atari.
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Posted By
JamesD
on 2006-08-15
11:53:35
| Re: Missed opportunities with the Plus 4
Watch the video again. 116, the original "TED" for $49. The improved version, the 264 was originally $79. They didn't say how much the 364 would cost but that really was supposed to be a business computer. I'm guessing from the comments about the prototype that it wouldn't cost over $100 to build either. Remember, CBM manufactured most of the stuff themselves.
Which brings it back to the original topic. At $79 the computer was only $10 more than the 1500 included with the Computer Literacy package and they would have been much happier with the 264. I don't think they would have minded spending another $10 to get a "real" computer.
BTW, does the C16 have a different board layout than the 116 or is it a 116 motherboard in a modified VIC20 case? Either way it probably didn't cost them over $55 to make.
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Posted By
JamesD
on 2006-08-15
13:11:20
| Re: Missed opportunities with the Plus 4
After a quick search I found that the "Educational Pack" was mostly a commercial thing and maybe just something a local community college latched onto rather than some sort of national thing.
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