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| | Previous Messages | Posted By
gerliczer
on 2014-12-03
01:35:39
|  Re: Trackers ?
Good luck to your venture, MMS.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2014-12-02
19:45:09
 | Re: Trackers ?
OFF from trackers 
My aim: cheap and good quality music from Plussy, different from SID style.
Nothing groundbreaking, same as PC Covox ("poor man's sound card"), Speccy or CPC 8bit DAC trackers
Details:
1) C64 Joy input for sound: it is called Covox Voicemaster, and here it is:
http://www.thepyro.com/blog/covox-voice-master/
2) The thing I am talking about is is the SAME as the Covox Speech Thing for PC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covox_Speech_Thing
Definitely I want to build the same for Plussy, but not on Parallel port (Pc) but on User Port.
Same 8bit out at the same time, no bitbanging.
8bit out --> DA converter --> Analog sound on mono RCA out
3) As I know, ACIA (MOS6551) manages the User port in Plus/4.
Theoretically can push out max 19200baud (means 2400byte/second).
I am not pretty good at math, maybe the 2400 byte per second change rate will lead to nowhere.
(On my very old 268 16Mhz, my self made Covox card worth listening at >16KHz sample rate, may translate)
4) I do NOT want to realize a soft synth on plus/4. Too weak for that
And I know how much resource intensive it is; I know it since maybe 10 years 8or more?), due to Yamaha XG softsynthetizer I upgraded my PC to Pentium3.
5) I try a new way of music style on Plus/4. That is seems not utilized yet by C64 or C128 (?).
6) As I understood, Plus/4 has one of the strongest CPU from this MOS range.
I understood badlines, on the other hand you may switch off partly the screen (OK, no NTSC)
ZX Spectrum could manage 16000 Hz sample rate with the similar setup
(certainly via Interface, not via rs232 style (I mean ACIA could be a bandwidth limitation here). )
http://chipmusic.org/forums/topic/10202/sampletracker-on-zx-spectrum/
6) C64 has a certain kind of sound due to SID.
Has great artists, and great musics, but I also see on some recent youtube videos from the original greta artists, that they wanted the music to sound DIFFERENT, but the C64 has it's own limitations.
With an OFFLINE (and Free) Soft synth you may create any kind sounds, differ siginficantly from SID, and due to 8 bit mixing and playback it may sound much better than a C64 digi.
I can save the made sample from analog synth (eg. Moog Emu), downgrade to 8 bit on PC, and map into Plus/4 memory the PCM wav.
The lenght of the sound(s) are very limited by the available memory, but direct programming of the free / mixed waveforms also a possibility. (like the digidrums on TED).
6-8 pieces of 1-2KB samples still fit into memory.
7) I was not aware of the SID Card extra capability, the 8bit DAC extension.
Maybe I did not read the User Manual well enough 
So maybe really no need for Covox.
But it could be much cheaper than the SID Card with the SID chip, certainly with much less knowledge and support. Cost maybe 10€ or even less, together with the connectors.
To be honest, I really liked my covox sound card on my PC, till I had no money for a long time for Adlib or Sound Blaster. It was cheap, and sounds great.
8) There were some commercial 8its, based on the same concept and IC, on CPC
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Amdrum
9) No need to build by anyone.
On SW part may need help, but supposely it will be NOT you
I have one I build myself for my PC ~18 years ago , connecting to parallel port. Still working.
I just need to connect the pins to a User Port connector (I also have), the only thing is the power consumption, if the Plussy User Port 5V can provide enough, or should look for external one.
Mine is too expensive for today realization, as based on Ferranti ZN428e and some tantalum condens
The IC alone costs today some 10€ (chinese copy version is only 2€).
TI version DAC may have better result and reliability thana chinese DAC.
Hopefully you got an elaborate answer and could clarified the point.
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2014-12-01
01:36:47
| Re: Trackers ?
"Well, I like the MOD and SID music since I am 16, and the Chip music since I am 20 or so. I had cassettes fully loaded with Amiga and c64 pure awesomeness. So, it is really hard to break a >20 years old habit"
Well, that's what you have your mobile phone's music player app and MP3s or other music formats for.
"Benefits: You have no real limitation on the waveform and need no complex circuitry or complex player routine (like SID) to have a special sound with filters, etc. Certainly there COULD be some other limiations, how you can manage transient from one sound to the other.
Although FM synthesis really needs no real memory, I had some ridicoulously small .MOD chip tunes, had very special sounds, and only took 30-50KB. OK, still too big for 64KB, but they wrote for 16bit computers (not fully optimized for size), so you may get the point.
From sound wise chip digi music it does NOT differs soooo much from the SID music, but you NOT required to emulate the way how SID works inside, and you may use the extra CPU power to have a fourth music channle for eg. drums. But according to my view, the SID digi-player was a fantastic achievement."
I don't really understand where are you coming from, where are you going to and what do you want to prove with this? I feel contradictions. Please, elaborate (if its better that way, in Hungarian via personal messages).
