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| | Previous Messages | Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-08-15
03:23:26
|  Re: LittleSixteen V4
That is certainly a shame  . I have been using FedEx IOSS for my latest orders. It is much faster and more reliable. It costs more, sure, but when you have a large order to start with, 10-15€ won't make things much worse. It's always worked well so far.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-08-14
13:19:27
 | Re: LittleSixteen V4
@Sukkopera: yepp, I see your point.
PS: BTW my last order from PCBWay never arrived. the Hungarian Post did not inform me about the arrival, when I tried to track it, they had no clue at all, then I got a warning it will be returned, because I did not pick it up (funny, because they did not inform me to pay the taxes and the mandatory VAT)
In fact -according to PCBWay- it was never returned to China. Probably the package was stolen here at the center.
Several assembled 1581 replica PCBs.
So probably (with THAT level of tracking) I will not order more things directly from PCBWay. Not their fault, but the looong and complex process makes it impossible to track, and certianly DHL is too expensive.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-08-14
09:49:19
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Don't get me wrong: we surely can daydream a lot, but to give this project at least some practical usefulness, targeting some case that can be readily bought is a necessary choice, and the C64C case is just perfect for the purpose. Now you can also get the Breadbin, so you even have some choice. A custom case would surely be fancy, but until someone REALLY starts to work on it, it's just that: daydreaming.
On the other hand, the layout of the cursor keys is one thing that I can actually improve. I've been thinking about that a lot already, but it will only happen once I have completed the first version of the keyboard (which is actually already done, but it will only be released after L16 V4).
Speaking of L16 V4, there is just one pending issue before it can be released. Hopefully I will work on it in the weekend. I know I'm being slow but I like to work a bit on this and a bit on that, and no one seems too concerned anyway  .
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-08-14
02:43:52
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Yepp, good idea.
On the other hand, you know why those 128D keyboards are so expensive? because a lot failed due to it's cable.
($C 200-500 just the keyboard, I just saw one for 330€ fix price)
Maybe it would be nice to have a standard 25-pin centronics connector at both ends, and a standard P25 cable (you can choose the lenght) would do the job? You can even fix it with screws. If the cable is long enough it could be connected at the back too... It would be easy and cheap to swap in case... The more standard solution we have the higher chance the design will survive the next 3-4 decades :-D
and there are elbow houses to not protrude the connector so ugly from the keyboard
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Posted By
Spektro
on 2024-08-13
23:19:27
 | Re: LittleSixteen V4
@SukkoPera
Thanks! I'm good at starting new projects but bad at finishing them That GUI may well be impossible to implement.
@MMS
How about a similar connector as the C128 D has: a 25 pin Sub-D connector?
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-08-13
12:45:06
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
@siz: thanks for feedback. well, I think it is not so off. We can agree it is a fantastic project, contains a lot of things we just dreamed as the kids of the 264 series (built in SID, 256KB RAM., ATARI style joystick connector, better quality video output).
And we know, how crowded the Plus/4 housing is, not possible to do upgrade within that nice housing. In fact, it would be great to fit into a newly designed wider 364 housing, same look, more space
So it is a valid question, in which form the LittleSixteen project could fulfill the need to become the XXI.century's 264 product? Full backwards compatibility is there (not like in Spectrum +2, +3, ATARI 130XE, etc), do we want a desktop housing with built-in "HDD" (SD drive) with external keyboard? Or again a compact home computer?
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Posted By
siz
on 2024-08-13
04:20:42
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Nah. This is now way off topic here but I need normal layout of cursor keys. C16 is crap but C64 is worse.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-08-12
16:25:39
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
@siz C64c? I think it is sleek and modern looking, almost the same keyboard layout as C16.
Too bad the inner part was not improved eg. at least with a better BASIC and monitor prg.
BASIC3.5 is backwards compatible, so any POKE the C64 guys like so much still works.
The other one is too sleek looking :-)
@Spektro: what kind of connector you prefer for the keyboard? Mini DIN? AGAIN? :-D (I think it was used for several other computers, like Apple Localport and Sun Microsystems too)
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Posted By
siz
on 2024-08-12
12:12:18
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
@SukkoPera: these sound very good. I'm very interested. As soon as You build it for the plus/4 case as I hate the breadbins. Sorry.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-08-12
11:17:04
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
I like your interface, @Spektro! Not sure it will ever come to life but it surely looks polished and classy .
