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| | Previous Messages | Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-30
04:22:31
|  Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@MMS: You are welcome 
Thargoids were funny. That was the main reason I made those cheats, to make fun of them. 
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-03-28
11:51:17
 | Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
I deleted my comment as it was too much OFF from the original topic. Probably I will initiale a new topic on that AI matter.
BTW at beginning of the 90s I also spent a lot of time with Elite in front of my CRT TV, wandering in the Galaxy.
I met only once the Thargoids, and I was dead in a minute... Good old days :-)
(I also own on PC Elite Dangerous (even checked it on VR headset), not to mention Frontier.
Both of these games downloaded instantly, based on the great times I spent with Pigmy's conversion. Thanks!)
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Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-26
13:38:11
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Luca: I can understand your choice, and you are lucky that you can choose this. I'm afraid what you call below-avarage in Italy is called a career here in Hungary
Actually we do nearly the same. Both of us tries to collect the good things from the Plus/4 era and live for that.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2023-03-26
11:10:45
 | Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
Oooh well done Csabo, Time And Magik collection includes that gem represented by the remake of Red Moon in bitmap graphics, and I played that adventure for sooo long.
Yes, I'm not the big text adventures' fan you can imagine, but I'm used to play'em all (the adventures ported by KiCHY? I missed zero of those, few were awful, some were interesting, some were great, all were driven by KiCHY's passion for the machine. That's why I voted for all of those releases – side note: VOTE FOR ANYTHING!
For example, I loved The Curse Of Rabenstein, which is short, easy and fascinating. I proudly solved it within few hours and then I added my solution... Which has been cringingly "stolen" by the crackers of ROLE on C64 (read here the embarassing chitchatting with them).
Just like Lavina I'd lost too into Elite +4, and my historical play is still here stored as a .fre file and saved everywhere, to be played occasionally when the inspiration comes. Even though I've snitched in the code to count how enemies are missing to become ELITE... And I am lightyears distant yet  Spoiler: is always super fun, and any single trip across the galaxy is a new story to be written!
@Pigmy I recognise and value the effort you're having talking about personal facts of your past, involving choices you did for life, and this lets me open myself too, after all those years, to expose a tiny slice of my story too
Probably almost no one in these years knows (Degauss yes, probably) that I have deliberately turned down the career which my titles allowed me to begin, literally in order to save free time and low responsibilities, to follow my passions and hobbies, setting my social position in a below-average personal economy. And you know that the Plus/4, as it represents a heavy part of both my youth and present life, is the reason #1 for sure Nowadays I understand that this kind of choice has been possible only due the fact I live in Italy, where Care System is public and a somewhat "non-vertical economy" doesn't "punish" you if you don't point toward a growing career. I thank the God of Retro Gaming Laziness every morning to make me do this holy choice!
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Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-26
04:57:46
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Csabo: Wow, I didn't know these were all converted. My Plus/4 interest somehow passed in 1991 and I don't really know what happened after that. But Crown didn't even tell me he converted all those adventures in 1998, even though I was living in his flat at the end of 1998 when I moved to Budapest (or I forgot it meantime). I knew about Twin Kingdom Valley only.
Pigmy was frozen in 1991 and it's a time jump every time I switch back to him in a nostalgic wave It's always 1991 in my head at such times and sometimes I am surprised.
Yesterday I thought I would have been happy to convert many of these if I had them, but there was no internet to just download them and I could reach only these. I liked converting them and I like complete collections of good things.
But you know what I talk about as I can see
@MMS: the converted codes were always full of inserted JSR's - sometimes with a few NOPs following - at the critical parts where it was not enough to just overwrite some addresses. That subroutine had to replace the overwritten part and to solve the task that did not fit in the original code. It was a kind of brain surgery with a scalpel It was always a task to find an unused area in memory where all these hacking subroutines could take place after each other. That's why Battle Chess did not have sound at all because the memory was just full, I had to sacrifice something. The converted code was always longer than the original one because of these hackings. An other problem was calling ROM routines, because the +4 ROM used different memory addresses and buffers than the C64 one, and calling a ROM routine could screw up the game, overwriting used areas. Sometimes it was needed to save critical areas used by the +4 ROM to a safe place while calling it and to copy that area back after it returned. But in Elite there was a very small free place for that, that's why I had to put a turbo for tape I/O because it did not have to use the ROM routines. And the ROM generally was switched off, but it had to be switched on sometimes when needed, and this was always a critical part not only because of the used RAM areas but the IRQ routine that was possibly running in the RAM area under the ROM. But there were no general solutions, every game was different, that's why it was an exciting challenge if you can solve it.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-03-26
04:14:48
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Pigmy and @Csabo
Well, guys you know the details.
