 Previous Messages |
Posted By
MMS
on 2020-02-08
15:23:50
 |  Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
yepp, now it is great. I though I will see a picture.
I have to admit I've never used that function... In fact I stopped using interlace pictures after I bought my Dell monitor, as it vibrated like hell at 60Hz. (now with the Philips TV everything turned back to normal)
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Posted By
KiCHY
on 2020-02-08
09:38:53
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Here, with 3 sec work:
[ YAPE-lace.png ]
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2020-02-08
09:38:34
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
I don't wanna. Yesterday, the preview link in the uploader showed the picture. Also, if you copy the local path in the img tag and complete it with the site address, then the picture is shown. There's something wrong with the tag that I can't repair being HTML illiterate. The strange thing is that I copied into the message field the exact string the uploader offered.
Site admins, please, repair the image link in my previous post and delete this.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2020-02-08
04:17:48
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
gerliczer,
please upload second time, something went wrong.
Or maybe start a new thread.
Poor carrion just watching what happened with his post, a C128 VS +4 arm wrestling is just happening 
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2020-02-07
15:53:35
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
MIRKOSOFT wrote on 2020-01-14:
Of source screenshots are different for interlace mode. C128 emulator Z64K has deinterlacing available, but YAPE it has not - so there's possible to see only single frame.
I beg to differ. See this:
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Posted By
MMS
on 2020-02-06
19:17:15
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Well, really nice pictures!
Seems sooner or later I have to state C128 as a winner
( Anyhow, VDC gfx IC alone has equal RAM to Plus/4, and planned for a Z8000 professional UNIX computer
Red color: actually I think TED's real weakness is the missing intensive colors. Red, Orange, Brown, Yellow...
(next to the chance to have 16 different grey shades)
With such intensive colors (like Spectrum and CPC) more pictures could be more easily converted to our machine.
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Posted By
MIRKOSOFT
on 2020-02-06
17:24:10
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Ok.
I made some conversions.
Posted EGA picture in two modes:
1.640x480 px 8x2 cell http://conversion.mirkosoft.sk/ega.png
2. 480x252 px 8x1 cell http://conversion.mirkosoft.sk/ega8x1.png
The second is non-interlaced mode and there is main problem of all non-interlaced modes of VDC - aspect ratio - it is 1:2... So, I think that no matter if is 640x480 in8x2 cells - it looks better for this reason (and I think there's no generally visible attribute clash.
Other conversion is two strawberries.
1) http://conversion.mirkosoft.sk/strawberry1.png
Here's TED version http://conversion.mirkosoft.sk/strawberry1ted.png
and there's good red interpretation (read below why I'm talking about red9.
Here's VDC version http://conversion.mirkosoft.sk/strawberry1vdc.png
This is 480x252 pixel 8x1 color cell mode and even - non-interlace, so still picture
2) http://conversion.mirkosoft.sk/strawberry2.jpg
Here's TED version http://conversion.mirkosoft.sk/strawberry2ted.png
And here's main problem of red color interepretation - why it looks so like C64 red?
I think TED has not similar red coloring and this red is main problem of all C64 pictures...
Ihavetwo conversions to VDC - for compare:
1. 480x252 px 8x1 cell non-interlace (still picture) http://conversion.mirkosoft.sk/strawberry2vdc.png
2 640x576 px 8x3 cell interlaced http://conversion.mirkosoft.sk/strawberry2vdc576.png
My choice can be 2nd version.Maybe youhave in mind Q why 8x3 color cells... A: VDC can produce 8x2 also in this mode, but has not enough RAM... in my mind always stay - why C128 designers left not VDC from C900 like was - so with 128K VRAM... VDC could be more powerful.
Binaries are in two diskimages in this archive
http://conversion.mirkosoft.sk/pictures.7z
You can find there also two text EGA modes - yes, VDC can display EGA mode (also graphic) but in 16 colors.
But - warning - be careful and read what write program at start - if you use this mode on standard Commodore monitor (C1084, C1901 or similar)it damages it! It allows to display only C128DCR - it has VDC 8568 chip instead 8563. This chip has new 38th register which allows opposite sync - but this can't handle any CGA or standard Commodore monitor - only EGA monitoror modern display. This reverse sync allows to display EGA mode.