With the WiC+4 wireless interface I'm working on, I am already achieving 18 kB/s and that could probably be made even faster if a real programmer joined my effort. So we could literally stream the OS from the network!
I don't really understand why not even the new releases are using the 1581 format. Lykia could fit a single disk rather than 4, but still no official D81 version exists. These days a 1581 can be self-built for not very much, even with a Gotek drive emulator, which means you get the best of both worlds: disk images and full compatibility.
I am happy to announce that the "double ROMbanks" feature I threw in at the last minute is working correctly, so @TLC should be happy! I even have a solution for the double PAL/NTSC clock...
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Posted By
Spektro
on 2024-08-11
17:39:29
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Yes, it's using the hi-res mode. Limited RAM is definitely a problem and a fast (SD) disk is a must to pull that GUI off. Those screenshots are mockups, by the way.
I have a working mouse pointer drawing routine but it needs to be rewritten and combined to the text printing system.
The idea is that you can browse disk content, create folders, copy and delete files, and execute programs with a mouse. When you execute a program, GUI will be overwritten (removed from the memory). So, basically it's a fancy-looking file manager
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-08-11
15:03:37
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
@Sukkopera
Well I did not thought, that the 1581 PCB need to be integarted into LittleSixteen, just the it could be placed within the same housing together with the LittleSixteen and wired internally with eg. alligator clips. (the 3.5" drive definitely takes less space than an 1541 or 1541/II). The listed 3D housing seems to have an internal layer to hold the (SD) drive, can be scaled up.
@siz: yeah, at a certain level I agree with you, as it would increases the already existing incompatibilities (1541 VS 1551), on the other hand if you do not use a fastloader, or just extend the use of Jiffy on our platform, 1581 is a real Commodore standard drive. Just copiing the files and using standard Kernal routines (not a trackloader) means no special task or modification to be done.
On C64 (especially when you had games took 4-5 full floppy discs) it was a real need, and frankly speaking, when our demos and some converted games took a 2-sided D64, I have the feeling, that more content could have been created with a 880KB D81 disc format.
@Spektro: I really like the color scheme and the clean design you put here. I especially like the name and the cute logo 
Frankly speaking, it looks more professional than the Amiga Workbench 1.3 and ATARI ST GEM combined
But looking in details it looks like a hires GUI, like GEOS. Well, unfortunately 64KB is not really great for hires content, and the 1541 speed and capacity is far from satisfactory. Going to 1551 helps on a speed a little. Handling of all those bitmaps takes a lot of CPU power and memory. I do remember on C64 GEOS with two 1541/II floppy drives it became somehow acceptable, and still a lot of floppy swapping and waiting happened when I edited a WYSWYG document.
Though the recently released tcbm2sd from ytm with 3KB/10KB per sec loading speed and the 256KB Hannes RAM could make this a great deal for such a GUI.
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Posted By
Spektro
on 2024-08-11
09:39:27
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
I may be able to help with LittleSixteen's software. I have this silly idea of a graphical user interface:
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-08-11
06:34:24
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
I strongly doubt that a 1581 drive can be embedded on the mainboard, due to the amount of components required:
As you see, the 1581 board is basically half the size of the whole L16 board! Maybe once we go SMD, but I'm not fully convinced. It ain't going to happen anytime soon anyway, there will be a V5 first, which will still be fully THT.
But well, if we redesign the whole thing for SMD, we can just as well redesign it for a new case, if someone makes one. But again, I can't make everything myself. Come on people, jump on the wagon!
Oh BTW, if anyone wants a "normal" new breadbin case for their next L16 build, you still have a few hours!
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Posted By
siz
on 2024-08-11
04:36:51
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
@MMS: yeah, 1581 is nice. But how many releases support it? These "exotic" storage options are interesting but as they were rare back in the time (or haven't even exist) virtually none of them are supported. Best thing to use is a 1541 or a cycle exact emulator for it (like Pi1541)
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-08-10
17:11:53
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
This looks a super cool case, certainly in black
BTW the 1581 compatible built-is floppy would be great too then the 1581 replica would not need an extra case.
The 880KB space and Jiffy speed of 1581 is just something we deserve...
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-08-08
17:48:22
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
That is definitely feasible, just design the missing bits!
