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| | Previous Messages | Posted By
Litwr
on 2024-03-16
04:31:21
|  Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
@seff Thanks for this interesting information.
@MMS It is really interesting that the Atari 800 and Commodore 264 use the same CPU frequencies. But the Commodore is more advanced it uses only 5 clocks per line to regenerate RAM while the Atari uses 9. The Atari is slightly faster because the 264 had too many badlines but if the display is off the 264 is faster. Anyway the Atari 800 was a real miracle for the 1979.
And you are right, there is a lot of software for the Atari that uses the 80 column text...
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Posted By
MMS
on 2024-03-11
13:46:54
 | Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
Yepp, Plus/4 sold cheaper than the Tramiel based redesigned Atari 800XE.
Unfortunately that machine was not backwards compatibvle with 800XL, and in case on Plus/4 it also proved fatal (C64 compatibility). Despite newer look, it was basically a 800XL, and 130 XE had 128KB RAM.
Just between us: is you check the specs the Atari 800XE (and especially the 130 XE) were pretty good machines and accoridng to the specification, they are on par with Plus/4 or even better. 128 colors, 4 POKEY sound channels, 1.79MHz speed, good BASIC, OKish resolution (though looks a little more limited colors in gfx mode without tricks than on +4, but every gfx fit into 8192 bytes... they could have add few new, more colorful modes to the XE models). Still it still did not have 80 or 64 column text mode, made it irrelevant for Word Processing (though I think it is possible via a "normal" quality video output on a monitor even on 320 pixel resolution, as proved by few programs on Plus/4 too.
Was it readible on as CRT TV or monitor? I doubt, but still a nice achievement.
BTW BBC Micro could provide 640 pixels on a composite output, though I have no evidence it was sharp and readible
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Posted By
seff
on 2024-03-10
03:45:38
 | Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
Commodore Plus/4 price at Vobis in West Germany in 1987:
June 1987
November 1997
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Posted By
tanman
on 2024-03-09
10:37:32
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
I believe Comet acquired the very last remaining stock of the Plus/4 Plus Pack and advertised it aggressively during the run up to Xmas 1985. From middle December 1985, Comet reduced the price to £79.99 and all stock was depleted. In Jan 86 I was pleased to find out some school mates also received one for Xmas. We used to run Icicle Works competitions after school. Forward wind to the end of the year and the C64c Connoisseur's Collection was being sold by Toys 'r' us for a bargain price (£149?). I made the upgrade but made it a priority to reacquire a plus/4 20 years later.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2016-03-06
09:56:31
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
Thank you very much for this story!  We would have the completely different reality if $79 C+4 was available at 1984...
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Posted By
Darren
on 2016-02-28
16:47:11
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
Commodore 16 Starter kit, including datasette introduction to basic and 4 games, punchy , rolf harris, stellar wars and one other glof i think... 1984 Christmas UK £149.99 (1p change)
The plus 4 was £299 on its own then out of my moms reach for me for christmas..
Fast forward to 1985 C16 were down to £99 and the plus 4 down to £199 with datasette.
The C16 dropped to £79.99 and the plus 4 went to £149.99
The unit itself stayed at £149.99 on its own.
end of 85 C16 christmas time.. They tried the c16 with the two ronnies advertising it as a games machine for school kids. the pack i had then became £79.99
Mid 86 Not one to be found in retail, few left on woolworths/tandy stores for a knock down £49 price but not official I think.. No branding just reduced pricing to clear stock.
Radio rentals and rumbalows carried on with the plus 4.
SHOCK rock bottom price.. I have the box and packaging in conservatory..
The last effort to push the Plus 4 in the UK.
commodore plus 4 - plus pack.
Commodore Plus 4. rrp £149.99
Datasette. rrp £44.95
10 Games.. rrp £59.90
Joystick rrp £9.99
Total Price cost £264.83
All packaged and commodore endorsed price. With a new white sleave on the box..
£99.99
Yep they continued to try and sell it my brother in law was a manager at vision hire and they were selling them on the never never, have the computer and pay £2.50 a week over 52 weeks.
I was 13/14 then so please don't hold me in a court of law, i just remember it because i wanted a plus 4 or a c64 and got a c16 as money was tight... And I was grateful and thanked my mom and when I got my first IT pay check treated her to the £149.99 exactly back as a thank you for my first own computer.
I just remember the prices as my mom moaned a lot during the summer when the c16 dropped in price and she was still paying weekly to webbs the local eletrical store for the £149.99 one..
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2016-02-22
09:46:57
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
Thanks! It is curious that I completely forgot about price of my C+4 bought in the beginning of 1987.
IMHO plus4world misses a lot of economic information about +4...
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2016-02-17
18:15:58
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
Brian Bagnall's book talks about 600 thousand units to be made (worldwide, I guess). Actually it is very easy to turn an NTSC machine into a PAL one so I can imagine that part of the stock meant for the US market eventually made it to Europe.
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Posted By
JamesC
on 2016-02-17
17:00:46
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
@Chicken - I don't remember my source for 300,000 offhand, it's been too long. But something in the back of my mind tells me that the 300,000 estimate was for US production.