They're in 50 Hz and 60 Hz version.
Here's last (like it looks - dead thread):
http://conversion.mirkosoft.sk/eye.zip
Nice to compare and both results are great - maybe it needs deinterlaced TED picture to correct comparison.
Miro
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Posted By
MMS
on 2020-01-22
11:03:40
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
changing 40x 2 bytes at two different memory area per each rasterline needs some raw power.
It can be done only in every second one. C64 can do every line, but they need to change it once, and it is in dedicated Color Ram (that is an SRAM, requires (I suppose) less precise timing on the RAS/CAS signals than updateing the DRAM in Plus/4 (two times).
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Posted By
MIRKOSOFT
on 2020-01-20
18:23:59
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
I'm surprised that TED limit is CPU - AFAIK MOS 7/8501 runs de-facto at ~1,7MHz when is visible TED screen, less lines faster CPU. But here it is bit mysterious - VIC is limit for CPU - CPU is limit for TED - it looks vice versa...
correct me if it is mistake. On C128 MOS 8502 can run 2MHz but VIC screen must to be off - if is on, it displays garbage, fastest speed is ~1,3MHz when are visible all 25 lines.
Yesterday I created one picture in VDC 480x252 pixel 8x1 cell non-interlaced mode and I create TED version and post here maybe yet this night.
Miro
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Posted By
MMS
on 2020-01-20
16:28:31
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
@Mirkosoft
Thank you for our detailed feedback and the uploaded files.
Well, with proper tools seem the VDC can shine. No question, the VDC details are beyond the one we can reach with TED (this is the cause I choose HIRES FLI instead of MC FLI, despite MC has much more colors)
Those colorful VDC patterns are really nice.
I was not aware that VDC can do it, even after seeing VDC 64K HIRES demo on youtube I was not really aware... It was a little monochromish... So I decided to create VDC Challenge show.
TED can do BEST case 8x2, because the CPU is not fast enough to change both the color map and the luminance map in every raster line. (With a little faster CPU and RAMs it could work, but not on this machine)
It would be great to have a proper drawing tool for these VDC modes.
(BTW VDC 16K is the original, and later with US 128 desktop model C= added 64K RAM, easy to upgrade 16K to 64K, but not beyond, so 128K does not exist AFAIK)
The attribute free color mixing may produce great results. this is what I saw on EGA too (though most of the pictures do not reach on EGA that quality):
(I am thinking about an EGA Challenge slideshow too :-D )
Last remark:
Unfortunately I think your TED picture does not show the best case possible.
Certainly it needs some human interaction to get closer to the original with other tools too.
I think the routine add a little too much noise or dithering to the picture, so it results some random "bad pixels" at not proper places.
(though I know, that adding some some noise may help the quality of conversion, it happen at Larry's IHFLI tool too)
Usually it takes the most time from me to find an optimal setting in IstvanV's FLI converter the dithering level, the color intensity, and all the other fine settings.
Here is a comparison I did in a few minutes. The bottom two are the TED ones.
When I check the eye iris and the balls the VDC is evidently more faithful to the original. The solid colors at the bottom are just great, very failthful to the original.
I think with a little less dithering on the picture area your VDC conversion could be even more impressive.
(BTW my left/right attribute column at the edges are really bad, sorry :-) )
@carrion:
sorry for the lot of OFF
sorry for the big pictures.
Still you FLI rules
The human brain and artistic vein still produces much better result than any picture I could synthetize with any conversion tools.
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Posted By
carrion
on 2020-01-20
09:44:44
 | Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
@Mirkosoft
Thanks for the binaries. I will try your tools later tonight. If I succeed I will upload the results somewhere. If not I will get back here with more questions 
Who know if I figure all this C128 modes and converting out I will try to do some gfx for C128 Something I planned for long time now...
