 Previous Messages |
Posted By
Tcm+4
on 2009-07-29
03:31:13
|  Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Thank you very much, Lacoste. I spread the link in the forum64.
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2009-07-28
16:41:16
 | Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Link:
http://scene.org/dir.php?dir=%2Fdemos%2Fcompilations%2Fwe_are_family_2nd_coming/
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2009-07-26
14:59:41
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Maybe on Tuesday (2009.07.28) You can download again!
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2009-07-24
15:35:52
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Hi,
Sorry, first time I didn't find the DVD.
The upload is in progress.
The upload speed is so slow, so I will take a lot of time of it.
Little patience, I will speak when ready.
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Posted By
Patrick
on 2009-07-23
16:11:31
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
STUF?????/
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2009-07-23
15:57:11
 | Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
yap, spread that fat s*** 
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Posted By
Tcm+4
on 2009-07-23
13:31:30
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
We can upload the dvd to scene.org. i talked to Nicolas there.
Lacoste wrote me yesterday that he will upload it there and give us an info when it's done.
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2009-07-23
09:45:22
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
We should upload it to places like Rapidshare/MegaUpload etc.
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2009-07-23
02:41:41
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
I will fix it soon !
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Posted By
Tcm+4
on 2009-07-22
18:26:17
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Ok, thanks Csio. I repeat to send my email to Laszlo to the new adress.
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Posted By
Csio
on 2009-07-22
16:54:10
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Hi Users!
I am Laco's new administrator
and i have to say a news about him:
His email address changed to this:
rajcsanyi.laszlo@gmail.com
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dont forget to registering this with some spamlinks
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Posted By
Tcm+4
on 2009-07-22
10:29:40
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Thanks for your offer, Chronos, but i have one It's just for the guys out there wanting to download the dvd. Will be great if we have a new download resource.
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2009-07-22
08:50:14
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
damned extra.hu deleted the files.. a fix will coming soon.. i have 2 pieces of this dvd if you want it i'll send it to you!
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Posted By
Tcm+4
on 2009-07-22
03:53:11
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Hi there!
Some guys from forum64.de tried to download the 2nd Coming dvd, but the download links in the article are broken. Is there an alternative download resource?
I wrote Lacoste already an email, the idea is to upload the 2nd coming to scene.org, to make it available for everyone. I've build an iso and splitted RAR-archives of the iso-file. Of course without permission from Lacoste i wouldn't upload it, so i'm waiting for his reply.
Perhabs there exists an alternative download resource. Do you have an idea?
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-08-03
13:33:00
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
DEGAUSS: SEND YOUR MAIL ADDRESS AGAIN !!!!!
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Posted By
nukem
on 2008-08-03
08:52:05
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Me, too!! THX!!!!!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-07-31
13:20:00
 | Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Got'em! Got'em! Hypa-thanks! 
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-07-23
12:52:12
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
hi! the pack arrived today!and freakin' cool...
but i told ya already, don't spend your money for sillinessess like this :D
thx again! the red and blue dvd box rox!
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-07-22
17:02:30
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
DVDs were sent yesterday !
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-07-05
08:04:44
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
DVD Disks are ready !
Hunting for BLUE and RED DVD Box (Tesco) ! (2-3 days)
On 08.07.2008 we will posting the packs !
Legyé' türelemmel !!!
Kincs! Soká érkezik !
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Posted By
Csio
on 2008-07-05
06:44:34
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
má eltelt az 1 week, sőt már zwei week is eltelt, és akko ezt sem kell transzlattáni...
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-06-17
15:32:45
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Hát én ilyen szép papírra szeretném nyomtatni, ami csillog meg minden..
Gyerekek ! Ingatlanost SOHA ne bízzatok meg !!!!
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Posted By
Csio
on 2008-06-17
13:05:27
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Króna, péézt küggyé, ne papirt, nem látod, hogy NAGYOBB házat vesznek! alkuszok...
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-06-17
12:33:56
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
..from the money we can got from the first dvd!
hey laco! kuldok en neked boritot, mennyi kell? 10-20 darabot tudok en is gyartani lézerrel.. ha kell, szójjá!
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-06-17
11:18:02
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
ONE WEEK and I WILL POST THE DVD'S TO THE AUTHORS!
SORRY, SORRY, SORRY, BUT I HAVE NO TIME !!!
We buy a bigger house!
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2008-05-26
12:16:13
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
> Other possibility ?
Have you tried my emulator ? It has very accurate TED emulation, better audio sample rate conversion, can record TV emulation effects (such as those in MC Demo, New FLI, or Larry's extended sideborder parts), and - depending on the output format chosen - resample video as shown above. It can only record in uncompressed format, though, which is a disadvantage. Anyway, it is of course your choice to use whatever you want, it was just a suggestion in case you did not try it yet
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2008-05-23
05:24:08
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
> (Lemme guess: Its the output of your emulator  )
Yes, however it can also record videos without the averaging effect (although without PAL color effects due to using RLE8 format instead of YV12 - maybe YV12 without frame interpolation/averaging would be a useful option ?). The 8 Shades of Black and Crackers Demo 4 videos on YouTube were also resampled with this method to 30 fps.