600,000 is an estimate of worldwide production of the Plus/4. 
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2016-02-17
13:51:35
 | Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
I didn't say the site is annoying. Just reading stuff like that over and over again for so many years is annoying. And you can still find a catchy headline AND stay closer to the facts
Another bad example: Even the photo pages in the German version of "On the edge" that feature the 264 family are titled "Totgeburten" (stillborn children) – despite Bil Herd saying in the book that – after the prices dropped – the plus/4 became what the (originally C116) idea was all about: a low cost entry-level computer (which had mild success).
I'm not argueing that there haven't been major marketing issues and the plus/4's introduction was a disaster. However, later on it sold quite well (in certain markets) and that's obviously ignored too often.
Litwr:
About software from Mexico … Read these pages. Somewhere, there's mentioned that some of Tri Micro's titles were sourced in Mexico. It also says somewhere, that around 600,000 plus/4 units were sold (in contrast to an answer, JamesC got some years ago – that was around 300,000).
https://web.archive.org/web/20050111032422/http://www.cbm264.com/tm/tms1.jpg
Just go on with tms2.jpg etc (last page is tms9.jpg).
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2016-02-16
11:04:20
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
I see a contradiction in the facts of the presence of C16/+4 at Western Europe after 1986 and the complete stop of software development for this platform since that time.
There are some explanations about the title " "failed Technology" from its author.
I had a look at the Forum you posted and I am sorry that someone said my page is annoying because of I mention the C16 as "failed Technology". However, that is just a Headline that should not be taken too serious, every page get's one that is something Special about the Computer. In the case of C16, it's not really the fault of the Technology, as you may know, the C116 was planned as a 49 USD Computer to compete with Sinclair under Mr. Jack Tramiel (President and founder of Commodore).
Later there was a C264 (79 USD) and V364 (149 USD) planned.
After Tramiel left Commodore in 1984, Prices shot up and the C264 became the Plus4 which costs 299 USD instead of 79. The TED was one of the best Video Chips especially in his planned Price class, simply it did not fit into the high price range that Commodore later wanted the Computers to be sold in. They marketed it similar to C64 but it should have been an entrance Level Computer below the C64 range. So the given Technology failed at least in so far, that it did not do what consumers expected for that high Price. Later on and especially in some countries, they were successful, because they were sold cheaper which was the original concept anyways. So would there only be the C116 or C264 for the cheap Prices, it sure would have had an bigger Impact on the market and they would have not got the Image of being "failed" [to compete with the C64].
To the numbers:
The numbers of Germany are offical Commodore numbers, given by Commodore Germany (Deutschland GmbH) Marketing Department. Those numbers are until 31st December 1993 and before.
For the world wide numbers, I got that from here:
https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Commodore_16
(The production of C16 worldwide are over 1.266.000)
I am not sure where this number comes from, as there is no source given. But I will search on more informations and always try to improve the page and learn more. Should I ever find a valid source, I will tell you.
The planned Prices for C116, C264, V364 etc. come from the developer BIL HERD, you can find my interview here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCNMkgYS03w
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Posted By
MMS
on 2016-02-15
18:32:02
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
OFF
I think that the Plus/4 price would never drop so much if they could keep the numeric keyboard of 364. Looked sooo much more serious computer...
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Posted By
SVS
on 2016-02-15
15:13:13
 | Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
I agree with ChickenOnTheRun regarding the (un)failed technology.
About prices, in Italy the Plus/4 was initially sold at 950000 It. Lira that is currently 490,00 Euro. It was circa the C64 price.
In the spring of 1985 I've seen an offer by a TV spot and went to a town 60 Km from my house to buy one for *only* 420000 ITL (that correspond to 215 Euro). I think at that time this amount was 2/3 of the average monthly payroll. The C16 costed 200000 ITL (105 Euro).
In the 1986 I was finally able to buy a 1541 for 390000 ITL (200 Euro). After a while the Plus/4 price drop down because the lack of sales.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2016-02-15
12:46:31
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
This "Failed technology" stuff (on the SCACOM site) is so annoying. I've read something similar in almost every article about the C16 and plus/4 since the 80s.
I'm not doubting that at first, the 264 family was a marketing failure – maybe even a disaster. However, when the price dropped, the machines did sell. That's a fact. And Commodore produced even more machines and not just sold what they had in stock. Sure, in many markets the C16 and plus/4 were underdogs. Nevertheless, there are certain markets where they were quite popular.
The machines (and their success) were always compared to the C64('s success). No machine can stand that comparison. It would be much fairer to compare numbers of machines sold to other homecomputers of that time. For instance the C16 and plus/4 were more popular in Germany Sinclair Spectrums.
I have only met one guy who owned a Spectrum in Germany and in every place I've lived/studied/worked I met some ppl who owned a C16 or a plus/4. Probably, even the Amstrad (Schneider) CPCs had less "success" here, leave alone real flops like the Tatung Einstein etc.
I'm not sure about the numbers on the SCACOM site. There's no source mentioned. I posted some numbers on this site ages ago that were published by Commodore in the 80s. I might search for those later on. I've seen too many wrong estimates which could be proven wrong by published numbers.