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Posted By
MIRKOSOFT
on 2020-01-19
10:37:51
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
1. VDC has not C64 VIC color palette - it has CGA palette, only dark yellow is replaced/adjusted to orange.
Really can be C64 pictures good, but I think better graphics can create VIC20 even with resolution limited in default modes. VIC-II is really mysterious - why designers removed interlace? why used that very wrong color selection - except greyscale? It is only VIC-II which is missing interlace, even VIC-IIe in C128 has interlace and allows 320x400/160x400 graphics / 37x50 text... and even - offers 11 new colors... Problem of C64 is in attribute clash - color cells 8x8 or 4x8 are big limits, I know that fake interlaced modes it can solve, but why I named it fake: really it has nothing with interlace. Even C128's VIC-IIe has Real Interlace... but that's to C64.
2. TED has 121 colors by default (here it needs to write why designers selected black and white separately when shading black to white offers both in 7 color greyscale, but it is Q only for me, really it is not limit).
Q is to TED HiRes 320 horizontal - I'm not sure about color cells - offers it 8x2?
VDC offers in horizontal up to 480 pixels 8x1 color cells, other modes 8x2 color cells...
Even - look here:
http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/vdc256colors.png
VDC in 256 colors, really 136 (for color duplicates) in 640x512 pixels 8x2 cells interlace.
Here it needs only to say - yes color combinations of 16 color palette vs of 121 color palette... (but of course duplicate colors need to fix count).
In case of VDC I'm confused when you writing about RAM. Designers of Commodore 900 used MOS 8563 chip too, but dedicated there 128K VRAM (don't know how was made addressing) and when was C900 project cancelled MOS 8563 was used in C128 - with limited RAM 64K, even unexpanded 16K. What offers 128K? 1024x800 pixels monochrome graphic mode - but this needs more RAM than 64K, so limit is VRAM - why they did it, really don't understand. But it means that VDC is able to display 1024 pixels horizontal resolution.
Reached was 800H and 800V on C128.
But back:
3. I try the pictures and know these pictures in past I compared it to more computers - this thread is not war between graphics - it is what we can do - no war, in my eyes is TED great chip, Plussy has perfect RAM management - I want to buy one, but of course it will never replace my C128...
I wanted to compare also VIC-I and VIC-II, maybe VIC-IIe and even maybe VIC-III (where is hard to get sources) in this thread.
We can make TED Challenge, but can we include also other Commodore 8-bits?
So, for interested here are tools, I will expand VDC Renderer later when I find time.
http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/vdc_tools.7z
Ok, this weekend I do the conversion.
Here's conversion, but first notes:
1. parrot
http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/parrot.png
I know main goal is to compare single color - TED has 121 single colors and VDC 16 colors, but no matter - here needs to say, only replaced.
2. Amiga picture
I think result is visible - VDC has no problem with colors like TED, but both are not enough to compare with Amiga - there are colors which is not possible to replace - except blue sky (I replaced and each of you can do the similar with with TED picture) - but TED generally failed in toolbar - resolution makes it impossible to see anything, VDC is much more better - in this picture are results so comparable that TED has big disadvantage - resolution.
http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/amiga_ted.png
http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/amiga_vdc.png
Here is diskimage and Amiga picture on TED:
http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/vdc.d64
http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/ted.prg
Miro
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Posted By
MMS
on 2020-01-17
12:06:22
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
OFF here
maybe we need to open a new thread to this, like VDC VS TED (then I will transfer my comments there)
1) Evidently the VDC can create high res pictures. I can say, that it can produce pictures with PC EGA resolution.
Still, the number of colors greatly limits VDC's potentials.
On EGA you can freely choose the 16 visible color from a 64 color palette. and they use it for color mixing with great results.
On VDC they stuck to the C64 palette, out of that 16 color there are 5 shades of grey (black, white and 3 greys).
Don't get me wrong, on C64 there are fantastic looking pictures and games, but not able to reach PC quality just because of the colors.
Certainly the attribute free color mixing on high resolution helps to create new virtual colors, but it is much easier on EGA, than on VDC.
Especially on colorful pictures those 16 colors are just not enough, and it creates some color patterns.