(I suck at CAD, it's already a miracle I managed to design that keyboard bracket...)
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Posted By
Spektro
on 2024-08-08
06:57:20
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
It would be really cool if there were a separate keyboard and a black Commodore 128D/Amiga 1000 style case for the LittleSixteen, where you could install a Mini ITX power supply.
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Posted By
RobertB
on 2024-03-06
05:14:53
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Heh, I couldn't wait for LittleSixteen V4, so I bought V3 (five boards which is the minimum order from PCBWay).
The mechanical keyboard would be great!
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan
April 13-14 Commodore Los Angeles Super Show 2024 - http://www.portcommodore.com/class
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2024-03-05
09:31:31
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Yep, this was ENIG. You are supposed to do the soldering only once, so the only place where it really matters is the edge connectors IMHO. Anyway the board will be on PCBWay and all the design files will be available under CC-BY-NC-SA as usual, so everyone will be able to have it manufactured their favourite way .
I don't recommend buying this assembled for a number of reasons: first, it will be superexpensive, as it's not SMD. Second, if you do the build yourself and it doesn't work, you probably know where to look, you can check which components you bought, etc. Third: I think that nowadays everyone who wants to play with retro stuff MUST have a decent iron and good soldering skills, as this enables them to build A LOT of exciting stuff at a near-zero cost and to carry out repairs and maintenance (which become more and more necessary as time goes by). It doesn't take very much to be honest, and doing such a board is a lot of practice  .
I still have some old TVs but there are HDMI upscalers around that do a good job without significant lag. The OSSC is supposedly one of them, but I have never tried it personally.
UPDATE 05/03/2024
Assembly and testing of V4 has finally started:
Facebook post with more pictures
Basic functionality is ok, Hannes RAM is working, SID works too but needs some tweaks. Joystick swapper does its job. Video quality is even better than before.
Userport and a bunch of other things still need to be tested. I will hopefully have news on that soon.
And well, I don't think I've mentioned that here but I'm also working on a mechanical keyboard, and this project is also close to completion:
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-10-09
16:17:07
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Wow this PCB looks super cool.
Based on the look it seems to have ENIG finishing, I suppose hard gold would have been too expensive...
(the OSP would look more copper like, the HALS or the immersion tin would be silver colored)
The good news is that is will be resolderable several times without impact on the surface quality and wetting properties
We can't be enough thankful for the better picture quality and all the time spent on the investigations. Too bad, nowadays very few TVs have the proper analogue inputs, not to mention the side AV inputs. Shame! We need to buy AV-->HDMI converters --> Lag.
In case it will be a PCBWay Project, we may order it populated and assembled, except the special ones, like ROMs, CPU, SID. (BTW ROMs would be great to have modern EPROMs with lower power consumption).
We may cannibalize few C64 housing then, no life will be spared (very, very satisfying LOL)
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Posted By
Commodore_Kevin
on 2023-10-09
15:18:07
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Waiting is always the hardest part. That's one nice looking PCB, hoping it works
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-10-08
09:07:35
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Not much to say yet. I have got the prototype boards made and shipped to project collaborator Edoardo in Japan. He has bought all the components but hasn't had time to assemble them yet and probably won't for some more time.
I am just as impatient as you to see if this thing works or not, but I'm afraid we must wait another bit!
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Posted By
Commodore_Kevin
on 2023-10-07
20:38:13
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Curiosity is getting the better of me, and I was wondering if there were any updates, because I'm actually interested in buying a board
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Posted By
MIK
on 2023-08-19
06:42:31
 | Re: LittleSixteen V4
Very cool, nice to see the Plus/4 gets a front row seat.
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Posted By
GeTE
on 2023-08-19
05:51:22
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
According to the question "Is there anybody interested in a new 264 board?", I have a picture to answer. In the latest episode two employees from PCBWay made a roomtour at Perifractics studio (and no, it wasn't me who inserted the hint to the plus/4 there!).
https://youtu.be/Y1gtozwWExc?si=_rAVPKNfKviDL3md
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Posted By
Commodore_Kevin
on 2023-08-16
10:18:56
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
This is an extremely cool project your working on. I really appreciate the use of C64 style DIN connector for power, cassette, as well as normal DB9 ports for the joysticks. the addition of the User Port, SID, and more RAM are cool. I'd be lying to say that I wasn't interesting in getting a board.