"Yes, the SID Card (I have one too) has the 8bit port, but I am not sure, if it could be called Covox? It was used to digitize sound with the Disney sound device, but I am not aware of the opposite. rockmonitor and the others used the 4bit volume change method, so I have doubts, if the SID 8bit is so easily reachable? As an input, I agree. as an output, I have doubts, but maybe you are right."
That's completely wrong. The analogue input of the SID is completely unsuited to digitize music. It is useful only for tracing slow data changes like human controller movement. It was never really used for digitizing sounds. What I was talking about is the additional circuitry that is built-in in BSZ's card and could be bought as an add-on for Solder's card. That has real 8-bit DAC (AFAIR).
"The Covox via the ACIA is an easy and straighforward stuff. You just send the 8bit data to User port (sorry, C16, C116), and theouter 8bit DA IC will do the rest. The complexity of such a board is zero. You can make it (with a not precise) resistor ladder too, but the TI Ics do a better job. Sound is great, but you are right, you need a proper sample rate. I do not expect 16 channel of 16 bit samples to be played, but 4 time 8 bit one. "
There is no such thing as "via ACIA". The parallel output is driven by a 6529B. And you are talking about external hardware again, while previously praising the natural capabilities of other systems (minus Disney and Covox for the PC).
"Well, Trackers exists for ZX Spectrum, Atari XL (6502 based), Enterprise. I do not think that it would be a shame to have it here too. "
And they are unnatural kludges everywhere (minus the Enterprise with its 4 channels 6-bit digi capability), but at least they need enormous CPU resources for questionable results (as I said earlier in a different topic). Of course, the technical achievement must not be dispraised, but now it would be only a me too thing (as I said it too in the previously mentioned topic), so if you want it do it, but don't expect others to make it.
And what I really-really don't understand is how is the Moog emulator connected to this? Do you have the slightest idea how resource intensive is the emulation of a true analogue synthesizer? Apparently not.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2014-11-30
16:08:07
| Re: Trackers ?
Hi,
Well, I like the MOD and SID music since I am 16, and the Chip music since I am 20 or so. I had cassettes fully loaded with Amiga and c64 pure awesomeness. So, it is really hard to break a >20 years old habit
And Moog is full analog too..
Benefits: You have no real limitation on the waveform and need no complex circuitry or complex player routine (like SID) to have a special sound with filters, etc. Certainly there COULD be some other limiations, how you can manage transient from one sound to the other.
Although FM synthesis really needs no real memory, I had some ridicoulously small .MOD chip tunes, had very special sounds, and only took 30-50KB. OK, still too big for 64KB, but they wrote for 16bit computers (not fully optimized for size), so you may get the point.
From sound wise chip digi music it does NOT differs soooo much from the SID music, but you NOT required to emulate the way how SID works inside, and you may use the extra CPU power to have a fourth music channle for eg. drums. But according to my view, the SID digi-player was a fantastic achievement.
Yes, the SID Card (I have one too) has the 8bit port, but I am not sure, if it could be called Covox? It was used to digitize sound with the Disney sound device, but I am not aware of the opposite. rockmonitor and the others used the 4bit volume change method, so I have doubts, if the SID 8bit is so easily reachable? As an input, I agree. as an output, I have doubts, but maybe you are right.
The Covox via the ACIA is an easy and straighforward stuff. You just send the 8bit data to User port (sorry, C16, C116), and theouter 8bit DA IC will do the rest. The complexity of such a board is zero. You can make it (with a not precise) resistor ladder too, but the TI Ics do a better job. Sound is great, but you are right, you need a proper sample rate. I do not expect 16 channel of 16 bit samples to be played, but 4 time 8 bit one.
Well, Trackers exists for ZX Spectrum, Atari XL (6502 based), Enterprise. I do not think that it would be a shame to have it here too.
Peace !
http://journal.transformativeworks.org/index.php/twc/article/view/96/94
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2014-11-30
13:06:07
| Re: Trackers ?
Hi MMS,
I don't understand your craze for digital music on our machines. It is clearly underpowered to do anything else while playing some less than mediocre digi. Theoretically the Plus/4 could mix(play) 16 parallel 16-bit digital samples too, but at a ridiculous sample rate. If you are switching the screen on and off or from PAL to NTSC and back during playback, you will completely screw up the sample rate. Turn it off, turn it to NTSC on a PAL machine (yes, it will screw up the screen), that's the best you can do, but you still don't have sufficient amount of memory to store a reasonable amount of data, and even if you could play one sample in every rasterline you are still running only slightly above 15kHz. Solder and BSZ SID cards have an 8-bit DAC, AFAIR, so there is your Covox, but looking at some recent C64 demos like Vicious SID, there is a better way to play digi music using the sawtooth waveform of the SID.
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Posted By
MMS
on 2014-11-30
12:24:46
| Re: Trackers ?
To be really honest, I tried one on c64 (Rockmonitor 3), one on Amiga and one on PC (Impulse tracker), and none of them could do any music I would enjoy.
It is the failure of the tools, and not the cause of of my missing musical talents (eheh).