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2008-05-23
01:37:45
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
@Istvan:
Looks quite cool. Image-Averaging is a good approach for downsampling and i think this would already be a huge improvement. (Lemme guess: Its the output of your emulator )
Ok, i don't want to dwell on this topic too much, but if i remember right, MPEG2 supports some profile that matches 50Hz (that interlaced one, half-images). This is more what i meant: capture in 50Hz and use the correct MPEG2-profile... But as i said: I don't want to dwell on this, the DVD is cool...
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2008-05-22
18:37:36
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Dr. Death: what do you think about this 25 fps resampled video (http://www.sharemation.com/IstvanV/nadp.avi) ? While it does fix the interlaced image, there is probably too much motion blur due to averaging frames, and fast scrolltexts can be difficult to read.
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2008-05-22
17:38:41
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
@Laco:
I have to admit that i'm not too familiar with all this video-stuff, but if you like i can at least take a look how to get better results. the question is: even if i find a way, would it be much work for you to exchange the videos and "remaster" the dvd again?
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-22
17:10:37
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
> "By the way, why was YAPE chosen as the emulator to create the videos with ?"
Other possibility ?
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-22
17:08:13
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Yes Ingo, You are right !
The trouble is: I don't know too much about the sampling/resampling !
I do not notice it ! 
But maybe 5 years later on the "We Are Family - The End of an Era" DVD
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2008-05-22
16:50:20
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
@Lacoste: Kudos for all the good work you've done. I guess you also like some criticism, so here we go:
the good:
+ menus are slick and well designed (its good you picked csabos tune)
+ good idea to pick the bonus material (especially the photo-gallery)
+ the choice of demos feels absolutely right
+ subtitles work great and are plenty of fun to read (especially DCD's)
theres only one main bad-point:
ok, its from emulator but i think during the downsampling of the videos to 25Hz something went heavily wrong. the effect can easily be seen in "Notizen..." and "Zenith...": The interlace-picture doesn't appear to be interlaced, 50Hz-Effects like the Zoomer,Twister,Fence and the ~16FPS Effects like the Floormapper look "sedated". I don't know how much work that would be, but a better resampling would be great. (As far as i know, DVD is capable of 50Hz-PAL-imagery)
nonetheless: This is a cool major release!
Regards
Ingo
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-05-21
14:48:38
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
i'm on the dvd now, torturing in my dvd player everything is fine, my first thoughts:
(in random order)
1, thalassa is wonderful.. italian language is wonderful too.. my girlfriend likes it so much. she said: "its better than english i want to learn that.."
2, deutsch is not as nice, but the demos what presented by d.gauss is a true classics!
3, ati's voice somewhat scary
4,i noticed the "techy" aspect in the true coders commentary.. i didnt get half of that! but very entertraining especially when dcd said yeaa, it was 16.xxx dots and later i optimized it and decreased it to.. find it for yourself :D
5, and again big respect to laco who made the dvd (i know the whole fu**in' dvd format is a pain in the ass, mastering with american/asian shitwares consuming a lot of time..)
6, a little sidenote: the colorbars on the top of the dvd cover.. its in baad quality! i printed the cover with a color laser printer and the cover is high quality itself but the colorbars on the top is ugly!
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-05-21
12:41:59
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
yess, i noticed! but why? only a few f*ck and we get a 18 sign ??
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-21
11:24:39
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
ATI sent comments via MobilPhone !
DCD, CSABO, BUBIS, LARRY only in text mode ! But at least, there are subtitles !!
The covers is on the way, so one or two week and I send the DVDs !
If you ask me to do not to send, I don't care, I will sending ...
I am proud my very good english
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2008-05-21
11:20:19
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
By the way, why was YAPE chosen as the emulator to create the videos with ?
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-21
11:06:02
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Did You notice the adult sign (18) to Adventures in Mono ?
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-21
11:04:24
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Lacoste, let's press a number key while my CD4 part is running what the...
I'm still enjoying the DVD. In several CD4 and 8SoB commentaries it's clear I "pestered" ppl (Ati), I was chewing ears (Murphy) and all the rest. Terrible! There were no DCD's commentary otherwise I expected "I would have 2 children but Luca asked me for a third one, then I had to decide it with my wife and..."! 
I'm so sorry for this, probably we would be able to achieve both coopdemos even with no annoying bust by me. No, not only "probably": for sure we would!
It's a luck to recall that after the little flame here, this danger is gone once forever. Bright future by now, go go go +4 scene!