Here's to hoping the new boards work, and much success to your project.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-08-10
10:54:51
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Yes, I agree. Your Mega65 label (bottom one) is really good IMHO: simple and "as it should have been".
LOL about AC! I don't think it was him who made the artwork for 101 though, it looks too simplistic to me!
Ooooh, that is not a connector, it's just the legs of the voltage regulator for the SID protruding from the bottom! I couldn't find a 3D model of that with shorter legs but I didn't want to let it float too much either. Just ignore them!
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Posted By
GeTE
on 2023-08-10
10:49:57
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
I agree with you that, if there was an original decal, we should recreate that as good as possible. But if there was no original one, I try to take a look how the design on machines, that came out the same time was like and try to implement that. Unfortunately there never was a decal for the C65 or DX64. According your board, I am afraid someone here has to ask Anton Corbijn to write the Little-15-lettering some time.
About the connectors on the bottom side, I was talking about these:
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-08-10
10:13:25
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
TBH my view about decals is pretty simple: if we're talking about an original machine, use the original one, period  . But the L16 is of course something "new" so we're free to experiment with this one. And yes, you got it right about my inspiration for the name, though I don't think this should be reflected in the logo. The style from 101 was so plain and boring!
Not sure what connector on the bottom you are talking about, there should be none! 
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Posted By
GeTE
on 2023-08-10
10:03:31
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
I really like the work of BadgeMan and without his cuttings my own prints would be terrible. He has an eye for the right colours and dimensions and if you have an idea he finishes it in the right direction. But that does not prevent him from sometimes missing the point.
Par example there is his decal for the Commodore 65 that uses the wrong lettering for the time that machine would had came to life (some time after 1987) and should look more like the decal the PC10-III had (https://retro8bitshop.com/product/oroginal-lookalike-c65-badge/):
I myself dislike the MEGA65-decal (when it has no black housing) and therefore I designed the new one together with one the original C65 should have had. Better, isn't it?
There are so much decal-ideas in my head to realize and now I am on the one for the controller from AutumnHippo and I am slow (creating, leaving, correcting, waiting, finishing, restart ...) doing that. Perhaps the next thing should be a sample of only outlines for ideas to be cutted from the BadgeMan to see if they really fit before finishing them. In between and besides the retro stuff I need one for my (anthrazit) bicycle new from last year with a rose and some kind if "bicyculator" lettering.
I know your Little 16 refers to Little 15 from Depeche Mode and the inspiration for the trademark should come from there, but for now I have no good idea ...
PS: One question I have left, what is the pin connector on the bottom side of your board for and how should that be used there?
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-08-10
09:07:12
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
I think the designer of the badges I posted is BadgeMan, too. He mentioned the orange ones were a custom order.
None of those seems to be available on the website though :/.
BTW, I am aware that the current L16 logo is ugly and looks like it was drawn by a 4-year-old, I am really unable to do any graphics stuff. If anybody wants to have a go at designing a new one, feel free.
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Posted By
GeTE
on 2023-08-10
07:38:11
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Well, the C16 prototype has been made for a modified C64-breadbin-housing and therefore I think it would be the full circle when it's successor comes back in the C64C-housing as a Kind auf C16-II/C16C. Because sometimes you need a C64 to drive your plus/4 needs, mine looks according to it (thanks for the molds and Tommes and Wiesel to bring them to germany and measure out good colours).
But for a 256k-baord that has everything we ever dreamed of, in my opinion these decals are to much (and orange? Or should that be a print on gold foil?). I would prefer something more like the decals BadgeMan makes for 256k equipped C16: https://retro8bitshop.com/product/commodore16-256k-badge/
Together we have something equal to the combination of the C64-case and C64-Reloaded-MK-II from iComp but for the 264 series. Now it's time for something equal to Gideons C64 Ultimate (or are board in between these both)
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Posted By
MIK
on 2023-08-07
11:18:49
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
If only you had a Megadrive back then as that one was a good partner to go along side home computers, it even had a Golden Axe 2 which was very much like a part 2 of the 1st game, can always emulate one now days.
It's been a while but loved the title screen music on C64 Golden Axe, it captured the arcade sound style perfectly, but best played on a 64C SID. At the time I got it on C64 I didn't believe such a game was possible and was amazed it was a fairly decent effort!