2) On TED the FLI HIRES keeps the 320 pixel horizontal resolution, but produced much more colors thn the original HIRES.
Really good combination, though certainly not reaching VDC resolution.
VDC alone had 64K RAM, as the whole Plus/4 machine
3) Could you try out these too on VDC?
I am curious about the result (in "VDC Challenge" slideshow you can check out the HFLI TED capabilities (it could be even more finetuned with hand)
With an improved image transfer tool you may create better results, and may create the "TED Challenge demo" on C128, haha!)
https://imgur.com/KoT0Rtp
https://imgur.com/20z0Kry
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Posted By
MIRKOSOFT
on 2020-01-16
18:28:54
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Ok, give me a night to upload renderers.
Mostly of them are free published by Torsten Kracke (aka tokra) - in my eyes the best C128 and VIC20 graphician and monochrome + VGA monochrome modes are used by my own renderer - Torsten's are from VDC Mode Mania and VDC VGA Mania. I modified only viewer what is written in Basic 7.0.
I upload archive to my domain and you can download it, but I don't want to have there them long time, so if anybody is interest tell me where to upload it.
Tomorrow I upload them and post reply.
Miro
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Posted By
carrion
on 2020-01-16
07:01:45
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
MIRKOSOFT
How do you convert pics for VDC? What tools do you use? I'd like to try myself.
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Posted By
MIRKOSOFT
on 2020-01-14
20:01:09
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
I created few conversions
1. Commodore 8-bit computers
here's source http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/computers_source.png
VDC verison http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/computers_vdc.png
TED version http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/computers_ted.bmp
archive with diskimage and details http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/computers.7z
2. Plussy computer
source http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/plussy_source.jpg
VDC version http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/plussy_vdc.png
TED version http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/plussy_ted.png
archive http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/plussy.7z
3. Tiger - beautiful animal
source http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/tiger_source.jpg
VDC version http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/tiger_vdc.png
TED version http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/tiger_ted.png
archive http://www.mirkosoft.sk/conversion/tiger.7z
Really like you can see in linked images is visible resolution deficit of Plussy, colors are I think not very different - but each of you can have different opinion and I accept it.
Of source screenshots are different for interlace mode. C128 emulator Z64K has deinterlacing available, but YAPE it has not - so there's possible to see only single frame. It needs to compare on real machine or emulator, of course best is real machine.
BTW: If anyone of you know about any 264 Series emulator with deinterlacing available please let me know.
Miro
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Posted By
dLst
on 2019-12-16
10:02:12
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
I like this artwork! As your other works, this is also a masterpiece. Thank you for keeping alive and making the plus4 history. And it's also true for the plus4 active and follower pals, who do it!
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Posted By
MMS
on 2019-12-15
04:39:02
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
@carrion: thank you for your great efforts keeping +4 gfx capabilities in focus, really really great releases
@MIRKOSOFT
OFF1
Would be great to create a topic "Best Picture conversions" does not have any release yet, and only the selected best, unreleased pics should go here with a unique name... and we just add comments and unofficial votes.
Sure thing, the interlace pictures (like Larry's converter) will do not look THAT good as a screenshot, as they will not show the intermediate colors generated by the interlace method.
OFF2
V364 reborn: there was an Austrian guy started to create the 3D model of the v364, and planned reproduction.
Wanted to create the original mobo with the speech thing and ROM, otherwise he did not feel complete.
He stopped it few month ago (at an unknown stage)
I may initiate a new thread to discuss this topic and ideas and my thoughs.
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Posted By
MIRKOSOFT
on 2019-12-14
15:24:56
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Reason why VDC version of Atari picture is missing colors is that it was converted not from real source. If I could have real source it could be better.
I'm doing comparisons between VDC, TED and VIC-II.
'cause in my hobby have time for graphics too. Comparison where I have source picture it is visible what is better. VIC-II is very poor. If I use FLI it is near impossible to see result and no one C64 emulator uses deinterlacing (flickerfix) except Z64K targetted for C128. But why - VIC-II features not interlace, so FLI is fake interlace and it is not detected as interlace. Really don't understand C64 designers why they removed interlace - VIC-II is only one of VIC family chips missing interlace.