Knowing the exact differences and similarities between the two machines could help a lot in the conversion process. With the SVS Ultimate map, this part is almost completely covered, though in the 80s and 90s such lists were hardly available.
But there are other details may block the "average user" to start his process, and it means me
Certainly the biggest challange is the sprite, and I do not want to go to these details, that's why arcade game creation is more complex on our system.
Pigmy, you wrote it down when you was 15 yo, how you did the sprite cursor of Tass Times with the help of raster, but it was "in chinese" for me at that time, and I did not grow to that level since then
Let's take an other simple challange, and adventure with graphics, drawn by the game, like The Hobbit. (certainly the "only text" adventures does not mean a real challange, if I know the different character map and color map addresses, and we have the proper color conversion table (also available now)). that's why we have so much on Plus/4.
But the question came up: when you have a Hires/MC draw routine in the C64 original game, it will draw the bitmap lines and at the same time puts the proper colors to the C64 color map. On the other hand, on Plus/4 you have to add the luminance too. So at least an additional 5 bytes you need to squeeze into the original code. So it is NOT simply changing few memory addresses, but you need to change the original code (except you fill up the luminance table with a fix values may fit for the C64 colors).
If you increase the size of the code in the memory, then everything else need to be shifted, and it may overwrite other important elements in the game.
So that's why I was so surprised you could do all these in the built-in TED monitor. And that's why I believe that usually it is not enough to blindly change the addresses :-)
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2023-03-25
19:04:47
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
I should know better than to port more of these I just counted them, I've converted 24 text adventures so far. Of course, that's nothing compared to KiCHY
Those old series mostly got finished. Questprobe was only missing Spiderman, you converted that. The Mysterious Adventures (which you started in '90) got finished by Crown in '98. The Scott Adams adventures I finished in the early 2000s, Gaia did a few of those.
The Level 9 adventures, I think we were only missing Gnome Ranger (which is a prequel), there are a few others, but they aren't part of any series.
I think some of the games KiCHY converted are part of series, that are missing some parts, but nobody's really asking for those... There are just too many to choose from.
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Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-25
18:01:36
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@MMS: It's interesting to see that list. I was always hunting for these, they were quite easy to convert. I'm just sorry that I couldn't get the rest, the list could have been complete. I found an other list, they all used nearly the same engine by Adventuresoft UK Ltd.: https://www.mobygames.com/game/company:5351/genre:adventure/sort:moby_score/page:1/ I only had a few of them like Gremlins, Spiderman, Secret Mission, etc.. I liked their graphics a lot.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-03-25
17:33:38
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
OMG! (One) THREE more!  This is fantastic!
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Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-25
17:08:45
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Csabo: It is becoming addictive.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2023-03-25
16:41:08
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
I guess these are "low hanging fruit" On that note, I found one more with the same engine: Time And Magik.
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Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-25
15:42:52
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Luca:
By the way, I've checked that list but the problem is that I don't have any idea about those dates. Sometime between 1987 and 1991... I'm afraid I didn't help that much.
@Lavina: Glad you had a good time playing Elite, it was worth it then :)
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Posted By
Luca
on 2023-03-25
14:59:26
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
Oh come on, The Mad could at least be Mad, Csabo is Csabo, don't fool with me!
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Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-25
14:46:03
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Csabo: you are mad I was thinking about how this could be done, because these games were quite similar inside, and finally thought maybe sometime, when I will have time and mood, years later... but thanks, you saved me
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Posted By
Lavina
on 2023-03-25
16:14:27
 | Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
Yeah, we all have a more personal story to tell, as the C+4 was a companion for all of us during the early years of our existence, shaped us, helped us in many ways. I literally played an entire summer vacation with ELITE +4 and I remember this experience very vivdly. So thanks for that many-many times!
For most of us who are still here (I unfortunately both mean alive and also attending this site), this small computer is still a cherished part of our lives. I still enjoy creating stuff on this 8 bit wonder, re-living those teen spirit that we had back then, at the golden age of the scene, every time a new demo effect is starting to work the way I intended it to. So both watching new releases and making own releases still entertains me. And the inspiration for creation comes from this community, the core remainder of the scene, because we are family. S31 will be back! 