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-08-08
02:52:26
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
@MIK It also happened to me, but with the arcade machines LOL. Because I am not a great gamer, I spent a fortune playing Golden Axe, and never had enough money to buy one
I did it because my 64k C16 could not provide me this experience. But instead of changing platform, i was fufilled my demand in this way, while at home I focused on the C16s strenghts: color, gfx anx BASIC
Anyhow the Amiga port of Golden Axe at least was not terrible and I somehow enjoyed the C64 version too. I knew that this game cannot be ported to +4, and I accepted this. We are more than lucky that those fantastic games were ported to our beloved platform from C64 and Spectrum. Respect to those fantastic coders!
BTW with HW different extentions, cartridges the C64 surpassed it's original limitations. With more RAM, or the IEEE interface or with the external Z80 or other CPU extensions the C64 could became a workhorse, paired with eg. GEOS. We had much less hw developments, but with these new HW extentions/improvements we can se how our machine could perform too.
I own a C64 Pagefox module that provides 64kb ROM and 32KB RAM for DTP editing, and all this without long loading times. Eddifox (although it is very hard to get any info on it nowadays, it was a fantastic hires drawing program made for this module and could do unbelievable thingx like 3d transformation of hires gfx.
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Posted By
MIK
on 2023-08-06
14:08:04
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Cool. I like the darker one.
Looks better without the "Personal Computer", maybe a serial sticker on the underside of the case would be better for naming the machine in full.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-08-06
09:14:26
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Here you go .
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Posted By
MIK
on 2023-08-06
08:13:33
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Thanks SukkoPera, I looked but as I don't do facebook I was shown spam instead, please Login and accept all cookies.
I do like that badge on the C16 style C64, clean and tidy. I don't think the rainbow one works as well as I'm too used to seeing it above the keyboard.
@MMS As a gamer and in my opinion... C64 is a games console with a keyboard, and not much else to say ha! I never paid any interest in C64 in the early days, until I see Ghost'n Goblins running on one in a shop. I was blown away by the music and until that point the C64 was treated mostly as a glorified Vic20 lol. Thanks to the software company Elite I was sold but waited till around 1988 to get one, once the C16/Plus4 commercial games started to dry up. Funny enough it was sound that sold me to get an Amiga, some Bomb the Bass demo, again in a shop that you could pay per hour to use the computers.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-08-05
17:22:20
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
@JamesC: I think you would have a hard time trying to fit a Plus4 keyboard inside a C64 case. It would be great if someone modified the Mechboard64 matrix to match the C16 matrix though. Anyone?
@MIK: Someone even started making badges for it: https://m.facebook.com/groups/commodore16/permalink/10160410175499481/
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Posted By
MIK
on 2023-08-05
16:29:34
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
That grey C64 in the style of a C16 looks friggin awesome!!!
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2023-08-05
12:20:24
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
tbh, if I were buying (or building) this, I'd want the Plus/4 or V364 keyboard. I've never cared for the 64 and 16 style keyboard.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-08-05
11:54:46
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
If you read the blog article I linked above, that was actually my same suggestion . I bought that one and the transparent one a loooong time ago just for the day this project will be complete (Will it ever?).
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-08-05
11:33:39
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
BTW, if we are already the C64 fanboys (I am also not) why we do not consider using C64C housing in full black? (haha, blasphemy :-) )
Frankly speaking, after +4, A600 and A1200 this is my favourite housing.
It looks sleek, and in black: cool. CPU and TED ar under the keyboard
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Posted By
TLC
on 2023-08-05
08:59:32
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
If a game/software is PAL/NTSC compatible, it is preferable to use it in NTSC mode ...
foot note: historically, the majority of the 264 series software "industry" happened to be based in the U.K. / Europe in general, so, most stuff is primarily PAL in practice (might run in NTSC, but the primary platform, primary testing etc., has been happening on PAL). And technically, compared to PAL, NTSC mode imposes quite a large performance penalty here. Ideally, code has to produce 60 frames per second in NTSC (vs. 50 in PAL) to keep in sync with screen refresh. Another drawback, as you said, compared to PAL, the NTSC screen has less (50 less) lines per frame than PAL, all of those missing from the upper and lower borders. This shifts the proportion of overall number of border vs. screen area lines - and adds some more performance penalty as a result, since, as we know, the CPU mostly runs at "double clock" on the borders, but not in the screen area. So, overall, whilst code has to produce more frames per second in NTSC, at the same time, it has less number of CPU cycles (less available raw CPU power) to do that. CPU intensive code that just manages to keep up with 50Hz frames in PAL, is unlikely to manage running in an every-frame schema in NTSC - which means it'd run less smoothly in NTSC. So in practice it's a bit of YMMV.