Even VIC-IIe in C128 features interlace, has normal 320x400 and 160x400 Multicolor resolution with available total 27 colors instead of 16 (11 new colors offers interlace). Even VIC-I of VIC20 features interlace and I began with its VFLI mode conversions - it allows higher resolution vertically than C64 and comparable with C64 in horizontal.
When was on this forum published +4 Challenge comparing VDC Mode Mania pictures with TED where was resolution vs colors it was interesting. Published were also new picture sources and I converted them too - results were various.
I own not any computer from TED Series, but my favorite is 364 - paradox is for keyboard instead speech feature, when I will have money I buy one. I know that 364 is rare, but somewhere was published "V364 reborn" - please confirm it if is it true.
It can be great if sometimes I can post picture conversions here - if, can I?
Miro
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Posted By
carrion
on 2019-12-14
06:32:15
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Guys!
Thank You for kind words. I'm really glad you like it.
I don't won't you o get me wrong but this picture is probably fastest done one so far. I decided I go to the SV party so I needed a pic and started this one 2 days before the party. As you can probably see (if you know my other works) that there are parts (clipart's ) from my other previous pics. I leave it up to you to find out which one's are borrowed from other pics
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Posted By
MMS
on 2019-12-13
17:25:38
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
@Miro
OFF
Great conversions. To be honest, the C128 version of the C= logo with the higher resolution looks really good, and the red is also better. But in case of carrion pic, the C128 just lacks the colors. (but this one is a really nice colorful one!  )
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Posted By
bubis
on 2019-12-13
08:27:16
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Stunning pic again! We can't be thankful enough for that Carrion, you are almost the only one who sees the potential in our beloved +4.
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Posted By
Lavina
on 2019-12-10
10:10:49
 | Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Oh wow! Astonishing!
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Posted By
Mad
on 2019-12-10
09:55:58
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Wow! Awesome picture once again!
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2019-12-10
09:01:06
 | Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Nice picture! Love it!
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Posted By
MIRKOSOFT
on 2019-12-10
07:24:48
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Hi!
I'm really C128 programmer and very big fan of TED Series.
In my free time when I have time to convert graphics I'm doing some comparisons between VDC, VIC-I, VIC-II and TED. Picture in this thread is interesting and I did conversion of Atari version to VDC to compare between all three machines - C128, Atari and C16+4. VDC version is in 640x480 pixels 8x2 color cells.
Also - I added conversion of Commodore logo from my wallpapers in VDC and TED versions and for compare in archive is also original.
Look here: http://www.mirkosoft.sk/ted-vdc.7z
TED version is in interlaced FLI 320x464 pixels created by p4fliconv and VDC same as previous.
Miro
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Posted By
MMS
on 2019-12-09
15:58:20
| Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Really great one with a lot of nice details! I really like the cracks on the road. :-)
The two versions perfectly fit to the strenghts of both machines.
Congrats!
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Posted By
George
on 2019-12-09
14:43:31
 | Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Great picture carrion! Congratulations!
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Posted By
SVS
on 2019-12-09
13:29:05
 | Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Nice picture carrion, congrats!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2019-12-09
12:31:33
 | Re: YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
YoomBlazer is another winning bomb dropped by you. Congratulations, that's a fantastic #1 piece of art! MFLI 320x240px, right? This time, you had to change drastically the original Atari to fit the best on Plus/4, the two compared "twins" look different in perspective
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Posted By
carrion
on 2019-12-09
11:10:08
| YoomBlazer - a new pic on Atari 8bit and Commodore plus/4
Hi guys
Once in a while I do this kind of pictures... I did it last weekend again.
Here's a picture I created especially for Atari demoscene party Silly Venture held in Gdańsk/Poland last weekend. It looks like I won the compo with this one.
I wouldn't be myself not creating the C+4 version. So go to my blog and grab it while it's hot!
https://retronavigator.com/post/189573400523/yoomblazerthis-is-a-picture-i-created-for-the
You can also compare screenshot's from both, Atari and C+4 versions there. Enjoy.
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