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2023-03-25
12:06:37
 | Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
Congratulations! Nicely Done!
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-03-25
14:43:26
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Csabo: you are kidding me! I have now something important to do at the weekend :-D
OFF
Thanks to @Unlimited and Erich Laber (RIP, thanks pal for all your past great contribution to this scene!) there was a nice summary about Level 9 games in Club Info, he also mentioned the available conversions.
As it was in German, I translated to English and updated it to the latest status and the release year too (two converted games were missing from the list)
The adventure games of Level 9:
1. Colossal Adventure (1983 by Mike, Nick and Pete Austin - based on "Advent" by Will Crowther and Donald Woods
2. Adventure Quest (1983 by Mike, Nick and Pete Austin).
3. Dungeon Adventure (1984 by Mike, Nick and Pete Austin).
- These first three adventures formed the "Middle Earth Trilogy" and were later also as "Jewels of Darkness Trilogy" distributed. Later on Level 9 removed all names and direct referenced to Tolkien world (copyright issues?)
4. Snowball (1983 by Mike, Nick and Peter Austin).
Converted by TGMS in 1992 (text adventure)
5. Return to Eden (1984 by Nick Austin and Chris Queen, pictures by Tim Noyce).
6. Worm in Paradise (1985 by Mike, Nick and Pete Austin, pictures by James Horsler and Adrian Mole).
- Games 4th - 6th form the "Silicon Dreams Trilogy" about Kim Kimberley, a Secret agents and space navigator.
7. Lords of Time (1983 by Sue Gazzard and Ian Buxton).
8. Red Moon (1985 by David Williamson, Simon Aspinall, Pete Austin, Pictures of James Horsler).
Converted by Pigmy in 1991 (text + images adventure)
9. The Price of Magik (1986. Idea by David Williamson, realized by Pete Austin, Nick and Mike Austin, Pictures by James Horsler).
- Games 7th - 9th were later than "The Time and Magic Trilogy" summarized.
10. Gnome Ranger (1987 by Pete Austin and Peter McBride.) The game consists made of three parts, each part can be used for stand alone.
First game over Ingrid the gnome.
MAJOR UPDATE This adventure converted by Csabo+Pigmy to the Plus/4 in 2023 (text+images adventure).
11. Gnome Ranger II: Ingrid's Back (1988 by Pete Austin, Graham Jones, Peter McBride with the help of Mike and Nick Austin, John Jones-Steele, Mike Bryant Images by Dicon Peeke).
This three-part adventure converted by Pigmy to the Plus/4 in 1991 (text+images adventure).
- A third game of this series was made written and elaborated but never completely finished.
12. The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole Aged 13 3/4 (1985, author unknown - four-piece, each part can stand alone stand alone, no text parser, but many multiple choice questions).
13. The Growing Pains of Adrian Mole (1987 by Pete Austin, photos by Joan Lamb - again in four parts, multiple-choice, no text parser).
- Games 12th and 13th go back on Sue Townsend's children's books.
(MMS: these were one of my favoure books when I was teenager)
14. Emerald Isle (1984 by Shaun D. Abbott, pictures by James Hosler).
15. The Saga of Erik the Viking (1984, Author unknown - dating back to the book of the same name by Terry Jones).
The game appeared on the Plus/4 (converted by Pigmy, 1990). (text + images adventure)
16. The Archers (1986 by Pete Austin, Pictures by Joan Lamb - based on the British TV series of the same name Multiple choice questions, no text parser).
17. Knight Orc (1987 by Pete Austin, Artist of the pictures unknown - three-piece.
The game appeared on the Plus/4 (converted by Pigmy, 1991). (text + images adventure)
18. Lancelot (1988 by Christina Erskin, Pictures of Joan Lamb, Neil Scrimgeour, Dicken Peeke, Nusarath Jahan, System Administrators: Mike and Nick Austin, John Jones-Steele, Mike Bryant - in three parts, going back to the legend King Arthur, the wizard Merlin and the round table, as well as the search for the holy grail. That was the basis Book by Sir Thomas Malory "Le Morte D'Arthur").
This adventure converted by Pigmy to the Plus/4 (1991). (text + images adventure)
19. Scapeghost (1989 by Pete Austin, Sandra Sharkey and Pete Gerrard - three parts, originally the game was called "spook"). A dead detective return to earth to the living back to solve his latest case.