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Posted By
MCes
on 2023-08-04
10:52:36
 | Re: LittleSixteen V4
If a game/software is PAL/NTSC compatible, it is preferable to use it in NTSC mode because the PAL system is more defined and the active area on the screen is consequently smaller,
while the NTSC system fills more screen area ( less non active area ).
A couple of solutions:
(Xtal passive oscillators)
(integrated active oscillators)
If you want to use the old oscillator circuit you can switch between the two crystals by remoting the action using a dual diode RF switch
https://www.digikey.be/nl/articles/how-and-why-to-use-pin-diodes-for-rf-switching
@sukkopera let me know when you will be interested in multistandard capability... ;-)
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Posted By
MIK
on 2023-08-04
06:00:52
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Thanks.
RGB that early - was worth the wait I'm sure. I didn't get a CBM RGB monitor until 1991, I was still on RF until then.
Best thing about computers that can use any cassette recorder, you can have your best stuff backed up and load from a Sony Mini Disc player, or even an MP3 device. So cool.
Cheers!
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-08-04
03:24:07
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
No problem .
The MSX is a very nice machine. Actually it's even nicer because it's actually an architecture and many machines exist that follow it. My machine was a Toshiba HX-22, which had RGB output (even though I had never seen a TV with RGB inputs at the time, even SCART was not yet that common!), an RS-232 port and a built-in Word Processor, probably better than the 3-plus-1 stuff. Another clever idea was that you could connect any tape recorder, you didn't need a specific Datassette .
It was mostly on par with the C64 feature- and performance-wise, I think, except in sound, where the SID obviously goes unparallalled (MSX used the already-aging AY-3-8910). Too bad it was very hard to find software for it, at least in Italy. But oh well, I guess that pushed me to focus on programming rather than playing games .
But I guess we're OT here!
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Posted By
MIK
on 2023-08-03
20:42:11
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Wow my bad, sorry. Yeah the lack of colors on a C64 is really noticeable if you have not used one for a while.
I don't know anything about the MSX, the only model I recall seeing was a Toshiba with the blue arrow keys. I might have to investigate the MSX one afternoon, check out some game videos.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-08-03
17:37:49
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
@Spektro: TBH I have no idea. Unfortunately all my little knowledge of electronics is in the digital domain. But maybe @TLC can help?
@MIK: I'm not joking, I'm really NOT a fan of the C64. Sure, I do not hate it either, but I have a deeeeep distaste for its color palette. As soon as I see it, I tend to puke  . Luckily I grew up with an MSX (after my C16 broke down) and my eyes have never had to bear with those terrible colors.
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Posted By
Spektro
on 2023-08-03
16:41:46
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
@SukkoPera
It crossed my mind that there are pitch shifter pedals for guitars that can raise or lower the pitch. Would it be possible to implement a pitch shifter to the LittleSixteen that lowers the TED's audio output by 1 or 2 octaves? That would give us the much needed bass sounds without breaking the backward compatibility - every music piece done before would just sound lower. It would correct the horrible mistake Commodore made with the 264 Series sound
I've understood before that pitch shifting requires complicated electronics. But maybe nowadays there is a cheap IC that can do all the pitch shifting magic?
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Posted By
MIK
on 2023-08-03
12:43:26
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Ha! I will dig out my C16 Introduction to Basic Book which I can hold like Captain America and repel your attacks.
C64 lover... But so am I.
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Posted By
Majikeyric
on 2023-08-03
12:35:25
 | Re: LittleSixteen V4
SukkoPera What a great project, I'm very excited by all the awesome features !
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-08-03
06:46:26
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Call me a C64 fan again and I will hunt you down :D.
Or course you don't have to agree with me, but I still think changing the connector is the wisest choice. There has been quite some thinking behind this decision, see this.
As I always say, the project will be open, you will have the design files, so you will be free to restore the original connector and get your boards made that way, if so you wish.