Question: theoretically Plus/4 could manage to mix(play) 4 parallel 8-bit digital samples together, if no downward conversion needed to 3bit TED output, but could send out to an 8bit covox? how much it helps if we switch off the screen during the border period (even switch to NTSC)? will it screw up the PAL screen too?
(BTW there is a GREAT Android the VA-BEAST (demo is available), that give you the full potentials of a MOOG Analog Synthetizer with all the oscillators, filters, waveforms. Just fantastic. Any sound could be made, you can downgarde to 8bit (4 bit, 3bit, 1bit (just for Yerzmyey )) )
http://www.planet-h.com/g-stomper-va-beast/
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-11-29
17:13:42
 | Re: Trackers ?
...which is the very last issue, Lone News 20. About unfinished stuff of this kind, I've seen a pretty neat UI version of TEDplay running on a Plus/4, I suggested to finish it and release but the author had a different view 
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Posted By
MMS
on 2014-11-29
12:42:21
| Re: Trackers ?
The Lone news with the Robot screen at start has a REALLY good article about the different routines, comparing them in an objective manner. Supposely few guys have some semifinished UI tool for TED music editing, buy too shy to release them, Maybe they are afraid of the nasty comments on their semifinished tools (but half way is better than zero, eh)
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Posted By
corpsicle
on 2014-11-27
15:14:30
| Re: Trackers ?
Csabo: i will read the article and try out future composer. Thanks a lot!
Degauss: you mean i could get a beta/alpha of your tool?? Yes please!
Going to a demoparty tomorrow so ill have time to play around with the Plus4.
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Posted By
Degauss
on 2014-11-27
11:09:23
| Re: Trackers ?
For Rocket-Science i hacked together some kind of tracker that uses DASM and Tedplay to give the illusion of a real tracker.
I planned to release this tool, but right now i've got very little spare time and the tool needs a lot of work to be halfway usable. Lets see, maybe i'll find time to code on this during the holidays...
@corpsicle: You can decide yourself: Wait until i get my a** up to finish the tracker or get an inferior version right now
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Posted By
Luca
on 2014-11-27
10:26:59
| Re: Trackers ?
Who've just composed a TED tune for his scrolltro with the good old TLCPlay (even though in a hurry with all the limitations because of it)? Me!
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Posted By
TMR
on 2014-11-27
10:04:47
 | Re: Trackers ?
Just in passing... i've never written a TED music driver (at least not to date) and the tunes in my games and demos are composed and coded by either Sean "Odie" Connolly or Matt "4-Mat" Simmonds. =-)
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Posted By
Csabo
on 2014-11-27
09:15:27
| Re: Trackers ?
Specifically for my player, I wrote a little article here:
Using LOD Player V2
This should be a good introduction to get you started in tracking... Well, I don't really know if it is, cause it never received any feedback whatsoever.
Also, Future Composer is a viable option. Should be a familiar tool and it is a real tracker that produces TED tunes.
As far as programming the TED, it's really simple. 2 channels, frequency only, one volume control for all, and one flag which switches the second channel from square wave to noise. I've been meaning to add a topic about this into the Encyclopedia, just never get around to do it.
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2014-11-27
01:51:36
| Re: Trackers ?
Well, first relevant document is a detailed system and TED register map. These can be found here on the site. I suggest going with Ultimate Map by SVS after you familiarised yourself with the system a bit.
The players by Csabo and TLC are available in source with some documentation and comments in the source. Follow the links in their names and find it in the lists of their products (LODPlay and TLCPlay). For the others... Well, binary is source and source is documentation. Actually, you may want to contact Luca. He had an issue of Lone News about TED music. Maybe he has access to the other players, and with the consent of their respective authors he may share it with you.
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Posted By
corpsicle
on 2014-11-27
01:23:55
| Re: Trackers ?
Heh ok.
I love the music for Rocket Science and Metamerism.
But i usually make more melodic stuff myself.
Im using sidwizard on c64 which is really an incredible achievement on the machine both in usability and technology.
The problem i see getting going on the plus4 is that i really wouldnt know where to start.
Ive written a tiny bit of assembler on c64 so im familiar with the very basics. Could you point me towards some relevant documentation if there is any? Also, are these playerroutines available somewhere to study?
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Posted By
gerliczer
on 2014-11-27
00:54:15
| Re: Trackers ?
"I wanna make music like Degauss. =D"
Well, then whip out your choice of assembler and go.
Actually, there are no proper "trackers" for these machines. There are some player routines made by Csabo, TLC, Degauss, Britelite and TMR, but that's all. And, probably, you should acquaint yourself with the term music editor. Tracker like composing is very likely wastes resources in these constrained systems, therefore sector based editing and replay is the usually followed course.
Personal remark: Please, don't make music like Degauss. I like more melodic stuff.
Apology to Degauss: I apologise for my comment about the soundtrack of Rocket Science. I didn't realise there are five songs and I recognised only the song change in the disk change part. Sorry for the harsh and unjust criticism.
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Posted By
corpsicle
on 2014-11-26
23:50:06
| Trackers ?
What are the TED trackers for Plus/4?
A lot of the trackers i find are for SID-card.
I wanna make music like Degauss. =D
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