Somebody also mentioned a special deal with the Hungarian Ministry of Education (or whatever it's called), which made the plus/4 a common school computer in Hungary. Just search the forum, it was mentioned here before.
Btw, when the plus/4 was introduced here, the official price tag was around 1400 DM. I remember the TEST-Heft which reviewed some "homecomputers". The plus/4 did well, though, the grades were slightly better for the CPC 464. Of course, almost nobody bought the plus/4 for that price. But things changed a lot later on … Especially, when ALDI marketed the plus/4.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2016-02-15
11:53:20
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
A very big thank for the information. However I hope to get a bit more.
The English page for Commodore 16 in Wikipedia says "Beginning in 1986, remaining C16, C116 and Plus/4 inventories were sold at a much reduced price on the Eastern Bloc market, chiefly Hungary" - it should be corrected.
So some men at the Eastern Bloc made a good business. I may give the evidence that the selling of computers at USSR might give upto 1000% profit!
The mentioned wiki-page also contains interesting information about Mexico, where C16 were sold at 1985-92. It is odd that we have no any information about Mexican users of C16/C+4. 
The page at http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/227/commodore-c16/ gives information about C16 prices during 1985 (from £99 at the beginnig to £49 at the end of year) in UK. IMHO it was about from $150 downto $75.
I also found this very funny thread in our forum - http://plus4world.powweb.com/forum/3172#3180. It is so odd that C+4 was much cheaper than C16 at the end of 1984. It is very sad that the mentioned C16 advertisment video is probably lost forever.
BTW I should note the Austrian collector page at http://scacom.bplaced.net/Collection/16/16en.php. It contains the exact numbers of C16/116/+4 unit sold! This information shows that C232 family is more than 2 millions. It is curious to get such information about other countries...
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Posted By
Gaia
on 2016-02-14
17:12:52
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
I remember that in December 1985 we could buy our C16 for HUF 8 thousand in Szeged. Using the 'official' exchange rate of 47 HUF for a dollar it brings the price to $170. However, the offical rates at the time were a bit unrealistic though and of course there was a large profit margin added by the importer (Ápisz).
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Posted By
MMS
on 2016-02-14
16:21:25
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
I think there is a misunderstanding there: Mr.Traimler WANTED to have C116 as a $49computer to compete with ZX Spectrums. But he was fired before the release of the computer, and the new management made a very expensive computer from the very cheap one. And the they could not sell it
The package was not attactive enough for the businessmen, and not attractive for the gamers too.
(I think they never had a real business package: bigger houseing 364 with Numeric keyboard, 1551 + a serious business SW from floppy: sound more attractive, more business like computer. 128K or 256K RAM capability would make it more professional too (like REU for C64, GEOS) )
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Posted By
siz
on 2016-02-14
16:18:57
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
My plus/4 was 11.800HUF in 1987 or 1988 (I still have the price tag in the original box). Several years later (in 1993) I bought my 1541-II and it was still 10.990HUF back then.
That amounts now worth about 800EUR and 180EUR respectively.
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Posted By
Chicken
on 2016-02-14
15:59:27
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
Which Wikipedia writes that? It's definitely false information. C16s were available in Germany in 1986, 1987 and 1988. Not only was the C16 the first "Aldi-Computer" ever, those starter sets including a datasette and a BASIC course were also available at other store chains in that time frame. My elder brother got his in 1986 or 1987. The price at that time for the set was 149,00 DM. The plus/4 set (which was the second "Aldi-Computer") was 229,00 DM.
You haven't mentioned the plus/4, it was available as well. Computer store chains like "Vobis" sold it in the mid and late 80s (and in the very early 90s). Mail-order companies sold the plus/4 in the early 90s, too. It was advertised in probably every 64'er magazines of that time.
C64 is a different story. It was available even longer … Despite Amigas and Atari STs it was quite popular especially in the eastern part of Germany.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2016-02-14
15:45:20
| Re: Commodore 16 price at 1986
Hi! Yes, Commodore 16 and Plus/4 were available in Hungary,but origianlly at rather high price. I remember, at elementary school 6 (it was 1986 or 1987) I saw in a shop a C= Plus/4 for a whopping 42000 HUF. First I read 4200 and was very happy
At that time the HUF worth maybe 4-5x more than today, so you may calculate 590€ value in current money.
It was vey very expensive, so my parents bought a C16 in Vienna (it was cheaper there, and treated to be a less serious computer), maybe in 1988. That was expanded to 64K within 1 year.
The 1541/II was bought a little later, I think in 1990, also in Vienna. It was very expansive too, but I do not remember the price any more.
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Posted By
Litwr
on 2016-02-14
15:00:11
| Commodore 16 price at 1986
I read that its price was $49 at the end of 1985 in the England. Is it true? What were the prices for 1986?
Wikipedia writes that all C16 were moved to Hungary and Poland at 1986. So the final question: was it possible to buy C16 at Western Europe at 1986, 1987, 1988? Thanks for any information. I remember C64 at the shops of Berlin at 1993...
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