BTW, that replacement CPU does NOT disable the tape port. It still works except that the machine loses control of the Datassette motor and you have to start and stop it manually. It creates bigger issues on the floppy port, basically breaking all fastloaders. This happens when you use a 6510 CPU. This board is subject to all those inconvenients if you do so, it's not if you use an original 7501/8501 CPU.
And well, I find it relatively obvious that this board should aim at being 100% compabile with the original, as otherwise it would be a pointless effort, requiring dedicated software that no one would ever write. The goal is to make the final 264 machine, "uncutting" all the corners that were cut during the original design. Now, if someone got that V364 speech circuit working...
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Posted By
MIK
on 2023-08-03
06:00:26
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Of course...?? Sadly there are replacement CPU ROMs out there that disable the tape port and have been used in more recent times when an original is not available.
Great, C64 fan remakes the TED series and replaces key feature that was actually better in the first place.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-08-02
08:20:49
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
@MMS: Thanks . I think it's just amazing that today one can design and build at home a whole home computer of the '80s. It just shows how much technology has evolved and how much knowledge and power are in anybody's hands.
While I'm not too fond of the SID in the C16 (it feels a but "out of place"), I'm not a fan of the C64 either. It's the only part of it that I deeply admire, so I just had to throw it in . We'll work on the DIGIMUZ next... maybe!
@MIK: Of course, this thing is 100% compatible with the original (it wouldn't make much sense otherwise), it can use the original ROMs (well, it actually MUST) and every port is fully working, including the datassette port. You might be right on the average, but there's like 10-20 C64 datassettes for every C16 datassette in existance, so it's much easier to come across one in good conditions. Besides, I also added a pin header with all the datassette signals, so it's very simple to wire a MiniDIN-7 plug if you want to connect a C16 datassette. If you don't feel brave enough for that (we all know soldering MiniDIN connectors is a PITA!), I've even designed a much-easier-to-solder adapter board just as well (cost is basically zero).
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Posted By
MIK
on 2023-08-02
07:42:52
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
If this mother board can use the original roms and the cassette port fully works, I believe the C64 style tape connector is a mistake... C64 tape decks are wildly over used thanks to most things being multi-loaders, and/or using loading screens etc.
The C16/Plus4 tape deck, most of them are in very good condition as the average game loaded between 32-36 on the number counter.
64k games on tape are also rare for Plus/4, 16k multi-loading games are even rarer.
And as a port to power a SD2IEC both C64 and C16 styles are supported.
Think about it..., the tape port was never an issue on C16/Plus4 like the joy ports were.
And a C16 to C64 tape port adapter does exist if people really want to use a cream tape deck - let them hunt down the adapter.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2023-08-02
06:14:24
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Wow what a sweet 264 product! Congrats!
Frankly speaking, if the original 264 machines would have the same features as this machine (SID, C64 compatible connectors) then the product could receive less toxic critics and punches from the press. Then they could focus on the advanced features, like more color, more available RAM in BASIC, much better BASIC, built in monitor.
Did I mention the built-in 3+1? Well... :-)
Sure, SID would have increase the cost, but an empty socket prepared to accept the SID could do the work, also could validate the higher price. The same for more RAM, though back to the 1980s 256KB RAM took much more space on the PCB than nowadays. Anyhow the preparation of the system to able to accept more RAM: that was completely missing. But not here
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-08-02
04:30:46
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
No worries, I also wanted this feature . But anyway, a good part of what's on this board was your design or your idea, so it was just right to add one more!
Thanks for the info about PAL/NTSC, we'll see about that in the future, there are also a few more things to address but we had already enough meat on the fire for this version, we'll have a lot to test.
Boards are finally in production, BTW.
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Posted By
TLC
on 2023-08-01
12:48:23
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
@SukkoPera thanks . I wouldn't have wanted to make trouble, I'm sorry for that .
Re. PAL/NTSC: the machines differ in three details only. 1.) Specific crystal (14.31818 vs. 17.73447 MHz). The oscillator circuit is otherwise the same. 2.) Specific Kernal ROM. PAL and NTSC Kernals differ in only but a few places. (It's the Kernal that sets the TED to PAL or NTSC mode.) 3.) RF Modulator unit. Different channel setup, different modulation parameters etc. etc. As the LittleSixteen doesn't have one in the first place, it should be of little concern I guess . Oh, and 9VAC ticks 60Hz in American machines, but that's not used in the Plus/4 for timing purposes, so it makes no difference.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-07-31
16:03:37
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
@TLC: Your desire is my command:
The board already supported having the Kernal+Basic+Function ROMs in a single 64k ROM in the Kernal socket, so it was rather easy to add a switch and give the possibility of using a similar ROM in the Basic socket. The only problem was finding space on the board, but looks like I managed. JLC was hesitating to approve the board, so I have managed to switch to the new gerbers before they started manufacturing it. Now we ONLY have to hope that this last minute mod doesn't break everything .