This game was converted by Pigmy to the Plus/4 (1990). (text + images adventure)
(20.) Extension Basic (The first program from Level 9) for Nascom computer.
(21.) Missile Defense (shooting game) for Nascom computer.
(22.) Champion of the Raj. Only for Amiga, ATARI ST, PC
(23). It came from the Desert (The original Amiga version by Cinemaware converted to PC).
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Posted By
Luca
on 2023-03-25
11:16:44
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
Hahaha, fantastic, a last-hour conversion by request! What a bomb, Csabo!
And yes, The Pawn FTW!
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Posted By
Ati
on 2023-03-25
08:50:19
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
Csabo, you are a killer! Congrats!
And to next saturday a nice Magnetic Scrolls adventure, Pawn?
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2023-03-25
08:33:34
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
Saturday is coming... Maybe a new Level9 conversion? Gnome Ranger?
Oh gosh, it's already Saturday, and I didn't even know we have to convert Gnome Ranger! Well, let's see... this file over there, change that byte, autodetect 1541, convert pictures, fix colors, and... got it: Gnome Ranger.
Whew, that was close.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2023-03-25
07:56:37
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Pigmy you've defined the situation veeery clear, thank for sharing this, even pushing beyond some personal boundaries, I appreciate it so much. I second who's asking for an occasional, even if symbolic only, comeback by you, nonetheless I totally comprehend your global vision and the overlapping of two different universes, distant in time only, you're managing into your life: we prefer a healthy and happy Pigmy over a comebacking one
Oh, meantime there are so many prods released by you, waiting for a missing date, you could simply edit them when you would have spare time, if you want
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Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-25
06:11:47
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Ati: Too bad I didn't come across this game back then
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Posted By
Ati
on 2023-03-25
05:53:45
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
Anno I played with this, but my brain isn't good for c64 game codes.
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Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-25
04:54:50
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Lavina: Of course, I was only joking. There are two problems: I have no inspiration. First time in my life I am bulding my own project from ground up for years and I am doing the same day by day that I did in my childhood, I am finding solutions for rare problems again and again on an unknown passage. In my childhood I did not do anything special on my own, everything was just learning and practicing and experimentation with other's code, but that was not a real work, just a quick challenge every time. I had to save my brain somehow from destroying by school After a total burnout 12 years ago at LogMeIn I started to search my way back to my childhood, to the times when something worked because I liked that. It was a winding road, now I live in Zalaegerszeg again, it's the same environment, the same air, the same green nature, the same calm, the same (retro) musics, the same atmosphere and the same challenges like in my childhood, and it seems to work now. But it is about the present and the future, and now I am building my own thing and not dealing with other's code, like at LogMeIn last time (I was porting the Windows code to Mac and Linux, and later after LogMeIn, I was finishing Marton Anka's (MAT - LogMeIn founder) own hobby project and porting it to Mac and Android (DesktopEarth), my doom has caught up with me every time). So I am dealing with my own project now finally, but in the same environment like that times, this is my own "retro" If I didn't do this I may convert games again, just for fun. But an other problem is that when I unpack the Commodores and I start to put floppy disks into the drive again and I am hearing the sound of it, and I try to find out what to do, leafing through my old floppy disks, I am feeling my childhood again, but not the good things. All the bad things, my family problems, my lonelyness at the border of the town, that fucking school, that decrepit communist dictatorship we lived in, that so boring life - that it was actually - where I tried to find out something not to be bored (this was the way these conversions were born), and I am getting psychosomatically ill. A few months ago it was the same then I packed everyting back to the boxes and I was cured in no time.
So that's the situation, but it's just very long to describe it this way, it's much easier to make fun of it with short excuses
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Posted By
Lavina
on 2023-03-24
18:21:29
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
It is surprising how one thinks that he was out of business concerning things he was able to do before. But once he tries to do it, he realizes it's not impossible to ride the bike again.
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Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-24
14:02:46
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Ati: Level 9? I remembered Level 8. Ehh, the lowest bit neuron seems to be died...
Gnome Ranger? I didn't even know this game existed. Aha, so that's why the other was called Ingrid's BACK!
I cannot convert any more, those neurons also died. I'm just a spiritual heir of that Pigmy, telling stories like a grandfather and sometimes talking nonsense
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Posted By
Ati
on 2023-03-24
12:43:55
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
Pigmy, Saturday is coming...