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-05-21
06:57:32
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
i've just checked the dvd, everything is fine! Big props to everybody especially to Laco who made the whole stuff together!
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-05-21
04:17:21
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
laco! did you hear about dvd rewritables? :D ..and sometimes backup precious data? :D
(most of the users never backup his stuff, only the xxx and after a hdd crash cryin for the summer photos and for the mp3 collection... :D )
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-21
03:18:51
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Csabo I haven't heard your voice in the dvd, did you enter comments/subs only?
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2008-05-20
19:12:42
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Lacoste wrote this (both Hungarian and English) in an email, on which a ton of people (but apparently not everyone) was copied:
"Hi,
Végre bejelenthetem, hogy készen lett. Sajnos a hard-disc kétszer tönkrement és mivel rengeteg időt és munkát kellett beleölnöm, sajnos nem volt türelmem eredeti gépen megcsinálni újra. Szóval Yape volt segítségemre. Tudom, ez nagyon nem jó így, de majd egyszer elmondom és akkor megértitek. Nagyon sajnálom. [...]
----
Hi,
I announce that it is finally ready. The hard-disc got ruined two times and since it needed too much time and effort, I did not have the patience to do on an original machine again unfortunately. Yape helped me. I know this isn't so good, but I will tell you once and you understand it then. I am so sorry. [...]"
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Posted By
IstvanV
on 2008-05-20
18:18:07
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
That is interesting. Wasn't this supposed to be made on a real machine ? Of course, if it was created with the AVI recording feature in YAPE, then the Larry's part in Cracker's Demo would have wrong colors.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-20
18:08:15
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
It worked!
My 7zip should have been too old maybe. Anyway, now it works and looks cool from the first watchin'!
Congrats Lacoste!!
Apropo, which YAPE version did you use? With which settings? I spotted out the famous missing water spits for the first row of bubbles in Thalassa's mermaid part, that's like a fingerprint for YAPE! :-)
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-20
15:57:48
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Yes, I'd try to use a newer version compared to my 7zip, lemme try and I'll tell ya.
I'm a bit slow, because we're testing XeO3...
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-20
10:30:10
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Dunno, I checked it and everything was ok, then I unpacked the whole stuff and I had several errors and incomplete files...
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-20
08:33:34
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
SceneCON 2008: We are the official sponsor among others ! See our banner !
http://www.scenecon.hu/
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-20
08:31:26
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Hi!
Luca: I downloaded it, and checked it and it worked... No VOB error ! Everything went OK.
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Posted By
Lavina
on 2008-05-20
03:55:32
 | Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
is 15mbit/15mbit (synchronous) considered a relatively fast connection? This is my home service, I can help with big up/downloads if necessary.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-19
18:18:15
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Heh, no, unfortunately I deleted everything
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-19
17:26:49
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Árok #10: We are the official sponsor among others ! See our banner !
http://arok.intro.hu/
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-19
17:21:30
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Could you write me, which VOB file damaged ?
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-19
16:44:34
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Ok, Thanks Luca I will check it !
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-05-19
16:16:46
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
tomorrow i will download the whole package! (we have a relative fast net at the office) and i will report it!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-19
16:02:15
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Ok, checked again, same error. It appears to be bugged (if somebody cares to know).
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-19
15:14:52
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
After the long answer to the Traffic Jam 5 article which seemed to be clearly snubbed, I hoped someone would ensure me about the integrity of the 7z archive...
Who's a witness of a succeful downloading and rebuilding?
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-05-19
14:57:15
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
http://scene.hu/news.php
our little scene on the frontpage
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-19
14:39:00
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
To be very sure of what's happened, I'm downloading again all the single slices, once at a time, let's see...
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-19
12:48:57
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Nnnnnooooooo!! 8 damaged VOB files!! 
Did somebody just check the whole procedure's integrity?
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-19
02:21:27
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Ok, it is downloadable now !!
Please check the 'NEWS' section !
We will repairing the download section on FEATURES menu soon.
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Posted By
Csio
on 2008-05-17
15:39:05
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Láko, ezért extra.hu, mert ez benne az extra!
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-17
08:31:00
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Kedves László!
Ebben az esetben, sajnos rendszerünk illegális tartalmakat szűrő rendszerünk hibázott.
A már eltávolított anyagokat nem áll módunkban visszaállítani.
Kérjük a jövőben jelezze oldalán, ha saját készítésű fájlokat tölt fel.
Az okozott kellemetlenségekért ellnézést kérünk.
Üdvözlettel,
Extra Support Team
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-17
07:02:21
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Yes, scene.org should be the best solution, indeed
maybe extra.hu would need copyrights permissions from all the repsective rights owners, would be unaffordable
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-17
06:45:05
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Hihetetlen:
Kedves Felhasználónk!