We'll see about the dual oscillator in the future, but what is required to make a board NTSC, other than a different crystal?
@Spektro: unfortunately the board also needs AC and I certainly don't want to come up with a circuit to recreate that from DC. C64 power supplies are easy to come by and I'm pretty sure we all have plenty already . I even designed one actually, but I won't share that as I don't have enough knowledge to design stuff working at mains voltage. Not that I have much to design anything at all tbh!
On a side note to my future self: I'm not sure the 6510 replacement circuit will work with SRAM, we'll see.
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Posted By
bubis
on 2023-07-30
12:18:41
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Impressive!
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Posted By
TLC
on 2023-07-30
16:58:42
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Looks neat!
I might ultimately build one*. (*I haven't even built the reSeed yet, actually, so I might be just better off not talking junk, see also: Life & Co.. After some struggling I seem to have a dedicated place to work on these things now, at l(e)ast.)
Two suggestions that come to mind for a possible V4b or V5 design (if you happen to plan on implementing one someday).
- A ROM mapper, something that maps 16k pages of two 27c512 chips (the maximum available capacity in 28 pins) according to ROM CS and some other signal inputs --> to Basic, Kernal, Func1lo and Func1Hi. (That'd at least help one to use alternative Kernals; for example, a localized Kernal with Hungarian characters, maybe some other language, or, JiffyDos, or the like. I'm not sure of the details, actually.) Maybe the use of a single 128K or even bigger Flash exclusively, could ultimately add a heap of available 16k pages , though, as I understand, with the addition of such factors, complexity and chaos escalates quickly . (One example, the addition of some huge / in-system programmable Flash, might just imply in-system programming capability).
- An alternative, dual PAL/NTSC oscillator (and some logic in the ROM mapper to automatically switch in a dedicated 16k Kernal page from onboard ROM). It isn't very difficult to modify a PAL machine to work in NTSC TBH, I have actually done that, however, some simple additional circuitry, which supports both systems by a matter of some config switch, could come handy, especially when we're talking about an already fully custom design. (Not a lot of people in PAL and NTSC lands own machines of the alternative systems, so, fixing and compatibility testing, if applicable at all, usually has to be resorted to emulators... so a by-design dual standard machine, might just add practical value.)
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Posted By
Spektro
on 2023-07-30
05:21:31
| Re: LittleSixteen V4
Looks great! A new 264 series computer after... how many years?
My only complain is the power socket. I was hoping to see a standard 12V DC socket.
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Posted By
SukkoPera
on 2023-07-29
16:43:40
| LittleSixteen V4
I have just ordered the prototypes for the next version of my C16 clone board.
Well, actually it's no longer a C16 clone, as we have finally made the last step that differentiated us from a Plus/4.
In fact, besides sporting all the features of V3, the new V4 of the LittleSixteen project introduces the following:
* 100% Plus/4 compatible User Port
* 512 kB Hannes-style RAM expansion
* Onboard SID (either 6581 or 8580+Digifix) + 3rd joystick port (SID audio is mixed with the TED/Ext audio with configurable volume but direct dedicated output is also available)
* Joystick swapper
* Ability to replace keyboard MOS 6529 with 74x273 (so that 6529 can be recycled for User Port, but that one as well can be replaced with a 74x654)
* Removed FB13 in order to reduce luma/chroma crosstalk and improve video quality (Thanks @TLC!)
* Direct TED output connector (experimental)
* Pin header with all tape signals (think Internal Tapuino)
* Pin header with all IEC signals (think Internal SD2IEC)
The board has only been extended on the left side, height is the same as V3, so it should fit any C64 case or a C16 case with "reasonable" modifications if so you prefer.
It'll take some time before they arrive, we have holidays, we assemble them, we test them, we fix what has to fixed, we make new boards, etc. so don't hold your breath, but hopefully this thing will be ready by Christmas.
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