Maybe a new Level9 conversion? Gnome Ranger?
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Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-24
09:44:38
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Luca: Really? It's cool, this is the first time I hear anything about that intro. No one has said anything about it since then. I just hoped someone will like it, 32 years ago. So you did! Then it was worth it!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2023-03-24
08:46:57
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Pigmy hey the ppl here loves the overflowing storytelling attitudes, don't hold back!
OMG you've just awaken the memory of me coming at home from the school and reloading Ingrid's Back just to see that intro again!
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Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-24
08:04:15
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Luca: Did I generate the charset at the beginning? My first boss said: "Programmers are the laziest ones, they rather write code every time they do not want to do something." I'm sure I just didn't want to deal with characters I remember that intros were a pain for me every time, I didn't want to deal with them, the conversion is ready, works, fine, I put a picture at the beginning, dropped a signo there and that's all, looks like a real one, I'm ready! Let's move on. But I had a strong feeling that I must make an intro for Revs and Elite, so I tried to put some ideas there but I did not go too far In Elite's intro I used the BASIC ROM's line drawing routine becuase I remembered that it is very slow so it will look like an animated "effect" and I don't have to work on it...
The only intro I really put work in it was Scapeghost's one. I tried to make something like a movie intro. But I was lazy to create an other one for the similar Level8 adventures, like Lancelot, Knight Orc, Ingrid's Back, so I just copied it from Scapeghost, regardless of the fact that they didn't fit at all...
Yes, I cut out some part because I realized later that my brain overspinned a bit in storytelling.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2023-03-24
06:04:12
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Pigmy thank you for you kind words! I had to modify the code of your intro in orde to make it work the right way, so I'd be able to appreciate all the smart solutions you've found when you were a teen. I also switched to a proper 2x2 charset which looks smoother but very similar to the one you decided to generate on the fly in the initial seconds of the running intro (yes he did!). And the picture... Well, I hope that the love within can be felt very easily, your Elite's intro is a tangible image seared into my mind.
Thanks for the clarification, Csabo was right, I've mixed up the stories. Notes fixed.
Ah Pigmy I've done in time and read the part you've decided to cut out, that was another story to tell! ;)
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Posted By
Pigmy
on 2023-03-24
05:43:30
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Luca: I think that episode was Tir Na Nog in 1987, that was the first conversion by me from C64 - the first one was Sargon II from VIC20 - and we did not have a 1541 that times. Elite was a 1989 project, we already had a disk drive then.
This title picture is really cool! You must have worked on it a lot. That I never did in my childhood, as it can be seen on the original picture
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Posted By
Luca
on 2023-02-28
14:37:00
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
@Csabo possibly, I mixed up different glorious moments of conversions, but I remember this episode of saving the whole work of an entire session at the end of the day in one long tape saving.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2023-02-28
14:20:02
| Re: Elite +4: Circle Closes
That's an awesome update. Runs smooth, this is definitely the definite version of the game!
Not that it matters much, but are you sure about the "using only a Datassette" part? Disk saving is mentioned by Pigmy in the intro, and he converted many disk programs (like Duplicator) in '88.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2023-02-28
14:20:02
| Elite +4: Circle Closes
 Habemus "fixum" maximus! Mark Moxon turns back to the coding scene, and improves the flicker free version of the super classic Elite +4 released some months ago by (almost) fixing the planets' flickering too! The cleanest version of the "game of a lifetime" (cit.) is now here.
Elite +4 Flicker free Π (pron.: Elite +4 Flicker free Pi) is the title of this new and apparently ultimate hack of the famous 3D space trading simulation, where, after the first fix regarding the ships, the planets have been (almost) fixed too. Why we say "almost"? Well, in all the versions, including the BBC original where those patches have been based, planets still flicker a bit when partially off-screen. This is because of the way the ball line buffer works: it's a consequence of the way the circles are stored as sequential arcs, forcing the erase/redraw sequence to involve slightly different segments. So this isn't strictly flicker-free, but it's way better than the default. On C64 and Plus/4, this is even more evident due to the slower processor.
This was the best moment to celebrate the genius of Pigmy, the man who converted the game when he was 15, in less than a week, using only a Datassette and the internal ML Monitor of the machine. That's why Luca took his time to give the original intro a cooler aspect. Overall, with a modernized titlescreen and a stable wireframe 3D, *this* is the Elite +4 version worth to be run on your hardware.
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