Acw_download1 tárhelyét azért blokkoltuk, mert szerzői jogvédelem alatt álló anyagokat találtunk webtárhelyén. Ezzel szabályzatunk 2-es pontját sértette meg.
A jogvédelem alatt álló anyagokat töröltük, a blokkolást pedig feloldottuk.
Üdvözlettel:
Extra Support Team
A saját készítésű cuccomat nem engedik feltölteni !
Küldök egy mail-t a scene.org üzemeltetőinek és akkor valószínű néhány nap és elérhető is lesz.
----
Dear kind user!
Acw_download1 homepage blocked, because we hit substances being at a standstill under copyright on your web storage. We deleted the substances being at a standstill under the legal defence, we resolved the blocking though.
With a greeting:
Extra Support Team
My self-produced stuff is not allowed to upload !
I send mail to scene.org, and maybe i will be downloadable soon.....
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-17
01:41:21
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
I don't know why, but the ACW site don't work today. Maybe the EXTRA.HU has a bug! I hope so!
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2008-05-16
17:14:54
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Someone know a good lawyer? Anyone?!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-16
17:12:31
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Straight and sharp like a shot arrow, he divides the crowd with his own male and determined step! Hahaha, ok now you all must have this DVD!
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2008-05-16
15:04:02
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Ok, buddies... before you are going to laugh out loud, please remind: I stayed awake for more than 24 hours, travelled about 1400km in one day, drank way too much, won the compo and thus saved the scene. Maybe even Superman or John Wayne would look pretty much wasted after all this...
Oh dear, I hope its all blurry images.
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-16
14:27:55
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
The Second Coming!
Hahaha!
SceneCON Awards Ceremony included! The best Ingo I've seen ever! Finally!
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2008-05-14
14:59:50
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
yay!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-05-14
10:50:39
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-14
07:29:06
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Max a week !
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-05-05
01:22:26
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Bubis comments arrived !!
I am ready with the project soon !
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Posted By
bubis
on 2008-05-04
17:49:11
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Managed to write those scripts finally.
Apologies for the big big delay!
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Posted By
Csio
on 2008-04-27
07:23:17
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
jajaja
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-04-26
13:31:03
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Ah oh I didn't notice that...
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-04-26
09:36:07
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
congrats luca! yours was the -- 100th---!!! comment...
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-04-26
07:15:23
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-04-26
02:19:35
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
i was talked with dcd yesterday and he told me he is struggling with the rest..
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-04-26
01:50:11
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
DCD Monopsy2 comments arrived!
DVD : 95% completed
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-04-17
16:14:31
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
What a difficult parturition, phew!
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-04-17
15:08:19
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Only some DCD comments and BUBIS comments missing !
Please HURRY UP !
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Posted By
Csio
on 2008-04-09
12:33:22
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
whattasurprise!
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-04-09
08:42:32
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Yay! 
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-04-09
08:03:24
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
DCD' 8SOB comment arrived !
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-04-03
08:00:48
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
He sent me a mail, so he is in and 2 or 3 nights and sending it !
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-04-03
02:12:26
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
i talk dcd several times a week. can i ask, what the fck is going on?
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-04-03
01:30:37
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Csabo's comments arrived.
Bubis's comments will arrive sunday ! (maybe, he promised)
DCD: no news yet !
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Posted By
Luca
on 2008-04-02
14:33:30
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Yeah, and multiple! Lavina, you, Csio, Lacoste, Gaia...what the hell, I wanna be the babies messiah too!
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-04-02
13:10:22
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
nope, baby boomin' in progress :D
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2008-04-02
05:28:18
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Any news on this one?
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Posted By
Csio
on 2008-03-22
17:24:52
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Fogadni mernék elég sokmindenben, hogy dcd lesz az uccsó!!!! ))
Bocs, DCS, de muszály volt...
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2008-03-22
17:20:26
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Larry's comments arrived !!!!!
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Posted By
Chronos
on 2008-03-21
16:57:10
| Re: We Are Family - The Second Coming !
csabo irt ma nekem ugyhogy teljesen fel van ebredve
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Posted By
Lacoste
on 2007-07-18
04:29:51
| We Are Family - The Second Coming !
Hi,
What do you think about that we would like to release a 2nd DVD, with the following:
Zenith of Puberty / TEK
Monopsy 2 / Wilds
Notizen aus der Provinz / TEK
Shade / (Absence and Wilds?)
Crackers Demo 4
8 Shades of Black
Adventures in Mono / Absence
Thalassa / Fire
Oldschool / Assanssin
and some prodz from LimiTED compo
I think a voice commentary from the author (with his own language) would be nice
and the subtitles in english (only).
And of course in a real C+4 ! AND FOR FREE and DOWNLOADABLE of course !
What do you think ?
Some other prodz or ideas ?
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